14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

[Metahive]

So why revile the Daleks or the Founders then? After all, they too just think that everyone they consider assholes and isn't them deserves to suffer and/or die. Why are their criteria supposedly "illegitimate" but yours aren't if there's otherwise nothing wrong about collective mass-murder in principle?

Because they started it. Because self-defense is not murder. Because waging an aggressive war against another power is not the same as fighting back.

The Founders didn't start with the genocide attempts. It was the Cardassians and the Romulans who tried it first and that solely because they were intimidated by the Dominion's military might. And guess what, the Federation was OK with that. So tell me, why should the Dominion have gone soft on the Alpha quadrant when three of its major powers were willing to murder all Changelings just out of fear which is exactly the reason why the Dominion was founded in the first place?
The Dominion committed vile acts (ie. The Quickening), but if that is enough to justify genocide then mankind should have been exterminated long ago.

[TheHammer]

So why revile the Daleks or the Founders then? After all, they too just think that everyone they consider assholes and isn't them deserves to suffer and/or die. Why are their criteria supposedly "illegitimate" but yours aren't if there's otherwise nothing wrong about collective mass-murder in principle?

Because they started it. Because self-defense is not murder. Because waging an aggressive war against another power is not the same as fighting back.

The Founders didn't start with the genocide attempts. It was the Cardassians and the Romulans who tried it first and that solely because they were intimidated by the Dominion's military might. And guess what, the Federation was OK with that. So tell me, why should the Dominion have gone soft on the Alpha quadrant when three of its major powers were willing to murder all Changelings just out of fear which is exactly the reason why the Dominion was founded in the first place?
The Dominion committed vile acts (ie. The Quickening), but if that is enough to justify genocide then mankind should have been exterminated long ago.

Your assertion that the Federation was "ok with" the Cardassians and Romulans launching a first strike to annihlate the changelings is not supported in evidence. By the time the Federation condoned such things it was a far more desperate situation. From the Federation standpoint, it was essentially an "us or them" scenario and once things reach that point, the usual conventions are off the table. They apparently had come to the conclusion that this was their only real chance at victory, even if it potentially meant the loss of an entire race. It was justified because the alternative, defeat, meant the reverse scenario - potential annihlation of Humanity at the hands of the Dominion.

[Havok]

TheHammer, go watch the actual shows before you make dumbfucked claims like that.
As DXIII pointed out, Starfleet not only looks the other way, but they tell Sisko not to interfere.
The Federation was worried about a possible war, as this was well before things got to that stage. They may not have sanctioned the mission, but they certainly gave it their blessing.

[TheHammer]

A handy dandy transcript can be found here:

http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/467.htm

Starfleet command found out after the fact and they aren't the galactic police. The Romulan and Cardassian ships were cloaked and had a head start before anyone knew what was up. The only nearby Federation ship was the Defiant which would not have been able to stop the attack by itself even if they wanted to. Failing to send Defiant on a suicide mission hardly makes the Federation accomplices.

[Havok]

They could have CERTAINLY warned the Founders about the attack. They chose not too. What about this aren't you getting? This was a first strike that was condoned by the Federation that started a war.
How may have that have impacted relations with the Founders if the one alliance of solids that actually made a claim of wanting a peaceful coexistence had actually lived up to that, instead of allowing exactly what the Founders had always claimed would happen, to happen.

Oh and thanks for reminding me... the plan was the genocide of two races, not just one.

[TheHammer]

They could have CERTAINLY warned the Founders about the attack. They chose not too. What about this aren't you getting? This was a first strike that was condoned by the Federation that started a war.
How may have that have impacted relations with the Founders if the one alliance of solids that actually made a claim of wanting a peaceful coexistence had actually lived up to that, instead of allowing exactly what the Founders had always claimed would happen, to happen.

Oh and thanks for reminding me... the plan was the genocide of two races, not just one.

Choosing not to get involved is not the same thing as condoning the operation. There is no evidence that there was any open line of communication between the Federation and the Founders with which to warn them. Further, Jem Hadar had already attacked federation ships that entered the Gamma quadrant. So sending a ship in to try and find a random Dominion ship,assuming you aren't attacked on sight, and hoping that the message is believed and gets passed along in time would be dubious at best. Worst case scenario, the Federation is also implicated in the attack itself.

On your second point, since Jem Hadar are grown in cloning facilities I'm not sure you could consider it "genocide". You could always grow more if you wanted to, once you found a way to remove from their genetic programming the fanatical reverence they hold for the Founders and determined a solution to the Ketracel White issue. Remember, this was a genetically engineered species whose sole purpose was to act as foot soldiers for the Founders. Its another quirk of certain Dominion species that blurs the lines of conventional thinking.

[Metahive]

Choosing not to get involved is not the same thing as condoning the operation. There is no evidence that there was any open line of communication between the Federation and the Founders with which to warn them. Further, Jem Hadar had already attacked federation ships that entered the Gamma quadrant. So sending a ship in to try and find a random Dominion ship,assuming you aren't attacked on sight, and hoping that the message is believed and gets passed along in time would be dubious at best. Worst case scenario, the Federation is also implicated in the attack itself.

If Germany allowed the French to march through its territory to reach Poland and massacre all the Poles, that would make Germany an asset to the the deed, period. Nothing else here. The Federation controlled the wormhole access in the Alpha Quadrant and letting a large military force with fucking genocidal intent of all things pass without any overt counter action equals condoning the deed.

As for your handwringing about the difficulties of contacting the Dominion, how about just sending a probe or a beacon through the wormhole broadcasting a warning? The Dominion can be expected to watch their end of the wormhole carefully. You create a problem where none exists.

On your second point, since Jem Hadar are grown in cloning facilities I'm not sure you could consider it "genocide". You could always grow more if you wanted to, once you found a way to remove from their genetic programming the fanatical reverence they hold for the Founders and determined a solution to the Ketracel White issue. Remember, this was a genetically engineered species whose sole purpose was to act as foot soldiers for the Founders. Its another quirk of certain Dominion species that blurs the lines of conventional thinking.

There's an episode where a Jem'Hadar loses his White addiction and he immediately abandons the Dominon military and tries to free his brethren from their enslavement. They may be mass-produced designer babies but they're still sentient beings with the ability to make informed choices and once their artificial dependence on their creators is removed that might as well include turning against their former taskmasters. You're selling them short.

[Terralthra]

Choosing not to get involved is not the same thing as condoning the operation. There is no evidence that there was any open line of communication between the Federation and the Founders with which to warn them. Further, Jem Hadar had already attacked federation ships that entered the Gamma quadrant. So sending a ship in to try and find a random Dominion ship,assuming you aren't attacked on sight, and hoping that the message is believed and gets passed along in time would be dubious at best. Worst case scenario, the Federation is also implicated in the attack itself.

If Germany allowed the French to march through its territory to reach Poland and massacre all the Poles, that would make Germany an asset to the the deed, period. Nothing else here. The Federation controlled the wormhole access in the Alpha Quadrant and letting a large military force with fucking genocidal intent of all things pass without any overt counter action equals condoning the deed.

The Federation didn't control wormhole access. Bajor did, as was repeatedly hammered in on multiple occasions. And even that sovereignty was frequently abused, since Bajor had effectively a metaphorically brown-water military space fleet (fixed fortifications and planet-based assault craft). A combined Klingon/Cardassian fleet decloaked directly in front of the wormhole, transmits a message of their intent to destroy the Founders, and transits immediately thereafter. DS9 has not yet had the weapons and shields upgrades (implied to happen mostly between season 3 and 4, as it's not referenced until "Way of the Warrior").

What should they have done to stop the fleet? Keep in mind that the combined fleet was not under the control of the Romulan nor Cardassian governments, but DS9 didn't know that until they had intercepted the communique. Firing on them would be an act of war with two governments with which they have peace treaties, as would warning the Founders they are coming.

This was revisited in "Way of the Warrior," when DS9's crew wanted to warn the Cardassians about the Klingon invasion, but no matter what they did, it would violate one of their treaties, and they only managed to do something about it by fiat of having a known contact on-station.

As for your handwringing about the difficulties of contacting the Dominion, how about just sending a probe or a beacon through the wormhole broadcasting a warning? The Dominion can be expected to watch their end of the wormhole carefully. You create a problem where none exists.

Violates their treaties with both the Cardassian and Romulan governments in favor of warning a declared hostile power. Starfleet says "there's nothing we can do," while simultaneously saying internally that if it comes to a war, and they anticipate it will, they'd rather not be on the losing side. It's a pragmatic approach to take, especially since, as noted, there's nothing they can realistically do anyway. Also, why would the Dominion trust a Starfleet message in the first place? The whole hostile relationship is predicated on the Founders' distrust of solids.

[TheHammer]

Choosing not to get involved is not the same thing as condoning the operation. There is no evidence that there was any open line of communication between the Federation and the Founders with which to warn them. Further, Jem Hadar had already attacked federation ships that entered the Gamma quadrant. So sending a ship in to try and find a random Dominion ship,assuming you aren't attacked on sight, and hoping that the message is believed and gets passed along in time would be dubious at best. Worst case scenario, the Federation is also implicated in the attack itself.

If Germany allowed the French to march through its territory to reach Poland and massacre all the Poles, that would make Germany an asset to the the deed, period. Nothing else here. The Federation controlled the wormhole access in the Alpha Quadrant and letting a large military force with fucking genocidal intent of all things pass without any overt counter action equals condoning the deed.

As for your handwringing about the difficulties of contacting the Dominion, how about just sending a probe or a beacon through the wormhole broadcasting a warning? The Dominion can be expected to watch their end of the wormhole carefully. You create a problem where none exists.

As Terr noted, DS9 wasn't in a position to stop the fleet at the time they became aware of its presence. And its intent wasn't known until well after the fact.

If the Dominion were watching their side of the wormhole that damned closely they should have noticed the fleet of cardassian and romulan ships coming out of it. Remember, they weren't cloaked when they entered it. Don't ask me why they weren't cloaked, im guessing because they felt they'd need their shields during the journey... Even if you wanted to assume that they cloaked mid way through their transition to the Gamma quadrant the other side would still have witnessed the wormhole opening.

The idea of sending a probe or beacon through broadcasting messages sounds nice until you realize how very vast space is. Besides that, you'd still run into the same situation as before even if the needle in a haystack manages to find a Dominion ship - that the probe wasn't destroyed on site, that the message was recieved in time, believed, and transmitted on to the founders. And you still run the risk of being associated with the attack by having a presence in the gamma quadrant. It might have done them just as much good to have Sisko jump up and down on the Promenade screaming about the impending attack on the Founders. Your assertion that they "COULD HAVE DOME SOMETHING!" no matter how futile or pointless doesn't change that fact.

On your second point, since Jem Hadar are grown in cloning facilities I'm not sure you could consider it "genocide". You could always grow more if you wanted to, once you found a way to remove from their genetic programming the fanatical reverence they hold for the Founders and determined a solution to the Ketracel White issue. Remember, this was a genetically engineered species whose sole purpose was to act as foot soldiers for the Founders. Its another quirk of certain Dominion species that blurs the lines of conventional thinking.

There's an episode where a Jem'Hadar loses his White addiction and he immediately abandons the Dominon military and tries to free his brethren from their enslavement. They may be mass-produced designer babies but they're still sentient beings with the ability to make informed choices and once their artificial dependence on their creators is removed that might as well include turning against their former taskmasters. You're selling them short.

The point I'm making is that they are only sentient because they were engineered to be that way by the Founders - the same as with the Vorta. They don't exist "in the wild" and have to be grown via cloning process. That solitary example you gave is just as likely the result of an error in the cloning process as anything else. The example does indicate that the species would be capable of breaking their addiction to both the white and worship of the founders under the right conditions. So in theory you could grow new addiction free Jem Hadar.

---As an aside - It was really kind of fucking stupid for Tain to announce their intentions before they actually accomplished the deed. At the very least, the broadcast should have been delayed until well after the attack would have either succeeded or failed.

[Metahive]

This is all actually quite irrelevant to the main point, which is that that the Federation was actually hoping for the genocidal plan to succeed. If even the purportedly hyper-tolerant and meek peaceniks of the Federation are OK with murdering an entire species out of fear, why should they expect any mercy in return?

Also, Terralthra, what treaty obligations did the Federation have towards the Cardassians or the Romulans that might have prevented them from spoiling an action that was officially undertaken by rogue elements of their respective intelligence services towards their intended victims? Remember that in "Defiant" it was stated that the Obsidian Order was even explicitly forbidden to maintain its own armed forces and Dukat reacted with visible disgust when he found it out. It's also funny that you cite "Way of the Warrior" as a point in your favor when in that episode that Federation went as far as opening fire on their nominal allies to defend a third party from an unjustified attack. In "Improbable Cause" there wasn't even a token effort to thwart the genocidal attack as ineffective as it might have been.

[Terralthra]

Also, Terralthra, what treaty obligations did the Federation have towards the Cardassians or the Romulans that might have prevented them from spoiling an action that was officially undertaken by rogue elements of their respective intelligence services towards their intended victims? Remember that in "Defiant" it was stated that the Obsidian Order was even explicitly forbidden to maintain its own armed forces and Dukat reacted with visible disgust when he found it out.

The Federation doesn't know that at any useful point. The fleet decloaks, buzzes DS9, and transits the wormhole immediately. They send messages to Cardassia Prime and Romulus, which implies that they are not under Cardassian Central Command's nor the Romulan government's control, but it's encrypted, and the ships are well into the Gamma Quadrant by the time we see DS9's senior staff watch the message, forwarded by Starfleet. It has been, by that point, hours at minimum.

It's also funny that you cite "Way of the Warrior" as a point in your favor when in that episode that Federation went as far as opening fire on their nominal allies to defend a third party from an unjustified attack. In "Improbable Cause" there wasn't even a token effort to thwart the genocidal attack as ineffective as it might have been.

The Federation had peace treaties with both the Klingons and the Cardassians at this point. No matter what they did, they break one of them. The Klingons regarded their not joining in the invasion to be a breach of the treaty already, and the Federation took action on behalf of Cardassia in that light. Additionally, the mission undertaken had a practical, achievable goal (since it worked, obviously), and doing so was rightly regarded as an act of war by the Klingons, resulting in renewed Federation/Klingon war, despite them being, as you say, nominal allies.

You're saying that the Federation's morals are completely compromised if they don't undertake a pragmatically impossible mission on behalf of an actively hostile power which (as far as the DS9 staff knew, during the window they could've actually done something) broke two peace treaties, one of which they've been specifically ordered on multiple prior occasions to preserve at all costs?

The Fleet Admiral who briefs Sisko specifically says they are not hoping the plan succeeds, but that they effectively can't stop it, and since that's the situation, they'd rather it work than not.

[Havok]

I'm glad you keep harping on the fact that Fleet TaskForce Genocide is not under the authority of, well, ANYONE. That just makes the Federation, Cardarssians and Romulans, not attempting to stop it or send warning even more reprehensible.

It also invalidates any sort of treaty breaking argument, as as YOU have repeatedly pointed out, they are not acting under the respective governments that the Federation has treaties with.

And again, what would the repercussions be if the Defiant went speeding through the wormhole, uncloacked, broadcasting Tane's intentions and the plan on general channels?
The Founders would see that, like they have been saying, the Federation actually doesn't want a war. Have nothing to fear from the Federation and want peaceful coexistence. Instead, they do nothing and allow the attack to happen hoping someone else can do their dirty work, and prove the Founder beliefs that all solids, no matter what they say, are not to be trusted and want to exterminate all changelings, correct.

The RSE and CU also wouldn't have a leg to stand on in berating The Federation as they have openly declared that Tane is acting outside of their respective authorities and the mission had no official sanction.

[Terralthra]

I see Havok has moved on to "selectively ignoring facts in order to make a stronger weaker rebuttal" phase.

The only point at which they could attempt to "stop" the combined Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order is between when the first Warbird and Keldon decloak, and when the fleet transits the wormhole, a span of roughly 20 seconds.

In that brief moment, they have absolutely no idea that the fleet is not under the authority of the Central Command/Romulan Star Empire. You have to judge their actions by what they know at the time, not by what they found out hours later. So even if the facts are that the fleet is a rogue element on their way to commit genocide, Sisko, at the moment he had to decide what to do, did not know that. Opening fire on the fleet would, as far as Sisko's aware, break two peace treaties to protect...he has no idea, since he also doesn't know the fleet intends to go to the Omarian Nebula and genocide the Founders.

Second, even if they did possess perfect knowledge of the plan that Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order had formed and the lack of government authority over the combined fleet, what could they have done? Fired on them? Goodbye DS9, goodbye Defiant, goodbye any chance of holding the wormhole against the (perceived) inevitable Dominion reprisal, and the fleet would likely still be perfectly battle ready after blowing DS9 to smithereens. That's if the fleet even bothers to stop and fight. Given that DS9 has piss for weapons capacity at this point, and the tiny-ass engagement envelope, it's possible that even if DS9 opened fire, the fleet would just stay on course and trust their shields to take them through.

So, you think that Sisko should be omniscient enough to know their plans and their (lack of) chain of command, and then gamble the Federation's only chokepoint against the Dominion on the odds that a battle fleet of Romulan and Cardassian (two species not known for taking fire without returning it) won't blow his station away? I'm glad you weren't on the writing staff for DS9.


Sending the Defiant (or a runabout) through to warn the Founders is equally stupid. The Founders' defining trait for four seasons' worth of DS9 (and the implied centuries the Dominion has existed) is that they don't trust solids. That's the entire reason the Dominion exists! "What you can control...can't hurt you," remember? You think that they're going to trust a broadcast warning from the Federation, "Hey, by the way, a massive fleet of cloaked Romulan and Cardassian warships is coming to obliterate your home planet and everyone on it in a genocidal sneak attack. See, you can trust solids!"?

If Sisko/Starfleet tries to warn them, he can anticipate that the Founders wouldn't likely believe them (remember, Sisko doesn't know it's a Dominion trap), and even if they did, what then? The Founders would take it as further evidence that the solids can't be trusted, and continue with their plans to conquer the Alpha Quadrant, with the Federation as a vassal state surrounded by and controlled by the Dominion.