Remake the Prime Directive(RAR)

[Panashe]

Technological missionaries, people who would basically live on the low tech world for years and decades.

We are talking planetary populations here.

Probably we're not. Doing what I'm advocating in every city and hamlet would be impossible, instead set up a relatively small number of schools in existing trading communities (if such exists), or create them. You teach them, and then in time they teach others. The information will spread.

Often ones who are so low tech that their civilizations can't communicate with each other

What you teach would depend on the current tech level of the people you're trying to help. Maybe you'll start of with simple things like water wells, small dams, windmill pumps, wet agriculture. Follow that with rotating crops, nutrition and basic hygiene.

When they're ready introduce more tech, accept that this will be a process that might take centuries.

How much respect do you expect Federation citizens to show to things like human sacrifice

That would assume that this practice exists at all, and further that it's planet wide.

If any one cultures societal practices are too egregious, simple don't interact with them. It's a big planet and you don't (and likely wouldn't be a able to) have dealing with everyone.

Any mass education problem is going to run into problems when the science you want to teach them conflicts with their religion.

It likely wouldn't come up, certainly not automatically. A policy of staying away from local religions might be a good idea.

How many people do you think the Federation would need to send to properly uplift a planet like Earth around 0AD ?

It would depend on how many communities you're going to be working with. It might be just dozens, or it could be tens of thousands.

Where would Starfleet get that many volunteers ?

If the Federation had a population of 800 billion (from DS9), and you had the same percentage of the population volunteer as you do with the modern day peace-corp, that would be over 22 million volunteers.

Given how often the TOS and TNG Enterprises were the only ships in the area, Starfleet doesn't have enough ships to spare any for the uplifting.

While this might be administered by a sub-department of Starfleet, it also could be run by the Federation directly, or through the Member planets governments.

There also could be private organizations.

How would they transport them to the planet

It might be a case of contracting a private transport to deliver them to the planet, after that it would seem to me that having a small ship or station in orbit would be helpful. For communication, transport and logistics.

I don't think Starfleet has the resources to uplift even one planet.

The entire planetary population all at the same time? I wouldn't think so either.

You're talking about throwing their entire belief systems into chaos. Those gods ? Not real.

Simple, stay away from their belief systems, Concentrate on their life's and improving them, tearing down their spiritual beliefs would serve what purpose?

.

[Guardsman Bass]

I think the best time for the Federation to establish contact with a rising civilization would be when they detect artificial radio signals from the planet. A civilization that has radio technology is one that also probably has enough understanding of the universe around them to accept the idea of alien life and civilizations without thinking they're a bunch of star gods - especially since most of the alien civilizations in Star Trek are humanoid with a lot of cultural and technological convergence.

You also wouldn't want the Federation to simply show up with a large, warp-capable ship near their planet. Instead, have a robotic spacecraft sit at the edge of their solar system and establish radio contact and dialogue with the new civilization, eventually leading to in-person contact if the civilization desires to continue the connection.

[Simon_Jester]

One week it's ok to give weapons to stone age people to "level the playing field" (TOS episode I can't remember the name of), the next a space-capable and subspace-radio using species (Sarajenka) can't be contacted because it will DESTROY THEM even though their planet is about to blow up.

Those two examples were like 100 years apart, and even at the time the TOS example of giving gunpowder to primitive tribesmen was considered a seriously questionable and arguably stupid thing for Kirk to do.

Or it's ok to assist a government with capturing a fugitive and enemy of the state (Rogar Denar) but not ok to assist a government with capturing a fugitive and enemy of the state (Duras).

Denar was, from what I know/remember, a violent felon. Whereas the Duras family's various members were (more or less) the losing parties in a civil war. It might be reasonable to extend cooperation in capturing a 'ordinary' criminal (a bank robber or murderer), while not helping a foreign society capture 'rebels' or 'terrorists' who are actually parties to a political conflict within that state.

Imagine, say, the British petitioning space aliens for help in capturing the 'fugitive rebel' Continental Congress in 1777, and you begin to see the problem...

It seems in some cases, even when it hurts the interests of the Federation itself, at the expense of a bacteria, they wont touch it.

That part makes more sense if you assume that there are plenty of totally barren planets out there on which terraformers and systems like the Genesis Device could be tested.

I think the best time for the Federation to establish contact with a rising civilization would be when they detect artificial radio signals from the planet. A civilization that has radio technology is one that also probably has enough understanding of the universe around them to accept the idea of alien life and civilizations without thinking they're a bunch of star gods - especially since most of the alien civilizations in Star Trek are humanoid with a lot of cultural and technological convergence.

You also wouldn't want the Federation to simply show up with a large, warp-capable ship near their planet. Instead, have a robotic spacecraft sit at the edge of their solar system and establish radio contact and dialogue with the new civilization, eventually leading to in-person contact if the civilization desires to continue the connection.

This sounds like a healthy arrangement.

Contact with pre-radio/pre-atomic civilizations would be sharply limited, reserved only for emergencies threatening said civilization, or an overriding large-scale emergency threatening Federation worlds. If Ensign Ricky will die unless you make contact with a Bronze Age culture, sucks to be Ensign Ricky.

Contact with radio/atomic-level pre-space civilizations (i.e. those which do not have a background of space travel) should probably only be done at the discretion of the ship's captain, or according to the sort of specific protocol you describe.

[Purple]

I think you all are missing something. Something that I feel is very important. The prime directive is pure evil. It's that simple.

Doing nothing is an action in its own right. Yes, exposing primitive cultures to the federation might have all sorts of negative consequences. But on the other hand by refusing to uplift them but technologically and culturally you are condemning countless millions to lives of poverty, suffering and waste. What happens if you stumble upon a planet where people practice mass human sacrificial? Or a planet where millions are dying of war or a plague? By not stepping in when you could have you are in no uncertain terms allowing these events to continue and condemning these people to suffering. Imagine if space aliens had come to earth in 1940, seen the concentration camps and went "It's an internal affair. Let them sort it out." Would that not be morally wrong for them to do?

Honestly I'd scrap the whole thing and just implement a federation wide body whose sole purpose is to manage how to uplift every world we run into as gently as is possible.

[Lord Revan]

I'll have disagree with you there, sometimes not uplifting a civilization might be the lesser of 2 evils and uplifting would in fact be a greater evil, after all as big of tragegy world war 2 was, there was positive things that came out of it, like for example the idea that consentration camps are inherently evil, while during WW2 USA had it's own consentration camps (well interment camps if you want to anal about it) for american citizens of japanese decent or that nuclear weapons are something that shouldn't be used (please remember that neither USA or USSR had first strike policies during the cold war) without an extremely good reason.

so Prime Directive is not in fact inherently evil but the fact it's treated like an religious edict is what makes it evil. Now if Prime Directive was something like "You shouldn't interfare with pre-warp civilizations unless there's a good reason to do so and even then you should limit your actions to as little as possible" instead of the current "you will interfare even if doing so would save a civilization".

[Simon_Jester]

Purple, let's put it this way.

Which is worse: taking a primitive medieval culture with medieval concepts of justice and letting them squabble it out as medievals across the galaxy do... or giving them starships and letting them start picking fights on an interstellar level? The Federation has enough trouble with one interstellar polity that runs on characteristically feudal-barbarian lines: the Klingons.

It's not realistic to think that the Federation can 'fix' the cultures of all the alien species in the galaxy that do things it abhors. And giving someone powerful technology without letting their culture evolve to accomodate and understand it could have disastrous consequences. What would have happened if someone had given Tamerlane nuclear weapons? Or indirectly set in motion a chain of events that led to him getting such weapons?

Imagine a duplicate of modern Earth appearing in the Star Trek universe. Do you think that the modern US is an enlightened enough polity that it could reasonably be 'trusted' to have its own warp-capable starships and spread across the galaxy, interacting with still other cultures, possibly including less advanced ones? Or would it use that technology to exploit and oppress groups on its own planet, and even on others? What about Russia? China? Can every country that might acquire such technology be trusted?

Sure, in theory the Federation could keep up a constant presence over the low-tech world and constantly monitor the spread of any technologies it delivers. But that would require a quite heavy investment. Given the dozens of relatively primitive societies the crews of the Enterprise have encountered over two centuries of exploration, and the no doubt dozens more that exist... I'm honestly not sure the Federation has the resources or skill set it would need to even begin to tackle this task.

So a lot of the time, it'd boil down to giving people access to radically new technology and ideas with unforeseeable consequences for their society, many of which might actually be worse than the purely "normal" evils that would take place in a similar society without their intervention.

[Borgholio]

I agree *somewhat* with Purple. I don't think we should simply step in and stop war or plague from happening if we come across it. As horrific as it was, the Holocaust taught us just how evil such things can be, so we try to avoid similar things now. Same with the the entire Second World War...we NEEDED it so that we had a benchmark for how bad things could get in the future.

So the same goes for other civilizations. They need bad things to happen to them so they can learn from them and grow on their own. But giving them a little nudge here and there would not really be a bad thing. Instead of millions dying from a plague, a Federation operative leaves a molecular code behind on a scrap paper that a researcher will stumble upon and use to help stop the pandemic before it wipes out their entire civilization. On the verge of a nuclear war, disable the launch controls for the nukes so it might be a large-scale conventional war, but that would probably be better than a full scale atomic exchange.

For younger civilizations, still in the bronze age and such...have operatives go down as philosophers or astronomers, or even religious leaders to try and guide people to a better path. Imagine if Jesus was an alien, but instead of allowing Christianity to mutate into the various forms it did today...new operatives took his place and continued to guide the religion to one of true peace and enlightenment? Sure, that might not be a perfect example but you get the idea. A little nudge here and there to keep the world going in the direction you want it to will not deprive them of doing most of the hard work themselves, which they need to do if they are ever to be ready to handle advanced technology and space exploration.

[Lord Revan]

So the same goes for other civilizations. They need bad things to happen to them so they can learn from them and grow on their own. But giving them a little nudge here and there would not really be a bad thing. Instead of millions dying from a plague, a Federation operative leaves a molecular code behind on a scrap paper that a researcher will stumble upon and use to help stop the pandemic before it wipes out their entire civilization. On the verge of a nuclear war, disable the launch controls for the nukes so it might be a large-scale conventional war, but that would probably be better than a full scale atomic exchange.

For younger civilizations, still in the bronze age and such...have operatives go down as philosophers or astronomers, or even religious leaders to try and guide people to a better path. Imagine if Jesus was an alien, but instead of allowing Christianity to mutate into the various forms it did today...new operatives took his place and continued to guide the religion to one of true peace and enlightenment? Sure, that might not be a perfect example but you get the idea. A little nudge here and there to keep the world going in the direction you want it to will not deprive them of doing most of the hard work themselves, which they need to do if they are ever to be ready to handle advanced technology and space exploration.

the problem with this is that how do you prevent your operative from becoming corrupt and abusing his/her "divine" authority?

personally I think that interfering should an "nuclear option" aka something you wouldn't want to do if there was any practical way of avoiding it and even if that was the only practical option you should do as little as possible.

[tezunegari]

So the same goes for other civilizations. They need bad things to happen to them so they can learn from them and grow on their own. But giving them a little nudge here and there would not really be a bad thing. Instead of millions dying from a plague, a Federation operative leaves a molecular code behind on a scrap paper that a researcher will stumble upon and use to help stop the pandemic before it wipes out their entire civilization. On the verge of a nuclear war, disable the launch controls for the nukes so it might be a large-scale conventional war, but that would probably be better than a full scale atomic exchange.

For younger civilizations, still in the bronze age and such...have operatives go down as philosophers or astronomers, or even religious leaders to try and guide people to a better path. Imagine if Jesus was an alien, but instead of allowing Christianity to mutate into the various forms it did today...new operatives took his place and continued to guide the religion to one of true peace and enlightenment? Sure, that might not be a perfect example but you get the idea. A little nudge here and there to keep the world going in the direction you want it to will not deprive them of doing most of the hard work themselves, which they need to do if they are ever to be ready to handle advanced technology and space exploration.

But this is exactly what the Prime Directive wants to avoid - forging societies/worlds in your image.
Their culture should develope on its own without influence from outside, so that their culture can be unique and add to the galactic society instead of being a cookie-cutter copy of something else.

And what about the time when these people learn that their cherished historical people or religious icons/saints were aliens manipulating them onto a path of cultural development.

Does that mean these aliens will suffer disease, war and famine and possibly extinction by their own hands? Unfortunately yes.

How easy would it be for a Cuba Crisis equivalent to spiral into open war because a General informs his Head of State that their nukes are suddenly useless.

The best way the Federation can act, is to protect the planets from outside threats that don't involve informing the people of these worlds.

But cultural growth comes with a cost that usually is paid in blood and suffering.

If a culture is using radio signals to call for help though, or a simply "Is someone out there?" signal, then you might debate about how ready they are for contact.

One of the criteria I would like to see is secular governments or at least theocracies that grant freedom of (and from) religion as a basic inalienable right.

[Lord Revan]

we should also remember that Prime Directive don't protect just the primitive civilizations from exploitation it also protects Starfleet Personel from their desire to "play god" since no matter how good your intentions are the urge to shape the world to your image is strong, probably too strong for most people.

sure some cultures will be lost because they self destructed but there's a bigger picture to consider here and robbing a culture of it's individuality cause you didn't like some aspects of it isn't really worth it, in fact you might end up with planetary equilevant of the "preacher's daugther" problem cause you tried to mold the culture to what you thought was right.

[Purple]

Honestly I can not agree with you on the grounds that you observe cultures as if they were some sort of entities that are so important that it's fine to sacrifice the lives of actual people existing in the here and now for a possible future benefit to them. This is just plain nonsense. As far as I am concerned allowing people to suffer just so that their culture can "mature" in many generations is just plain morally abhorrent. It's basically the equivalent of walking past someone being raped and comment "A bit of trauma builds character." I'd rather do my best to uplift them culturally and than technologically than just shrug my shoulders at their suffering. I'd rather kill the culture to save the people than the other way around. Because "culture" is a worthless abstract concept and the people are very real.

[tezunegari]

Honestly I can not agree with you on the grounds that you observe cultures as if they were some sort of entities that are so important that it's fine to sacrifice the lives of actual people existing in the here and now for a possible future benefit to them. This is just plain nonsense. As far as I am concerned allowing people to suffer just so that their culture can "mature" in many generations is just plain morally abhorrent. It's basically the equivalent of walking past someone being raped and comment "A bit of trauma builds character." I'd rather do my best to uplift them culturally and than technologically than just shrug my shoulders at their suffering. I'd rather kill the culture to save the people than the other way around. Because "culture" is a worthless abstract concept and the people are very real.

1. The arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively
2. The ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society
3. Biology[...]
4. Agriculture

I use the second definition when I say their culture must develope in its own.

Also the rape analogy falls under the outside threat excemption anyways, unless you can rape yourself.

It's more like letting someone touch a hot stove so they learn not to do it in my opinion.

Or how would you feel towards an alien race when they reveal that Hitler, Stalin or Robbespierre was one of them and tried to steer humanity "in the right direction"?

[Purple]

I use the second definition when I say their culture must develope in its own.

I know exactly what you mean. I just disagree with it. I do not feel that it is better to let the ideas, customs, and social behavior of a particular people or society develop "naturally" if that means more suffering than that which would occur if we help it along.

[Borgholio]

The best way the Federation can act, is to protect the planets from outside threats that don't involve informing the people of these worlds.

I can get behind this idea, mostly. I still think that, at the very least, interfering with a culture to prevent a *literal* civilization-ending disaster should be permitted. Plague, nuclear missiles actually in the air, etc...

[Eternal_Freedom]

Honestly, the analogy of an alien race looking at 1940 and chosing to ignore the concentration camps is a bad one. Imagine, for instance, if said aliens were looking at early 1945 instead, when the Allies are bombing the shit out of Germany and Japan and the Russians are advancing on Berlin? What if those aliens intervened to save the nations under such an assault and allowed Hitler's Germany to survive?

I can easily understand why the Federation want to stay out of such wars, it's a shitstorm. Witness for instance, "Pen Pals," when everyone is arguing to intervene and save the pre-warp civilisation, and Picard asks "What about if it's a war?" they all go quiet. Or Stargate's "The Other Side," when SG-1 ends up helping a fascist state because they don't have the full picture.

[Purple]

They have FTL capable spacecraft. They could easily just zip across the system planting remote controlled probes to get years of history in terms of radio signals. From that point on it's just data analysis.

[Simon_Jester]

One of the criteria I would like to see is secular governments or at least theocracies that grant freedom of (and from) religion as a basic inalienable right.

Insisting on freedom of conscience is a tricky thing, because in Star Trek you run into some cases of societies whose gods are actually real, or at least can make a very convincing argument for it.

At what point is demanding that a bunch of aliens stop worshiping a god that actually exists more disruptive and harmful to them than the alternative?

Honestly I can not agree with you on the grounds that you observe cultures as if they were some sort of entities that are so important that it's fine to sacrifice the lives of actual people existing in the here and now for a possible future benefit to them. This is just plain nonsense...

Well, the point is more that if you decide to arbitrarily freeze someone's cultural development now and give them advanced technologies... you risk creating a whole new type of crisis. People's understanding of how to live with each other, and with technology, evolves over time. If you short-circuit that evolutionary process there is a real danger that people will start using the technology in ways that were very much 'not as intended' and that result in disastrous consequences for everyone involved.

This risk is not such a big deal if you talk about a specific medicine to cure a specific plague. It's a HUGE issue if, say, you decide to land on an alien planet's version of modern sub-Saharan Africa and start handing out replicators to get rid of famine nd pandemics on a continent-wide scale. How long will it be before some warlord tries to figure out how to replicate nerve gas or a nuclear bomb?

As far as I am concerned allowing people to suffer just so that their culture can "mature" in many generations is just plain morally abhorrent. It's basically the equivalent of walking past someone being raped and comment "A bit of trauma builds character." I'd rather do my best to uplift them culturally and than technologically than just shrug my shoulders at their suffering. I'd rather kill the culture to save the people than the other way around. Because "culture" is a worthless abstract concept and the people are very real.

And if as a result you wind up surrounded by these bizarre cultural man-child civilizations that still adhere to all sorts of medieval customs but have modern technology? As I said, one set of Klingons is enough trouble.

Or are you proposing to forcibly conquer literally all civilizations that don't think as you want them to think, and re-educate them into thinking like you? Because if so, you are so far from the Star Trek Federation and its consensual organization that there's no comparison.

They have FTL capable spacecraft. They could easily just zip across the system planting remote controlled probes to get years of history in terms of radio signals. From that point on it's just data analysis.

At this point you're assuming a capability they may not have.

I mean sure, you can collect information on the history of a planet according to its radio broadcasts by zipping a few light-years away and planting probes. In a lot of cases, this won't help. For instance, in the World War Two case, all you'd really learn is that there are two sides, and that both sides accuse each other of horrible crimes. To substantiate these accusations you'd need to closely examine what's actually happening on the ground... which would require you to intervene and (presumably) halt the conflict while you figure out which side is in the right.

As much to the point, what if you go through this elaborate process and still screw up anyway? What if the good guys lose while you're busy trying to figure out which side is good? What if you get your analysis wrong because you just believed a load of bullshit radio propaganda from the bad guys' side?

The issue here is that making the active decision to become a non-neutral participant in an internal conflict carries moral hazard. There is a very real risk of making things actively much, much worse than they have to be. And just saying "but I intend to make things better!" carries very little weight.

[Purple]

Well, the point is more that if you decide to arbitrarily freeze someone's cultural development now and give them advanced technologies... you risk creating a whole new type of crisis. People's understanding of how to live with each other, and with technology, evolves over time. If you short-circuit that evolutionary process there is a real danger that people will start using the technology in ways that were very much 'not as intended' and that result in disastrous consequences for everyone involved.

This risk is not such a big deal if you talk about a specific medicine to cure a specific plague. It's a HUGE issue if, say, you decide to land on an alien planet's version of modern sub-Saharan Africa and start handing out replicators to get rid of famine nd pandemics on a continent-wide scale. How long will it be before some warlord tries to figure out how to replicate nerve gas or a nuclear bomb?

I am curious as to why you assume anyone would just randomly start handing out tech? Especially in such an unbalanced and careless way. It's like you are trying to make a grotesque caricature of it. If anything, I would show up and show off my fancy tech bling but impose strict conditions on how much I give out and to whom. More on this later.

And if as a result you wind up surrounded by these bizarre cultural man-child civilizations that still adhere to all sorts of medieval customs but have modern technology? As I said, one set of Klingons is enough trouble.

Or are you proposing to forcibly conquer literally all civilizations that don't think as you want them to think, and re-educate them into thinking like you? Because if so, you are so far from the Star Trek Federation and its consensual organization that there's no comparison.

What I propose is simple. Show up with your fancy tech and offer it up at a reasonable rate to whom ever is willing to make reciprocal steps toward us in terms of reshaping their culture. Want a cure for that plague? First stop burning jews for poisoning your wells. Want a better new crop strain that will prevent famine? Right after we handle these civil rights issues... Using our tech to fight your neighbors and be mean and against our rules? Oh my, did all your replicators suddenly stop working? Totally not us.

Basically, take the time to slowly over a period of decades or longer reshape their culture through a voluntary transformation in exchange for gift. Also, open up universities and embassies where the brightest and best from each culture to educate and uplift to a level where they can understand the technology and not just use it. That way by the time I am done there is an actual functional federation grade planet there.

At this point you're assuming a capability they may not have.

I mean sure, you can collect information on the history of a planet according to its radio broadcasts by zipping a few light-years away and planting probes. In a lot of cases, this won't help. For instance, in the World War Two case, all you'd really learn is that there are two sides, and that both sides accuse each other of horrible crimes. To substantiate these accusations you'd need to closely examine what's actually happening on the ground... which would require you to intervene and (presumably) halt the conflict while you figure out which side is in the right.

As much to the point, what if you go through this elaborate process and still screw up anyway? What if the good guys lose while you're busy trying to figure out which side is good? What if you get your analysis wrong because you just believed a load of bullshit radio propaganda from the bad guys' side?

The issue here is that making the active decision to become a non-neutral participant in an internal conflict carries moral hazard. There is a very real risk of making things actively much, much worse than they have to be. And just saying "but I intend to make things better!" carries very little weight.

I am surprised at this massive level of fear induced paralysis. Seriously. Sure, you can make things worse. But you can also make things better. The only thing you are sure is that by doing nothing you are allowing things to be bad. So by what reason would you not take a potential good, even if it is a gamble over a certain bad?

Think of it this way. Someone offers to play a game with you. If you lose, you have to pay $10. If you win, you get $10. But if you decline to play at all he will rob you and take $5. Is the logical step here not to gamble?

[bilateralrope]

What I propose is simple. Show up with your fancy tech and offer it up at a reasonable rate to whom ever is willing to make reciprocal steps toward us in terms of reshaping their culture. Want a cure for that plague? First stop burning jews for poisoning your wells. Want a better new crop strain that will prevent famine? Right after we handle these civil rights issues... Using our tech to fight your neighbors and be mean and against our rules? Oh my, did all your replicators suddenly stop working? Totally not us.

How much manpower will be needed to monitor that many civilizations ?

Does the Federation have that much to spare ?

[Purple]

What I propose is simple. Show up with your fancy tech and offer it up at a reasonable rate to whom ever is willing to make reciprocal steps toward us in terms of reshaping their culture. Want a cure for that plague? First stop burning jews for poisoning your wells. Want a better new crop strain that will prevent famine? Right after we handle these civil rights issues... Using our tech to fight your neighbors and be mean and against our rules? Oh my, did all your replicators suddenly stop working? Totally not us.

How much manpower will be needed to monitor that many civilizations ?

Does the Federation have that much to spare ?

It's the federation. They have enough stuff to spare that their flagship can stop by every single interesting anomaly and perform research. I am sure we could gather up some volunteers from the civilized worlds to form the bulk of our forces.

[Lord Revan]

What I propose is simple. Show up with your fancy tech and offer it up at a reasonable rate to whom ever is willing to make reciprocal steps toward us in terms of reshaping their culture. Want a cure for that plague? First stop burning jews for poisoning your wells. Want a better new crop strain that will prevent famine? Right after we handle these civil rights issues... Using our tech to fight your neighbors and be mean and against our rules? Oh my, did all your replicators suddenly stop working? Totally not us.

How much manpower will be needed to monitor that many civilizations ?

Does the Federation have that much to spare ?

It's the federation. They have enough stuff to spare that their flagship can stop by every single interesting anomaly and perform research. I am sure we could gather up some volunteers from the civilized worlds to form the bulk of our forces.

that exploration and research is the primary job of the Enterprise crew you know.

Also I think you're (perhaps intentionally) underestimating the administrative and logistical demands your idea would put on the federation, it wouldn't be unreasonble to assume that for every "field agent" you'd have at least 10 people working to make sure they do their job properly and have the resources to do so.

Then there's the fact you need to train your people as well since they'll have to interact with an literal alien culture, unless you want to force your culture on them, in which case a)it's against the founding princibles of the federation b)which culture are you speaking of human, andorian, vulcan, tellerite or maybe one of the dozens of others the UFP has?

Your proposal is naive at best.

[Eternal_Freedom]

What I propose is simple. Show up with your fancy tech and offer it up at a reasonable rate to whom ever is willing to make reciprocal steps toward us in terms of reshaping their culture....

Basically, take the time to slowly over a period of decades or longer reshape their culture through a voluntary transformation in exchange for gift.

Yeah, just bribe them to reshape their culture. Because that will totally always work. Teach them over decades that if they do the "right" thing they get a nice shiny reward...with no built-in moral impetus to be "good," just the greed for more fancy sky-tech.

All your talk of "reshaping their culture" is...pretty fascist to be honest. At want point will you draw the line? Obviously we could all agree that a Nazi-Germany of North Korea should be changed...but given the Federation we see in TNG, what if they found a functioning capitalist society with no atrocites ongoing? Should they be made to "reshape their culture" just to fit with Federation ideals by bribing them with technology?

Think of it this way. Someone offers to play a game with you. If you lose, you have to pay $10. If you win, you get $10. But if you decline to play at all he will rob you and take $5. Is the logical step here not to gamble?

Actually, yes that is the logical step, as it minimizes your losses.

[Purple]

Yeah, just bribe them to reshape their culture. Because that will totally always work. Teach them over decades that if they do the "right" thing they get a nice shiny reward...with no built-in moral impetus to be "good," just the greed for more fancy sky-tech.

The first generation will do it out of greed. Their children as well. Their children will do it because they have realized it works, and works good and keeps everyone happy. Their children will do it because that's all they know off.

All your talk of "reshaping their culture" is...pretty fascist to be honest. At want point will you draw the line? Obviously we could all agree that a Nazi-Germany of North Korea should be changed...but given the Federation we see in TNG, what if they found a functioning capitalist society with no atrocites ongoing? Should they be made to "reshape their culture" just to fit with Federation ideals by bribing them with technology?

I am going to go with yes. A functional capitalist society even with socialism and what not is still hell compared to the federation or at least the utopian ideals it represents. Although with them we can afford to only fix any glaring issues that might crop up and put them on a back burner compared to medieval hellholes with racism and plague. As to what culture to pick to enlighten these people toward, I am going to go with what ever federation member is willing to put the most effort into that particular planet. This is purely for convenience sake as they are most likely to provide most of the people who in turn would be most familiar with their own culture.

And yes, sure its slightly fascist. But I'd rather pay that price if that's what it takes than allow people to suffer needlessly for the sake of saying that I preserved their freedom. Something which to me frankly, much like the prime directive sounds like a way of inflating ones ego about not helping people when you really could.

Actually, yes that is the logical step, as it minimizes your losses.

I disagree. You are not minimizing losses but accepting the lesser of two evils as better than trying to achieve the good.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah, just bribe them to reshape their culture. Because that will totally always work. Teach them over decades that if they do the "right" thing they get a nice shiny reward...with no built-in moral impetus to be "good," just the greed for more fancy sky-tech.

The first generation will do it out of greed. Their children as well. Their children will do it because they have realized it works, and works good and keeps everyone happy. Their children will do it because that's all they know off.

And what happens when they are up to the same level as the Federation? Their whole culture, a brand-new one thanks to you deciding "fuck whatever you people came up with, my idea is best" that is based around getting fun new stuff for being "good." What happens when no new shiny tech arrives? THe whole basis of that new culture is ripped away and you're even more fucked, because now this new culture has far more advanced technology to destroy itself with.

All your talk of "reshaping their culture" is...pretty fascist to be honest. At want point will you draw the line? Obviously we could all agree that a Nazi-Germany of North Korea should be changed...but given the Federation we see in TNG, what if they found a functioning capitalist society with no atrocites ongoing? Should they be made to "reshape their culture" just to fit with Federation ideals by bribing them with technology?

I am going to go with yes. A functional capitalist society even with socialism and what not is still hell compared to the federation or at least the utopian ideals it represents. As to what culture to pick, I am going to go with what ever federation member is willing to put the most effort into that particular planet.

The Federation is paradise because it has the technology to eliminate hunger, plague, poverty, etc. Fine. Now tell me why that peaceful, prosperous capitalist culture can't reach the same level. The Ferengi manage it despite being capitalists in the extreme...without most of the atrocities of Earth's history, as Quark points out on occasion.

If the society is "hell" then help them, but don't make it conditional on changing their entire fucking culture.

And yes, sure its slightly fascist. But I'd rather pay that price if that's what it takes than allow people to suffer needlessly for the sake of saying that I preserved their freedom. Something which to me frankly, much like the prime directive sounds like a way of inflating ones ego about not helping people when you really could.

You missed the point when I asked where you draw the line. Suppose you found this 2000-era planet that had a capitalist culture but was peaceful and stable. Would you deny them access to help fromt he "hell" they live in (as you so aptly put it) because they don't want to change the culture that has, for them, worked so well? How does that make you any better than those of us who wish to be mroe cautious? Ignoring the fact that "we'll help you if you change a few things we don't like" is pretty counter to the Federation's utopian ideals of freedom as it is.

In fact, you going around offering help but with hefty conditions attached is exactly what the (flawed) Prime Directive is supposed to stop; you're playing god!

Actually, yes that is the logical step, as it minimizes your losses.

I disagree. You are not minimizing losses but accepting the lesser of two evils as better than trying to achieve the good.

Well you didn't quote the odds of winning or losing so I can't work out probabilities for you. Even so, only a total moron gambles when he doesn't know the odds, so not gambling is, based on what you said, still logical.

[bilateralrope]

What I propose is simple. Show up with your fancy tech and offer it up at a reasonable rate to whom ever is willing to make reciprocal steps toward us in terms of reshaping their culture. Want a cure for that plague? First stop burning jews for poisoning your wells. Want a better new crop strain that will prevent famine? Right after we handle these civil rights issues... Using our tech to fight your neighbors and be mean and against our rules? Oh my, did all your replicators suddenly stop working? Totally not us.

How much manpower will be needed to monitor that many civilizations ?

Does the Federation have that much to spare ?

It's the federation. They have enough stuff to spare that their flagship can stop by every single interesting anomaly and perform research. I am sure we could gather up some volunteers from the civilized worlds to form the bulk of our forces.

That is one ship, with a primary mission of exploration, a crew measured in the hundreds, studying each anomaly for days or weeks. Then they leave for the next one.

To manipulate a planetary civilization you'll need enough people spread across the entire planet to be able to know what is going on. We are talking civilizations without radio here. The only way to learn anything is to have people everywhere and still have cooperation from the locals. Locals who may very well decide to not tell you about the things they know you won't like, because they don't want you to punish them for following their traditions.
So I'm thinking thousands of people as a low end estimate. Who have to remain for multiple generations.

So no, you haven't convinced me that the Federation has the manpower to handle manipulating even one planet into a culture they like.

And that's without considering other people, like the Klingon's or Romulans trying to interfere to shape the planet in the direction they want. Maybe because they think they know better than you do, maybe because they are just doing it to hurt you and they don't care about anyone else caught in the crossfire.