Star Trek: Discovery

[Lord Revan]

well romulan style cloaks have to be more then simply a hologramic "shell" as they protect from sensors as well as mark I eyeball. As for the holoship how much protection would it really need it was after all only suppose to be not seen by what appears to be a pre-industrial era civilization so as long as no-one physically touches it a simple visual "cloak" is enough.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, I suspect the holoship was mostly a visual cloak rather than a full cloak of emissions and other detectable metrics. It's a bit surprising that they didn't detect the holoship in Insurrection earlier... but then they weren't looking for it until they figured that out.

[Batman]

The chances of somebody accidentally walking into it are also relatively small when that thing is resting at the bottom of a lake

[Elheru Aran]

Ah, that's true, it wasn't ever cloaked when it was actually in space was it IIRC?

[Khaat]

I would have to conclude that the Treaty of Algernon covers Federation employment of cloaks in war or on starships. The Federation still uses them for science (the duckblind in Who Watches the Watchers.)

Come to think of it, do we have any canon info on how the Romulan tech works? Could it actually be some form of hologram setup, and the Romulans just got a lucky R&D break ahead of most other warp-capable civilizations in the Alpha Quadrant?

We do hear a little about how the output from the engines has to be carefully balanced, or the cloak is compromised (Face of the Enemy), so it has to be more than a simple over-lay of "insert star-field here". I could invent something about how it's actually an alternate warp-field technology, that instead of making a bubble that contracts space in front and stretches it behind, it folds it on itself. But they'd be blind (like TOS Balance of Terror) if that were the case. Huh.

[Lord Revan]

we probably saw an early stage of the Romulan cloak with the Probes in ENT while they couldn't "disapear" they could mask themselves as another ship, so I suspect the development from there was how to go from "another ship" to "empty space".

[Prometheus Unbound]

I would have to conclude that the Treaty of Algernon covers Federation employment of cloaks in war or on starships. The Federation still uses them for science (the duckblind in Who Watches the Watchers.)

That was holographic, I thought? Because it doesn't just go invisible, a new rock face is there in its place.

[Prometheus Unbound]

we probably saw an early stage of the Romulan cloak with the Probes in ENT while they couldn't "disapear" they could mask themselves as another ship, so I suspect the development from there was how to go from "another ship" to "empty space".

We also saw a Romulan Warbird that cloaked in season 1 or 2 - they definitely had cloaks even by then.

[Khaat]

I would have to conclude that the Treaty of Algernon covers Federation employment of cloaks in war or on starships. The Federation still uses them for science (the duckblind in Who Watches the Watchers.)

That was holographic, I thought? Because it doesn't just go invisible, a new rock face is there in its place.

True, but the effect was the same: disguise obvious installation with "more of the normal stuff around it", in this case: more rock face. If the Federation was "prohibited from being sneaky and/or deceptive (with cloaking tech)", this would include circumstances like the duckblind.

On at least one occasion Starfleet created self-replicating mines with cloaking ability, with no mention of Romulan complaints. It is possible that the treaty ban only related to the use of cloaking devices on space-faring vessels. Alternatively, the cloaking devices in the mines may have been Klingon in origin. (DS9: "Call to Arms")

An exception to the treaty in 2371 allowed for the limited supervised use of at least one cloaking device on loan from the Romulans. Operation of the cloaking device was to be limited to the Gamma Quadrant. In return, the Romulans would receive all information the Federation obtained on the USS Defiant's voyages into the Gamma Quadrant, most importantly any information concerning the Dominion. As such, the Defiant was the only Federation ship to be permanently equipped with a cloaking device. (DS9: "The Search, Part I", "Visionary") However, Captain Benjamin Sisko and his crew violated this amendment on several occasions by using the cloaking device in the Alpha Quadrant. (DS9: "The Way of the Warrior", et al)

According to Sisko, a Romulan officer (T'Rul) was supposed to join the Defiant crew to operate the cloaking device and ensure its safekeeping. However, no Romulan liaison officers were seen aboard the Defiant after DS9: "The Search, Part II".
The cloaking device aboard the Federation holoship in Star Trek: Insurrection was apparently in violation of the treaty.

Edit: more stuff, things.

[Lord Revan]

we probably saw an early stage of the Romulan cloak with the Probes in ENT while they couldn't "disapear" they could mask themselves as another ship, so I suspect the development from there was how to go from "another ship" to "empty space".

We also saw a Romulan Warbird that cloaked in season 1 or 2 - they definitely had cloaks even by then.

that one is possibly an anomaly (probably cause by the Temporal Cold War) as it's simply way too powerful to be predesessor to the TOS cloak (it was invisible even to Daniels' tech from the future meant to detect cloaked objects)

in 2260s federation consider cloaking tech theoretically possible but don't know of an actual practical application, that doesn't fit the notion that earth had encountered a cloak capable ship a century before. However it does fit the notion that earth had encountered a ship that had something similar to a cloak but not quite as powerful.

[Prometheus Unbound]

So this isn't 2 romulan warbirds decloaking ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LreyR100sgE

[Lord Revan]

So this isn't 2 romulan warbirds decloaking ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LreyR100sgE

that looks like it's from the episode minefield, that I stated is anomalous when you compare it to TOS or TNG as not even future technology (from the 31st century IIRC) designed to peirce cloaks could pierce the cloaks of those BoPs. so either both the RSE and the crew of NX-01 were utter morons, RSE for installing much, much weaker cloaks in future ships and the crew of the NX-01 not reporting about this as cloaks were considered theoretical in 2260s by starfleet or this single instace was a temporal anomaly that got erased from the timeline when the Temporal Cold War ended after Stormfront and in canon romulans didn't have cloaks before "Balance of Terror" and those cloaks were for a long time less then perfect and a observant crew could follow a cloaked ship thru the cloak but it was harder to do so.

basically I'm not saying the episode didn't happen because it did, what I'm saying is that romulans having cloaks in 2150s didn't happen in prime timeline and the events of that episode were a temporal "glitch"

[Prometheus Unbound]

The tech wasn't future technology - it was cobbled together under Daniel's instructions, yes, from Enterprise tech. He didn't hand it to them, he said here's how you can detect a Subiban ship with the tech you have.

They mention in the episode it's configured for Suliban tech, not Romulan - they try and it doesn't work. which isn't surprising because they have no clue how Romulan tech works at all.


And we see Romulan ships, identified as Romulan by T'Pol (well corrected - Hoshi translates it as Rom ah lon). We see them cloak and decloak. It's called cloaking in the episode.


I do understand your argument but I think it's more likely it's just what we see - Romulan cloaking devices.

[Crazedwraith]

So this isn't 2 romulan warbirds decloaking ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LreyR100sgE

No it's two birds-of-prey decloaking ;P

I think ENT tried to handwave continuity by saying it wasn't a proper cloak but some lesser disguise. In a similar way that Ferengi and Borg don't count because they never said their name.

IT doesn't make much sense in regard to Spock and Kirk's response to the cloak in Balance Of Terror though.

[Prometheus Unbound]

IT doesn't make much sense in regard to Spock and Kirk's response to the cloak in Balance Of Terror though.

Honestly I'm happy to write off Balance of Terror's continuity. Those two sentences ("Simple impulse power" and not knowing what a cloak is) have hampered Trek since then and caused all sorts of problems with Enterprise.

There's too much evidence these days that Spock was just... wrong. He acts like Starfleet have never encountered the idea of a cloaking device on an actual ship. But we know the Klingons had it in Enterprise, the Romulans had it in Enterprise, the Suliban...

[SpottedKitty]

Honestly I'm happy to write off Balance of Terror's continuity. Those two sentences ("Simple impulse power" and not knowing what a cloak is) have hampered Trek since then and caused all sorts of problems with Enterprise.

Early first season weirdness, maybe? I don't know where Balance of Terror came in the actual production schedule, but it was always pretty clear in hindsight that not all the early-episode technobabble matched up properly with what ended up in later episodes.

[Lord Revan]

So this isn't 2 romulan warbirds decloaking ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LreyR100sgE

No it's two birds-of-prey decloaking ;P

I think ENT tried to handwave continuity by saying it wasn't a proper cloak but some lesser disguise. In a similar way that Ferengi and Borg don't count because they never said their name.

IT doesn't make much sense in regard to Spock and Kirk's response to the cloak in Balance Of Terror though.

if you want to be that anal about it's 2 T'varo-class light warbirds decloaking but while the strength doesn't match the later cloaks (it's too powerful) it's easy to write it off as a temporal cold war "glitch" and the "real" event involved lesser disguises.

[Crazedwraith]

if you want to be that anal about it's 2 T'varo-class light warbirds decloaking but while the strength doesn't match the later cloaks (it's too powerful) it's easy to write it off as a temporal cold war "glitch" and the "real" event involved lesser disguises.

Yes I was being 'anal' and not you know. Joking.

If I was going to be anal I'd tell you to fuck off for using STO designations like they at all mattered. And that that explanation is gibberish.

[Knife]

IT doesn't make much sense in regard to Spock and Kirk's response to the cloak in Balance Of Terror though.

Honestly I'm happy to write off Balance of Terror's continuity. Those two sentences ("Simple impulse power" and not knowing what a cloak is) have hampered Trek since then and caused all sorts of problems with Enterprise.

There's too much evidence these days that Spock was just... wrong. He acts like Starfleet have never encountered the idea of a cloaking device on an actual ship. But we know the Klingons had it in Enterprise, the Romulans had it in Enterprise, the Suliban...

I'd rather write off Enterprise than TOS.

[Simon_Jester]

I'd rather write off one thing about one episode of TOS than have to argue over continuity squabbles.

[Lord Revan]

the thing is that it's inconsistent with TNG (and later TOS) depictions as well due to not showing up in NX-01 sensors until the ship decloaked (when NX-01 was using special anti-cloak sensors given to them By the temporal agent known as "Daniels" and NX-01 was using said sensors to detect the mines so we can't say it wasn't working) and we know that during TNG it was possible though very hard to detect cloaked ships using regular sensors. While I could accept NX-01's normal sensors not detecting the cloaked ships the problem comes from the 31st century tech designed to peirce cloaks not detecting a cloaked 22nd century ship.

basically had they forgotten about the peice of future tech used to detect cloaks or had it reveal the ship as well I'd have no problems with the episode.

[Prometheus Unbound]

IT doesn't make much sense in regard to Spock and Kirk's response to the cloak in Balance Of Terror though.

Honestly I'm happy to write off Balance of Terror's continuity. Those two sentences ("Simple impulse power" and not knowing what a cloak is) have hampered Trek since then and caused all sorts of problems with Enterprise.

There's too much evidence these days that Spock was just... wrong. He acts like Starfleet have never encountered the idea of a cloaking device on an actual ship. But we know the Klingons had it in Enterprise, the Romulans had it in Enterprise, the Suliban...

I'd rather write off Enterprise than TOS.

Not all of TOS just those two particlar sentences / ideas. It conflicts with too much. And just because Spock hasn't heard of it doesn't mean it's not possible. In every other ST show on every other claim, people are happy to say dialogue doesn't match visuals or "Riker wouldn't necessarily know to do that" etc. Why are these two things seemingly not just canon but Law in ST?

It's a comment that's 50 years old. One sentence. That other than that particular episode, has no actual effect on anything.

[Knife]

Still rather keep the TOS bits and ditch the Ent stuff. It jumped the rails pretty early and it was the one that violated shit.

The cloak is one thing, but the 'simple impulse' is ok. In my head cannon I just interpret that as no M/AM power plant and just runs off a fusion engine for warp and what not. But yeah, that's just me.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Still rather keep the TOS bits and ditch the Ent stuff. It jumped the rails pretty early and it was the one that violated shit.

The cloak is one thing, but the 'simple impulse' is ok. In my head cannon I just interpret that as no M/AM power plant and just runs off a fusion engine for warp and what not. But yeah, that's just me.

That's the explanation (the non-canon) Star Fleet Battles came up with for Rom Warbirds and other "early years" designs.

[bilateralrope]

Bryan Fuller Reveals Discovery Details

Star Trek: Discovery creator and executive producer Bryan Fuller dropped more hints about the upcoming series on Wednesday during an interview session with journalists attending the Television Critics Association Summer Tour. Among the revelations:

• The show will be set 10 years before Star Trek: The Original Series.
• The main character will be a woman, but not a captain. "We've seen six characters from the captain's point of view," Fuller said. “In order to understand something that is so completely alien from her, she must first understand herself. That's part of our journey on this planet, to get along, and that's part of our journey in this first season.”
• The first season will consist of 13 episodes, with the show as a whole serialized and playing out like a novel, “with each episode being a chapter of that novel,” Fuller revealed. “And within that chapter there's a beginning, middle and end. We will have episodes that exist by themselves, but are a part of a much bigger story."
• Casting for Discovery is underway.
• Fans, Fuller noted, can expect a diverse cast and crew, as well as a full range of alien species the crew will encounter. "Star Trek started with a wonderful expression of diversity in its cast," Fuller said. "We're absolutely continuing that tradition."
• And, yes, he confirmed, there will feature a gay regular character.
• "The thing that makes Star Trek such a lasting, vital part of pop culture is that it's us, and where we're going," he said, and that it offers hope that "we're going to make it through."
• As for the non-human characters, Fuller, answering a writer’s question, revealed that there will be robots on Discovery. And, in terms of aliens, the show will feature "more aliens than you normally do in a Star Trek show. We're going to have new, exciting aliens and also re-imaginings of existing aliens."

Responding to specific questions, Fuller also divulged the following:

• “There's an incident, an event, in the history of Starfleet that has been talked about (in previous Star Trek shows), but never fully explored."
• Section 31 is not directly involved in that incident/event, “but that's not to say that might not have some marble through the meat of our season.”
• The Discovery ship design is still a work in progress, he said, but it will feature elements of illustrator Ralph McQuarrie’s Star Trek: Phase II designs, along with those of 1970s-era race cars, Lamborghinis and James Bond vehicles.
• "She's not a central part of the show,” Fuller said of Amanda Grayson, Spock’s human mother, “but we love that character."
• It’s conceivable that Discovery could feature bridge crew characters from TOS, but for the moment he’s “digging” what he’s go with the new characters and not thinking that far ahead.

Star Trek: Discovery is coming to CBS All Access in January 2017, following the premiere on the CBS Television Network, and will be distributed concurrently on Netflix in 188 countries and through Bell Media in Canada.
- See more at: http://www.startrek.com/article/bryan-f ... OymLY.dpuf

My thoughts:
- Prequels worry me. Why don't they want to touch the original timeline after DS9/VOY ?
- Saying that there is a single main character worries me. Though it could work.
- Tying episodes together more tightly than previous Trek series has worked for other TV Shows. It should work here.
- I want to know more about these robots on Discovery. Especially about why the Federation stopped using them. Any non-human crew of a species that we have never seen before will raise the question of what happened to their species after Discovery ?

“There's an incident, an event, in the history of Starfleet that has been talked about (in previous Star Trek shows), but never fully explored."

Any guesses as to which incident ?