Star Trek 09 review thread

[Androsphinx]

No. Spock dies. Spock saves the ship at the cost of his own life, TELLS Kirk that this was his no-win scenario, TELLS Kirk "It's logical - the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few or the one", is confirmed as dead by McCoy, has a funeral and ends the movie dead. That's the whole point of Wrath of Kahn - sometimes there are situations which you can't escape no matter how hard you try. The whole structure of the film, its narrative grammar and its character contrasts are set up to establish that point.

Search for Spock shat on all of this for the sake of a sequel, but that's beside the point. They brought Spock back because they couldn't have Trek without him. Wrath of Kahn is its own self-contained movie.

[TithonusSyndrome]

If that were entirely true, then the computer would have likely stated that the planets were H, O or P class planets. Where Kirk landed was, at the time, a frozen shithole.

It's possible the planet had very limited natural resources, making it undesirable for habitation even if it were technically a Class M.

I guarantee you, for a race making their very first forays into interstellar travel as the Vulcans must have once been, the relative undesirability of that planet means nothing in the face of the vast distance to the next suitable candidate, assuming it is within the bounds of their home system as is being purported here. At one point or another, it would have experienced some level of significant colonization and might have even been terraformed - I can tell you from a lifetime of experience that shitty, hostile living conditions won't stop people from settling an area in droves as long as there is work and resources to be had there.

[Androsphinx]

No. Spock dies. Spock saves the ship at the cost of his own life, TELLS Kirk that this was his no-win scenario, TELLS Kirk "It's logical - the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few or the one", is confirmed as dead by McCoy, has a funeral and ends the movie dead. That's the whole point of Wrath of Kahn - sometimes there are situations which you can't escape no matter how hard you try. The whole structure of the film, its narrative grammar and its character contrasts are set up to establish that point.

Just to add to the above, the Kobayashi Maru is an obvious metaphor for mortality and death - i.e. the things that ultimately can't be cheated or beaten (except in shitty sequels). That's why Kirk's final words about Spock after the funeral are the quotation from "Tale of Two Cities" which Spock gave to him as an initially-rebuffed birthday present.

[Patrick Degan]

I liked Kirk in the KM scene. Fuck all this talk about 'acting childish' or 'not taking it seriously'. If there is no way to win the test, it has no purpose. Progamming an encounter that you cannot win... I'm sorry, it's supposed to be a character test? What fucking rubbish.

Kirk displayed contempt for something contemptible.

What would have truly made that whole segment of the movie shine, though, would have been a more developed trial scene in which Kirk defends his "cheating" by pointing out to the board just why the test is bullshit and how, in the actual field, the commander who wins is the one who is willing to find a way to "cheat" —i.e. arrange the conditions of battle ahead of time to guarantee victory— instead of going in to face a moment of character definition. He would have out-logicked Spock and won not only his acquittal but also commendation for original thinking in one stroke.

[Patrick Degan]

Out of curiosity... Couldn't Kirk be the "Captain", but still be just an Lt.?

Usually, lieutenants who are posted to their own commands get something like a patrol boat or a chaser of some sort. Not anything like a ship of the line.

But it is a possibility?

Out of proper protocol, they would give a man assigned to the full command of a top-of-the-line warship rank appropriate to the position.

[Galvatron]

Am I the only one who interpreted Kirk's reprogramming of the simulator as a big prank?

And how is it a legitimate test of character if the trainee KNOWS it's unwinnable from the outset? Are they supposed to react as if there were any other possible outcome besides failure?

[Androsphinx]

That's why the shift towards the scenario being "to cause fear" didn't make so much sense to me. In tWoK the audience was afraid because we didn't know it was a simulation. But none of the characters were, and nor should they be here.

[Themightytom]

Am I the only one who interpreted Kirk's reprogramming of the simulator as a big prank?

And how is it a legitimate test of character if the trainee KNOWS it's unwinnable from the outset? Are they supposed to react as if there were any other possible outcome besides failure?

And the way he allegorically ate that apple! like a big "FQ! Instructors, i could ahve given this apple as a sign of respect, but I eat it instead!"

I think Kirk was just overly competitive in both series, he pretty much admittted it in TWOK when he said "I don't like to lose" it was fun to see this version bitchslap the Kobyashi maru, but it WOULD have been better if he could make a coherent argument for his actions. He probably DID go on a fantastic tirade in the original timeline as we see him frequently do in TOS, but this version has a bit of an achilles heel. You bring up the Death of Dad and he blanks.

Poetic justice though that Spock got to watch his Mom die, beccause its one thing to TALK about such an event its another to live it.

Kirks dad's situation was NOT a "no win" he gave his life tos ave his wife, and he was genuinely pleased at the end that he had a son. Even Spock, though his mother did not voluntarily give her life, could take solace that he preserved his people's heritage, and his dad.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I always found the Kobiashi Maru (or whatever...) to be a really bullshit "test", the most erect of dick moves.

If i give you a test with no possible way to answer the questions, then i say, "Oh it was a test of 'character', i wanted to see how well you reacted under fear of failing and being sent back a grade"...what the hell kind of teacher would i be?

Besides that doesn't test a person's character, that just shows you that they can't complete a test that was designed to be impossible to complete. A test of character would be something that actually begs the question of what they would do in a real situation. And in the real world, there is no retarded computer program that makes the enemy invincible.

"Oh my God the Klingons have unlocked godmode! All is lost!"

But of course, having met "leet haxor" nerds before, and see how they seem to presumptuously equate mad computer skillz with dick size, really Spock just comes off as the same kind of ridiculous antisocial dweeb i'm sure we all met in high school. Possibly more than one at a time. You know THAT guy, that one guy who was such a snotty little twit Ghandi would have to beat him up just on principle, the one you wanted to punch so hard shards of his glasses would be lodged in the bone of your knuckle. THAT guy.

He probably did the whole thing just to prove how much "smarter" he was than the "jocks", which is what all Spock-like nerds obsess about as it's the only way they can somehow not fail something. And as in real life, he seems to ignore the fact he STILL fails life, and his retarded "test" is completely useless in any realistic training program as it instils no information or skills on those who go through it.

[Skylon]

No. Spock dies. Spock saves the ship at the cost of his own life, TELLS Kirk that this was his no-win scenario, TELLS Kirk "It's logical - the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few or the one", is confirmed as dead by McCoy, has a funeral and ends the movie dead. That's the whole point of Wrath of Kahn - sometimes there are situations which you can't escape no matter how hard you try. The whole structure of the film, its narrative grammar and its character contrasts are set up to establish that point.

Search for Spock shat on all of this for the sake of a sequel, but that's beside the point. They brought Spock back because they couldn't have Trek without him. Wrath of Kahn is its own self-contained movie.

ST 3 did shit on it, but it at least also maintained some of the "no-win" aspects...Kirk got Spock back, but at the cost of his son and the Enterprise. Of course after ST 4, you could argue all Kirk really lost was his son in that trilogy.

[Stofsk]

I liked Kirk in the KM scene. Fuck all this talk about 'acting childish' or 'not taking it seriously'. If there is no way to win the test, it has no purpose. Progamming an encounter that you cannot win... I'm sorry, it's supposed to be a character test? What fucking rubbish.

Kirk displayed contempt for something contemptible.

What would have truly made that whole segment of the movie shine, though, would have been a more developed trial scene in which Kirk defends his "cheating" by pointing out to the board just why the test is bullshit and how, in the actual field, the commander who wins is the one who is willing to find a way to "cheat" —i.e. arrange the conditions of battle ahead of time to guarantee victory— instead of going in to face a moment of character definition. He would have out-logicked Spock and won not only his acquittal but also commendation for original thinking in one stroke.

That's a pretty good idea Patrick. Of course that scene was interrupted by the plot, so for all we know Kirk was formulating that as a rebuttal. Or at least, I'd like to think so.

The only problem with your idea, is that it would have humbled Spock earlier in the plot than his character development called for. Spock had to be outsmarted by Kirk later in the film, when both were more or less on equal footing. At that point in the plot, Kirk was a cadet and Spock a commissioned officer. Kirk hadn't yet proved himself as an able commander. For instance, Spock says that "You will learn fear" as though everyone who sits in the chair needs to face the possibility of defeat - which, my problems with the KM test aside, do serve a function (sometimes you need to know when to cut your losses and run to fight another day) - but Spock in a way couldn't face his fear. He needed a hot-headed human to point out to him that you can't just run to the fleet when people are counting on you, you need to face your fear and conquer it, by 'cheating' if necessary. So long as you defeat the enemy, it doesn't matter 'how' you accomplish that goal.

[Junghalli]

I guarantee you, for a race making their very first forays into interstellar travel as the Vulcans must have once been, the relative undesirability of that planet means nothing in the face of the vast distance to the next suitable candidate, assuming it is within the bounds of their home system as is being purported here. At one point or another, it would have experienced some level of significant colonization and might have even been terraformed - I can tell you from a lifetime of experience that shitty, hostile living conditions won't stop people from settling an area in droves as long as there is work and resources to be had there.

I suspect if our moon was as habitable as Delta Vega was portrayed in the movie the space program would be quite a bit further along. Compared to places like the moon or Mars an Arctic-like world is still a paradise.

[Stofsk]

Except for the ice monsters that make our polar bear look like a mewling kitten.

[tim31]

What would have truly made that whole segment of the movie shine, though, would have been a more developed trial scene in which Kirk defends his "cheating" by pointing out to the board just why the test is bullshit and how, in the actual field, the commander who wins is the one who is willing to find a way to "cheat" —i.e. arrange the conditions of battle ahead of time to guarantee victory— instead of going in to face a moment of character definition. He would have out-logicked Spock and won not only his acquittal but also commendation for original thinking in one stroke.

Aaron Allston did a very good scene in this spirit in the first XW: Wraith Squadron novel. The switcheroo(besides this being a Was example) is that the scene has Wedge showing up a cocksure recruit into realizing that there are times when you simply must cheat in order to endure. It may not be a courtroom drama, but it works.

[Samuel]

Except for the ice monsters that make our polar bear look like a mewling kitten.

That are afraid of fire. Honestly, they aren't a big problem. Especially since by existing they prove that there is enough plant life to support large lifeforms.

[Patrick Degan]

The only problem with your idea, is that it would have humbled Spock earlier in the plot than his character development called for. Spock had to be outsmarted by Kirk later in the film, when both were more or less on equal footing. At that point in the plot, Kirk was a cadet and Spock a commissioned officer. Kirk hadn't yet proved himself as an able commander. For instance, Spock says that "You will learn fear" as though everyone who sits in the chair needs to face the possibility of defeat - which, my problems with the KM test aside, do serve a function (sometimes you need to know when to cut your losses and run to fight another day) - but Spock in a way couldn't face his fear. He needed a hot-headed human to point out to him that you can't just run to the fleet when people are counting on you, you need to face your fear and conquer it, by 'cheating' if necessary. So long as you defeat the enemy, it doesn't matter 'how' you accomplish that goal.

Perhaps. But at that point, Spock is still dealing with the "facing fear" concept on an entirely theoretical basis. As an instructor, he might also tend to be blind to the point of Kirk's action and still stuck on the idea that he violated the conditions of the exercise and that Kirk's action was unethical and a violation of the Academy code —which he'd also have a vested interest in protecting. His entire attitude might be rigid on this point, ironically just as rigid as the instructors at the Vulcan Science Academy whom he'd have been inculcated by and he'd not see that flaw in himself either. Imagine the scene unfolding as Kirk delivers his rebuttal and Spock reiterates his objection:

"Nonetheless, Mr. Kirk, the entire object of the scenario is to teach a cadet that he will face fear and the possibility of death."

"That, Spock, is something you only really face in the real world and not in some damn simulator."

From there, the movie could have unfolded more or less as it did, with the same events shaking Spock to his core and setting him up for his breakdown on the bridge when Kirk goads him into it, and Spock really learns humility.

[Stofsk]

A valid point. I think the scene still works, but a line by Kirk saying "simulator=!real-life" would have made it better.

[Bounty]

Am I the only one who interpreted Kirk's reprogramming of the simulator as a big prank?

And how is it a legitimate test of character if the trainee KNOWS it's unwinnable from the outset? Are they supposed to react as if there were any other possible outcome besides failure?

Bones only says nobody has ever passed, not that he believes it cannot be passed; Kirk simply states that's the accepted knowledge among the cadets. It seems like Starfleet simply presents the scenario as extremely challenging but doesn't outright acknowledge it is unbeatable in order to keep enticing cadets to take it (after all, who wouldn't want to be the one who beats the 'unbeatable' scenario?).

And Hav: about the Delta vega thing... the more I think about it the less plausible it becomes that it's not next to Vulcan for more than one reason, so yeah, you were right. I still think it wasn't the best idea story-wise but that's how it's in the movie.

[Havok]

Oh I agree it is damned contrived, especially having Scotty there to demonstrate what a 1337 engineer he is, which Spock actually ends up doing, but yeah, it is what we see.

Also, interesting point on the KM... Do the cadets know if it is really unbeatable? Or is it just programed to be so hard that no one has done it yet. Obviously, we know, but who in universe knows.

[Bounty]

Also, interesting point on the KM... Do the cadets know if it is really unbeatable?

I think it's one of those open secrets, but the official position still seems to be that it is beatable - else there's no reason for Kirk to have tried it twice legitimately.

[Havok]

No. Spock dies. Spock saves the ship at the cost of his own life, TELLS Kirk that this was his no-win scenario, TELLS Kirk "It's logical - the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few or the one", is confirmed as dead by McCoy, has a funeral and ends the movie dead. That's the whole point of Wrath of Kahn - sometimes there are situations which you can't escape no matter how hard you try. The whole structure of the film, its narrative grammar and its character contrasts are set up to establish that point.

Yeah, except Spock had no intention of staying dead. You seem to forget, ironically, the scene where Spock transfers his essence into McCoy with the simple line "Remember". And if Spock had about 5 more minutes to explain the situation... well there goes your no win scenario, as it is a total victory. It would have been just like Spock takes a little vacation until they get his body to Vulcan.

Search for Spock shat on all of this for the sake of a sequel, but that's beside the point. They brought Spock back because they couldn't have Trek without him. Wrath of Kahn is its own self-contained movie.

Again, except that TWOK sets up the exit strategy for getting out of Spock's death. Don't act like TWOK was some pinnacle of perfection that TSFS tried to destroy. Spock was always going to come back, no matter what the story for ST III was going to be. TSFS, just happened to be sorta lame. Except for Doc Brown.

[Havok]

No. Spock dies. Spock saves the ship at the cost of his own life, TELLS Kirk that this was his no-win scenario, TELLS Kirk "It's logical - the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few or the one", is confirmed as dead by McCoy, has a funeral and ends the movie dead. That's the whole point of Wrath of Kahn - sometimes there are situations which you can't escape no matter how hard you try. The whole structure of the film, its narrative grammar and its character contrasts are set up to establish that point.

Search for Spock shat on all of this for the sake of a sequel, but that's beside the point. They brought Spock back because they couldn't have Trek without him. Wrath of Kahn is its own self-contained movie.

ST 3 did shit on it, but it at least also maintained some of the "no-win" aspects...Kirk got Spock back, but at the cost of his son and the Enterprise. Of course after ST 4, you could argue all Kirk really lost was his son in that trilogy.

It's actually a testament to the writers of ST III, that they saddled Kirk with real loss in that movie. The great and powerful TWOK, wasn't able to accomplish that.

[Havok]

Also, interesting point on the KM... Do the cadets know if it is really unbeatable?

I think it's one of those open secrets, but the official position still seems to be that it is beatable - else there's no reason for Kirk to have tried it twice legitimately.

Kirk probably did it twice, tried it two different ways, both of which he thought would work, and probably should have, and then was like "Wait one fucking minute!" and started snooping around about the simulation and figured out what was up.

[Oskuro]

Do the cadets know if it is really unbeatable? Or is it just programed to be so hard that no one has done it yet. Obviously, we know, but who in universe knows.

Considering that Kirk made the "revelation" of the scenario being a trap, forcing Spock to confirm it and explain why, I'd say it was not known by the cadets that it couldn't be beaten.

[Crazedwraith]

Yeah, except Spock had no intention of staying dead. You seem to forget, ironically, the scene where Spock transfers his essence into McCoy with the simple line "Remember". And if Spock had about 5 more minutes to explain the situation... well there goes your no win scenario, as it is a total victory. It would have been just like Spock takes a little vacation until they get his body to Vulcan.

I though the whole katra thing was supposed to be, because Vulcan tradition has them returned a cerominal place on Vulcan. He wasn't planning on being resurrected because he didn't know the Genesis Planet would revive/rejuvenate/clone/whatever the hell it did to his corpse.