Star Trek 09 review thread

[Havok]

I was thinking... The Cadets must know that you can't beat the simulation, otherwise more of them would be trying to go back to do it again since the instructors allow it. McCoy seems to imply that almost no one does it a second time, and never until Kirk, a third.

[Skylon]

There was a Trek novel a few years back covering how some of the TOS characters dealt with the KM scenario.

Sulu elected to not attempt a rescue mission. I don't recall how he got grilled by his instructor for that...if at all.

[Ted C]

According to the movie, the idea of the KM is to induce fear in the Cadet.

Which I think is the STUPIDEST reason combat simulation test I can think of. It's a test/simulation, you can't be killed. What they hell are you getting afraid of?

It would be a better test if it was to see how far the Captain was willing to go, and what they were willing to do, to achieve a goal.

My impression was that it was a test to see if a cadet was able to keep his head and continue to do his duty to the best of his ability, even when faced with a hopeless situation.

Of course, the cadet knows it's a simulation, so he or she will be willing to take risks and otherwise behave in a manner that he or she would not in a real life-threatening situation, so I don't see how this "test of character" can possibly reveal anything about how the cadet will really act under duress.

[General Zod]

My impression was that it was a test to see if a cadet was able to keep his head and continue to do his duty to the best of his ability, even when faced with a hopeless situation.

Of course, the cadet knows it's a simulation, so he or she will be willing to take risks and otherwise behave in a manner that he or she would not in a real life-threatening situation, so I don't see how this "test of character" can possibly reveal anything about how the cadet will really act under duress.

The only possible way I could see it working as a real test is if the cadet were given a bait-and-switch. They'd know that at some point they would be given such a test, but the exact details were tailored according to the group to perform it, and when they were called up for an assignment they'd instead be transported/taken to the simulation, unaware that it's not real. Not that this kind of test would be really practical, but I don't see any other way to handle it if you insisted on including something like the KM in the series.

[Havok]

The problem with that, is that we have Kirk specifically taking it three times.

[General Zod]

The problem with that, is that we have Kirk specifically taking it three times.

Which post are you addressing?

[Ted C]

The only possible way I could see it working as a real test is if the cadet were given a bait-and-switch. They'd know that at some point they would be given such a test, but the exact details were tailored according to the group to perform it, and when they were called up for an assignment they'd instead be transported/taken to the simulation, unaware that it's not real. Not that this kind of test would be really practical, but I don't see any other way to handle it if you insisted on including something like the KM in the series.

We saw something rather like this happen in a TNG episode, though. In "Coming of Age", Wesley is subjected to a test of character when he's forced to decide whether to abandon a man who isn't helping to save himself during a crisis. Only after Wesley makes his decision, saving an unconscious man and leaving the conscious-but-panicked man to his fate, does he find out that the crisis was actually a simulation.

[General Zod]

We saw something rather like this happen in a TNG episode, though. In "Coming of Age", Wesley is subjected to a test of character when he's forced to decide whether to abandon a man who isn't helping to save himself during a crisis. Only after Wesley makes his decision, saving an unconscious man and leaving the conscious-but-panicked man to his fate, does he find out that the crisis was actually a simulation.

That's basically what I had in mind, except more group oriented. The scenario they put Wesley through doesn't seem practical for large masses of cadets.

[Havok]

The problem with that, is that we have Kirk specifically taking it three times.

Which post are you addressing?

Yours. I like your idea for administering the test, but that would probably preclude you requesting to take it again.

[General Zod]

The problem with that, is that we have Kirk specifically taking it three times.

Which post are you addressing?

Yours. I like your idea for administering the test, but that would probably preclude you requesting to take it again.

Why would they have to take it again? If the point is to measure cadet responses to stressful situations they have no anticipation of I can't see the benefit in allowing a retake unless it actually affects whether you pass the Academy or not.

[Zablorg]

I think the reason the test is so silly might be a misjudgement on Spock's part. Being Vulcan, he might have assumed that students would act as if the simulation were real life, simply because that's the most "logical" way to treat a simulation.

Of course, even if that were so, it still begs the question of why his presumably human superiors let the test become official.

[Stark]

If it was simply a particular random scenario that had random names attached in the cadet's precious bridge-simulator time, it'd work. Imagine you get 40 hours of bridge time per semester, and your performance is a big part of your assessment or future prospects (say, bridge position vs bowels of ship position). Imagine the KM scenario is a code-name instructors use and the specific circumstances and names change each time for each bridge cadet crew. I can see this being a high-pressure situation where the cadets are all trying to get the best performance they can and simply see each simulation as a chance to show off, even in a university (ie non-military) sense. In the military I imagine it'd be even MORE cutthroat, which perhaps explains why cadets in the captain's chair would be expected to try to push the envelope even in very dangerous situations (since the idea the only bridge simulation they get is KM is retarded).

Also, it explains why Sulu is smarter than everyone else. 'Too bad, so sad.' LOL!

[dworkin]

Why would they have to take it again? If the point is to measure cadet responses to stressful situations they have no anticipation of I can't see the benefit in allowing a retake unless it actually affects whether you pass the Academy or not.

Because maybe the official line is "It's a hard test." not, "The simulation is unbeatable, we want to see how you react when it all goes to shit.". And I agree with Stark, it's one of a number of sims cadets must run and they sneak it in at random.

As for what the test does, I figure it's programmed to make things go from bad to worse no matter what you do. We've only ever seen what happens when Kirk attempts the test. Other things probably go wrong if you try diplomacy, or back off. Quite likely, the simulated Klingon commander is a 'charge in, damn the torpedoes' lunatic who personally blames you for the entire incident and comes charging across the Neutral zone and attacks you. Or if you somehow defeat the triplet of enemy ships, they respawn, or the KM blows up as you get close to transport, or the KM crew has space herpes / are actually klingon sabatouers. You're ship's engines malfunction and in the end the nearby star goes nova just as the warp engines go offline. In a no-win scenario you just won't have any win condition programmed in at all.

Which is what Kirk put in. 'God-mode' just would not be enough.

[Stark]

It makes even more sense when you consider much of the command simulation focus is probably on regualtions, laws, following procedure etc (I've heard much military training is like this). Thus, cadets who feel secure in their rote knowledge of Starfleet regulations - and know how to get the instructors nodding at their conduct - will get a nasty surprise from the simulation, which may be the intent.

[General Zod]

Because maybe the official line is "It's a hard test." not, "The simulation is unbeatable, we want to see how you react when it all goes to shit.". And I agree with Stark, it's one of a number of sims cadets must run and they sneak it in at random.

Everybody already seemed to know that it was unbeatable. As much as the gossip would spread advertising it as "just a hard test" would be absurd.

[Havok]

Why would they have to take it again? If the point is to measure cadet responses to stressful situations they have no anticipation of I can't see the benefit in allowing a retake unless it actually affects whether you pass the Academy or not.

In your scenario, they wouldn't. What I was trying to say is that in the movie, Kirk has taken three presumably scheduled KM tests, so obviously there is no chance of it being random as you suggest. Of course I don't think you are trying to fit your theory into the movie or universe, I'm just commenting on the idea and contrasting it with what we see.

[Ilya Muromets]

Why would they have to take it again? If the point is to measure cadet responses to stressful situations they have no anticipation of I can't see the benefit in allowing a retake unless it actually affects whether you pass the Academy or not.

In your scenario, they wouldn't. What I was trying to say is that in the movie, Kirk has taken three presumably scheduled KM tests, so obviously there is no chance of it being random as you suggest. Of course I don't think you are trying to fit your theory into the movie or universe, I'm just commenting on the idea and contrasting it with what we see.

I got the impression that the retakes were specifically requested by students wishing to do so. However, I don't recall anything in the movie that implies the first time around was scheduled. Maybe the first time around actually was randomly given and unexpected? Perhaps the guys in the Academy allow those who request retakes to do so if only to hammer home the point that it is hopeless, no matter what you try? I know it's a stretch, but not implausible.

[General Zod]

Why would they have to take it again? If the point is to measure cadet responses to stressful situations they have no anticipation of I can't see the benefit in allowing a retake unless it actually affects whether you pass the Academy or not.

In your scenario, they wouldn't. What I was trying to say is that in the movie, Kirk has taken three presumably scheduled KM tests, so obviously there is no chance of it being random as you suggest. Of course I don't think you are trying to fit your theory into the movie or universe, I'm just commenting on the idea and contrasting it with what we see.

Nitpick: He'd taken 2, iirc. The one where he cheated was his third try.

[Stark]

If it's so public, it may be a meta-test; you're not supposed to win and everyone knows that, but they're interested in how cadets respond to that - what the cadets think is the 'right' answer. In other words, the instructors are learning what the cadets have decided the instructors want to see.

What they learn about Kirk is presumably that he deals with failure extremely poorly or that he doesn't care about the training.

[General Zod]

If it's so public, it may be a meta-test; you're not supposed to win and everyone knows that, but they're interested in how cadets respond to that - what the cadets think is the 'right' answer. In other words, the instructors are learning what the cadets have decided the instructors want to see.

So exactly what they told us in the movie?

[Stark]

No; you said 'measure response to stressful situations', but cadets would be talking about this test throughout the years of their training. The only 'stress' in the simulation is 'am I making the instructors happy; is this how a Starfleet captain acts', not 'omg bbq the klingbons will kill me'. I'm suggesting it's an indirect way of determining what cadets have taken away from their training (which is useful when designing training even if it's irrelevant to the cadet's career).

The data would be pretty useful. 'When Professor Depression was lecturing, suicidal responses to the KM tool increased 400%; this class needs careful handling in the field'.

[Havok]

Nitpick: He'd taken 2, iirc. The one where he cheated was his third try.

Well as of the end of the movie, he had taken it three times. So there on your nitpick.

[Havok]

What they learn about Kirk is presumably that he deals with failure extremely poorly or that he doesn't care about the training.

Maybe, or they learn that he doesn't give up until he wins and can think "outside the box". (which is one conclusion they may have come to if the proceedings had a chance to finish, and apparently the conclusion they came to in the TOS timeline) This was his third try at the test. If it was his first and he cheated, then what you said would probably be where the faculty stood on his actions.

[Stark]

Explain how 'I will repeat this test over and over, eventually cheating, because I must always win' tells us positive things about him? It was characterful in the old series because hey, Kirk really is a headstrong moron, and it's arguably characterful here because hey, Kirk is a headstrong moron, but it's not 'good'.

After his first test, the instructors would already know where his obsession with success and 'innovative' thinking got him; dead.

It's worth remembering that to measure anything psychological you can't ask direct questions, which is why I speculate the KM scenario isn't really about winning or losing at all (which is why it's so quaint and American that Kirk is success obsessed). His eventual result is as valid as me sitting an IQ test three times and cheating on the last one - WHAT A GENIUS I TURNED OUT TO BE!

[Nephtys]

I saw it today, and was quite pleased by it. I found it a good and enjoyable movie. That's all it takes to get an approval in my book, really. Still, my friends and I were of course, making the usual comments for amusing bits.

Let's see.

1. All of the most important people in the universe are found in crapholes. Like Iowa. Or Vulcan's rocky, dry equivalent of Iowa.

2. The folding Katana was hilarious. Especially when you see the Romulan pull out a collapsable hatchet. This is when I thought that Nero's little kill-blade he used on the Kelvin's Captain was his 'Sceptre of Evil'. Nope. Just an ordinary Hatchet. FROM SPACE.

3. The Redshirt in the skydiving scene was trying to make us think he was Scotty, so he'd live. But nope. WELSHIEEEE! Also, thank heavens it wasn't a grav-chute or something. Even though they clearly can make hover-vehicles, like that police motorcycle.

4. Maybe that giant bug didn't want to eat the juicy fat polar bear thing, because Kirk is a warmer meal? Also, bugs are incompetent even on their home planet.

5. Nero's ship needed railings. And floors. And all of it's light was provided by a backlit, slowly rotating fan. Thanks a lot for that, Blade Runner!

6. It's nice to know that basements are no longer out of style, and every ship has one. Also, the Enterprise's basement is equipped with a giant grinder designed to dice remarkably clean water.

7. Kirk brought an apple to his test, and nobody noticed. I guess the Captain's Chair has a small compartment for hilarious props.

8. Yet again, all of life's problems could be better solved if they transported a bomb instead of command staff officers.

9. Virtually all of Kirk's classmates, including Greenie, are probably dead. Downer. Oh well! It's time for a medal ceremony!

10. All of this trouble would have been averted if only Starfleet had a single surface to air missile located somewhere on either Earth or Vulcan to destroy the long tube that was for some reason covered in spikes. Or a shuttlecraft with a skeet-shooting phaser. Something along those lines.