Star Trek, five months later

PST: discuss Star Trek without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

Rate the movie!

10 - I have no sense of perspective and think mankind will never better this masterpiece
2
1%
9
8
5%
8 - very good
44
25%
7
51
29%
6 - decent but flawed
46
26%
5
13
7%
4 - poor
4
2%
3
2
1%
2 - shit
3
2%
1
1
1%
 
Total votes: 174

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The Romulan Republic
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Stark wrote:Ironically, of course, Kirk's 'plan' for saving the Earth was complete horseshit suicide. The world was saved due to super-contrived plot, not any attribute of Kirk's. Old Spock is the hero, not idiot boy.
Prior to meeting Old Spock, and going off my best recollections of the film, the most detailed plan Kirk had devised basically boiled down to "chase Nero." Which given the circumstances, was the least lousy of two lousy choices (the other being "write off Earth"). What exact battle plan he would have employed without transwarp beaming, and weather it would have been at all effective, is impossible to ascertain.

The basic plan that was ultimately employed upon Kirk assuming command made sense under the circumstances. Yes, it depended on transwarp beaming to work, which they would not have had without Old Spock. Without that, Kirk's options would have been more limited. But that goes for any captain. The fact remains that he took the best of an assortment of bad options, and used the resources at his disposal fairly effectively.

Granted, the plan had its flaws. While the basic idea of using a stealthy approach and then beaming a team aboard was a good idea, their is little to no excuse for the boarding party consisting only of the two most senior officers. It probably should have been a team of several engineers and security officers, plus Spock due to his mind-melding abilities. This was clearly done for dramatic effect, and it makes Kirk look like a dumbass on that point at least.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Stark »

That's a pretty longwinded way of saying 'you're right', y'know. His plan was CHASE NERO AND DIE USELESSLY. Everything else hinged on dumb luck. He's a hero because he was in the right place at the right time; that's all.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by erik_t »

Worst-case, he could have decided the only option was to ram the shit out of Nero's ship. That would not in any way be a DIE USELESSLY sort of plan. I disagree with your assessment that chasing Nero without a solid plan from there was the wrong choice.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Stark »

Except post-Kelvin, Nero had wised up and eliminated an entire fleet in a minute or so, so that probably wouldn't work? Oops.

All Kirk knew was 'killed half a dozen ships in the space of a brief conversation'. His 'plan' was just juvenile impotence, and he's just lucky his stupidity led him down the yellow brick road of plot contrivance. Without Old Spock, Earth was doomed.

And it isn't about it being the 'wrong choice'. Lots of people make 'not wrong choices' all the time and suck and die; that's not relevant to the idea that Kirk personally saved Earth and thus his ridiculous promotion is understandable. All he did was be a stupid cunt; that's his contribution. He needed to be a stupid cunt to meet Old Spock. YAY HERO!!!!
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by erik_t »

There's no reason to assume that an enemy ship can operate indefinitely, without any sort of limitations on ammunition etc. It's an infinitely superior plan to crying in a corner with his dick in his hand, which seems to be your suggestion.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Stark wrote:That's a pretty longwinded way of saying 'you're right', y'know.
That was not a concession.

Kirk's plan was the least crappy of two crappy options. But feel free to present your arguments in favor of sacrificing Earth. :lol:

Never mind that the battle plan that was actually ultimately used was mostly decent.
His plan was CHASE NERO AND DIE USELESSLY. Everything else hinged on dumb luck. He's a hero because he was in the right place at the right time; that's all.
You could make the exact same criticism of the original Kirk in The Wrath of Kahn. He was only able to win because their was a nebula in the area. In other words, he got lucky. :D
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Samuel »

Except if the entire fleet had followed Kirk's logic it would have been defeated piecemeal. They wanted to concentrate the fleet so they could take the Narada down and if every single human captain had decided to beeline to Earth Nero could have simply killed them one by one.
Kirk's plan was the least crappy of two crappy options. But feel free to present your arguments in favor of sacrificing Earth.
Because the chance of him saving Earth before Old Spock was ZERO. The chance with the fleet was a non-zero number. This isn't hard.
Never mind that the battle plan that was actually ultimately used was mostly decent.
The battle plan they used depended entirely on Old Spock's knowledge.
You could make the exact same criticism of the original Kirk in The Wrath of Kahn. He was only able to win because their was a nebula in the area. In other words, he got lucky.
No, the only reason he won was because Khan didn't kill Kirk in the initial volley. As for nebula (even gas giant looking ones), they are more common than time traveling mentors.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Darth Wong »

Kirk was a hero because of Spock twice. New Spock dumped him on the ice planet where he found Old Spock, who helped save the day. If Kirk had actually taken command of the Enterprise from the beginning, the Enterprise would have been destroyed. The whole thing only worked because New Spock marooned him. If one is going to call Kirk a hero for his idiot plan, then New Spock must also be a hero for marooning him, since that contributed as much or more to their eventual victory.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Samuel, I'd be glad to answer your post in detail, but given the following from the OP
Bounty wrote:Finally, I would really appreciate it if this didn't drift off-topic into minutiae or tech discussions. PST is on life support anyway, start a new thread if you must.
I thought it would be best to take it to a separate thread if its going to grow into a lengthy debate. Link is below:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 8&t=137693
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Gramzamber »

I still don't get the marooning thing in the first place, other than plot contrivance.
It seems to me that deliberately dumping a ship's officer onto a dangerous planet in a system already destabilised by a freaking black hole consuming a planet instead of just dumping him into the brig is a deeply irresponsible and criminal act.

I know Spock was emotionally compromised given his whole world just died but why did the rest of the crew let him carry out such an illegal order? Then again security on this Enterprise seemed like a band of thugs who later on seemed to have no qualms about letting Spock brutally assault Kirk on the bridge.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Bounty »

I still don't get the marooning thing in the first place, other than plot contrivance.
Spock is in shock from the loss of Vulcan but won't admit it to himself, so he acts out against Kirk. It's a pretty major plot point; Kirk even rants against the marooning being illegal as he's walking on Delta Vega.

Not that he should have been walking in the first place; the pod's flight computer tells him to stay put until help arrives. He wasn't just dumped in the wilderness by design, he was aimed at the outpost.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Gramzamber »

Bounty wrote:
I still don't get the marooning thing in the first place, other than plot contrivance.
Spock is in shock from the loss of Vulcan but won't admit it to himself, so he acts out against Kirk. It's a pretty major plot point; Kirk even rants against the marooning being illegal as he's walking on Delta Vega.
Yes but again it's not like Spock could've done it without the willing assistance of ship security at least, hence they followed through on an illegal order made by someone unfit to command at that time.
Not that he should have been walking in the first place; the pod's flight computer tells him to stay put until help arrives. He wasn't just dumped in the wilderness by design, he was aimed at the outpost.
He was dumped onto a planet with giant freaking monsters. If he had stayed put who's to say that giant red thing wouldn't have come along, cracked the pod open like an egg and feasted on the fresh Kirk meat inside?
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Bounty »

Yes but again it's not like Spock could've done it without the willing assistance of ship security at least, hence they followed through on an illegal order made by someone unfit to command at that time.
They did not know he was unfit at the time. Technically Spock was correctly following Pike's standing orders.

As for Spock kicking Kirk off the ship and beating him up, something tells me Cupcake wouldn't mind that very much :P
He was dumped onto a planet with giant freaking monsters.
I never said it was actually a good or even a sane idea to land him there.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Stark »

erik_t wrote:There's no reason to assume that an enemy ship can operate indefinitely, without any sort of limitations on ammunition etc. It's an infinitely superior plan to crying in a corner with his dick in his hand, which seems to be your suggestion.
Fuckoff, dickless. Anything Enterprise can do, the fleet can do better; a futile attempt to save Earth based on some fat nerd saying OH I BET THEY'RE OUT OF BULLETS NOW is -not- a good plan. Remember? That's the point. His plan was shit and he was doomed, Earth was doomed, etc. Kirk's plan - ps his plan was OMG MUST HURT THE BAD MAN I AM FURIOUS AND WAVING MY FIST KILL NERO KILL HIM HE KILLED MY DAD AAAAAAAAAAGH - has only one predictable result; the useless destruction of Enterprise.

To get a reward for 'good plan', his plan has to be good. A reward for heroism (ps heroism is not having a good plan, it's personal bravery) would be more appropriate, but due to Kirk's massive psychological issues it's likely he was just acting out of fear.

I actually love that nerds wank so hard to Kirk 'saving the world', because it tells me that to a nerd, anything you're peripherally involved in or happens near you means YOU get rewarded. They guy was involved in saving the world; so was Ensign Shitpants who drove a teleporter console.

Romulan Republic; grow the fuck up. If you think 'dying uselessly in a futile attempt to save Earth out of stupidity' is better than 'join up with a fleet to maximise the likelihood of success in battle', you're an idiot. It's arguable that the nST Federation would have been totally fucked after the loss of Earth... but dying faster doesn't fix that. Your attempt to use WoK (where Kirk's stupidity nearly doomed his ship) is hilarious.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Gramzamber »

Bounty wrote:
Yes but again it's not like Spock could've done it without the willing assistance of ship security at least, hence they followed through on an illegal order made by someone unfit to command at that time.
They did not know he was unfit at the time. Technically Spock was correctly following Pike's standing orders.
I would think knowing his planet went kaplooey would send up some red flags, Vulcan or not.
And I don't see what marooning him on a planet gained more than simply putting Kirk in the brig.
As for Spock kicking Kirk off the ship and beating him up, something tells me Cupcake wouldn't mind that very much :P
That's what I mean, "Cupcake"'s a thug who lets personal issues from one incident, years ago cloud his judgement and affect his duty.
How would it have looked if he had let Spock actually murder Kirk? Oops, there goes Spock's career. And probably his too for allowing the skipper to engage in such an action.

Personally I hope he earns a proper redshirt death in the next movie.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Simon_Jester »

Gramzamber wrote:Yes but again it's not like Spock could've done it without the willing assistance of ship security at least, hence they followed through on an illegal order made by someone unfit to command at that time.
True in hindsight, but Spock hadn't done anything to disqualify him from command yet except that illegal order.

It's worth remembering that Kirk wasn't even supposed to be on the ship in the first place, I think; that may have influenced the attitude of the security and made them more likely to do something drastic and probably illegal to get rid of him. The fact that he was an ass probably didn't help matters, either.
Gramzamber wrote:That's what I mean, "Cupcake"'s a thug who lets personal issues from one incident, years ago cloud his judgement and affect his duty.
True. Of course, since Kirk doesn't seem to be any less of a dick three years later than he was that day in the bar, I could easily imagine Kirk having spent the whole time in Starfleet Academy giving assorted trainee redshirts crap, except when he was busy cheating on exams and screwing green skinned space babes.

It wouldn't make "Cupcake's" behavior any more professional, but it would make it easier to understand.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by erik_t »

Stark wrote:
erik_t wrote:There's no reason to assume that an enemy ship can operate indefinitely, without any sort of limitations on ammunition etc. It's an infinitely superior plan to crying in a corner with his dick in his hand, which seems to be your suggestion.
Fuckoff, dickless. Anything Enterprise can do, the fleet can do better; a futile attempt to save Earth based on some fat nerd saying OH I BET THEY'RE OUT OF BULLETS NOW is -not- a good plan. Remember? That's the point. His plan was shit and he was doomed, Earth was doomed, etc. Kirk's plan - ps his plan was OMG MUST HURT THE BAD MAN I AM FURIOUS AND WAVING MY FIST KILL NERO KILL HIM HE KILLED MY DAD AAAAAAAAAAGH - has only one predictable result; the useless destruction of Enterprise.
You will note that I never said it's good. I mean, you'd note that if you bothered to read the statements of others instead of immediately launching yourself into tirades that make the rest of us embarrassed on your behalf.

Once again: the RAR CHASE NERO plan had an infinitely better probability of saving Earth than did joining the fleet that was not going to come, unless Starfleet has some kind of super-duper-powerful magical multi-light-year-ranged weapon in the new universe. Any non-zero chance of victory, however miniscule, would be well worth the sacrifice of a few thousands of people with the opportunity to save ten billion. If this doesn't fall within the criteria of when a fleet crewman is expected to go out without expecting to come back... what does?
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Gramzamber »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Gramzamber wrote:Yes but again it's not like Spock could've done it without the willing assistance of ship security at least, hence they followed through on an illegal order made by someone unfit to command at that time.
True in hindsight, but Spock hadn't done anything to disqualify him from command yet except that illegal order.

It's worth remembering that Kirk wasn't even supposed to be on the ship in the first place, I think; that may have influenced the attitude of the security and made them more likely to do something drastic and probably illegal to get rid of him. The fact that he was an ass probably didn't help matters, either.
I don't dispute that Kirk was a dick, but that's what the brig is for.
Putting him off the ship especially during a crisis was overkill, and though he was a stowaway, Pike had already allowed his presence and commisioned him as an officer.
True. Of course, since Kirk doesn't seem to be any less of a dick three years later than he was that day in the bar, I could easily imagine Kirk having spent the whole time in Starfleet Academy giving assorted trainee redshirts crap, except when he was busy cheating on exams and screwing green skinned space babes.

It wouldn't make "Cupcake's" behavior any more professional, but it would make it easier to understand.
Perhaps, but any level headed person would at least try to get Spock off Kirk reasoning that the asshole in the black shirt isn't worth ruining Spock's career and his own.
Actually it would've been ironic to see "Cupcake" try to save Kirk from Spock's fury given how much he'd like to wring his neck himself. But that's his job.
erik_t wrote:Once again: the RAR CHASE NERO plan had an infinitely better probability of saving Earth than did joining the fleet that was not going to come, unless Starfleet has some kind of super-duper-powerful magical multi-light-year-ranged weapon in the new universe. Any non-zero chance of victory, however miniscule, would be well worth the sacrifice of a few thousands of people with the opportunity to save ten billion. If this doesn't fall within the criteria of when a fleet crewman is expected to go out without expecting to come back... what does?
How is it better? While the importance of Earth is obvious, charging headlong into the doom ship with no plan other than "stop Nero.... somehow!" achieves nothing for nobody.
With the fleet there's perhaps a chance that their combined firepower can at least bruise Nero long enough for him to go away.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by erik_t »

Gramzamber wrote:
erik_t wrote:Once again: the RAR CHASE NERO plan had an infinitely better probability of saving Earth than did joining the fleet that was not going to come, unless Starfleet has some kind of super-duper-powerful magical multi-light-year-ranged weapon in the new universe. Any non-zero chance of victory, however miniscule, would be well worth the sacrifice of a few thousands of people with the opportunity to save ten billion. If this doesn't fall within the criteria of when a fleet crewman is expected to go out without expecting to come back... what does?
How is it better? While the importance of Earth is obvious, charging headlong into the doom ship with no plan other than "stop Nero.... somehow!" achieves nothing for nobody.
With the fleet there's perhaps a chance that their combined firepower can at least bruise Nero long enough for him to go away.
You may note that the fleet never showed up. Obviously there's no chance that they could bruise Nero in the slightest, as they were not there.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Darth Wong »

The larger problem with that whole scenario is asking precisely why the rest of the fleet would have such a cavalier attitude at this point. It's as if the entire plot was constructed arbitrarily with no regard for logic, just so they could concoct flimsy contrived excuses to have Kirk meet Spock and then end up taking over the ship ;)
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Gramzamber »

erik_t wrote:You may note that the fleet never showed up. Obviously there's no chance that they could bruise Nero in the slightest, as they were not there.
I thought that Nero was jamming communications to the fleet, hence why Spock was trying to fly directly to them.
I may be remembering wrong though.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Bounty »

The larger problem with that whole scenario is asking precisely why the rest of the fleet would have such a cavalier attitude at this point.
That's what bothered me too. There's a line that says radio isn't working so they can't contact the fleet... but it's buried in a long droning monologue by Spock that Kirk is shouting over. And it doesn't explain why nobody in the fleet - and surely they would know something was up at Vulcan - bothered to send a ship to check in.

There is an unidentified crisis, everything flyable gets sent to Vulcan, Earth is left with its pants down, the fleet sent to Vulcan disappears into thin air, and nobody at Starfleet is at this point shitting his pants and demanding a line of ships around the planet? Really?

It wouldn't even have been all that difficult to throw in a line to explain the absence ("the fleet will never make it on time"); it's as if the intent was to have a dilemma à la Doomsday Machine (we either run and warn the others, or fight and leave them unprepared), but that plot point, if it ever existed, obviously didn't get properly written in.
I thought that Nero was jamming communications to the fleet, hence why Spock was trying to fly directly to them.
He jams communications, he isn't jamming engines. With nuTrek speeds there's no reason they couldn't have sent something, anything, as a messenger.

And you'd think someone would have contacted the fleet as soon as the ships sent to Vulcan, you know, stopped existing.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Gramzamber »

Bounty wrote:He jams communications, he isn't jamming engines. With nuTrek speeds there's no reason they couldn't have sent something, anything, as a messenger.

And you'd think someone would have contacted the fleet as soon as the ships sent to Vulcan, you know, stopped existing.
Then again there's no reason why somebody on Vulcan with the interstellar equivalent of a pickup truck on the other side of the planet from Nero couldn't have hauled ass and told everyone there's a giant doom ship doing bad things.

You know I'm beginning to think Red Matter doesn't work at all. Vulcan coincidentally imploded due to the sheer anti-logic present in the movie.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by erik_t »

Darth Wong wrote:The larger problem with that whole scenario is asking precisely why the rest of the fleet would have such a cavalier attitude at this point. It's as if the entire plot was constructed arbitrarily with no regard for logic, just so they could concoct flimsy contrived excuses to have Kirk meet Spock and then end up taking over the ship ;)
No argument here. It does not paint the leadership in a good light. One is almost forced to conclude that, for unknown reasons, the fleet was so unable to reach Earth in time as to avoid even trying.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Darth Wong »

Bounty wrote:It wouldn't even have been all that difficult to throw in a line to explain the absence ("the fleet will never make it on time"); it's as if the intent was to have a dilemma à la Doomsday Machine (we either run and warn the others, or fight and leave them unprepared), but that plot point, if it ever existed, obviously didn't get properly written in.
It occurs to me that they did the same thing in Nemesis: there was a fleet just sitting there doing nothing while the Enterprise fought the climactic battle alone. Nobody thought to ask why the big E flew in one side of the cloud and never came out the other side. Perhaps it's the same retarded fleet in this case.

It seems to me that "Starfleet" in the Star Trek movies is always meant to be more of a hypothetical concept than a real one. You rarely see it in action; it is always absent for some reason, so that the "hero ship" can save the day alone (STFC being the one exception which comes to mind). It's a Star Trek convention, but it often requires that one take considerable liberties with logic.
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