Star Trek 09 review thread

[Bounty]

One thing about the Narada is that it always fires of big volleys of missiles in one go and then does nothing for a while (Kelvin: one volley, Robeau bites it, one more volley that cripples the ship and goes after the shuttles, nothing while the Kelvin is on its collision course. Enterprise: one volley, then nothing while Nero reads the license plate. Spockmobile: one volley, Spock warps out, one volley, nothing while he's on his ramming course). Maybe it uses missile spam because it has a really, really shitty reloading system?

Suppose those missiles really are originally mining charges. We see one of them get prepped with the red matter, and it's just sitting in the hangar - if that's how the charges work (prep them, manually wheel them into the hangar, drop them out the ship), it could account for the haphazard way in which the Narada fires in battles. After all, on a mining job there's no harm in having a minute or so between dropping charges out of the ship.

And I won't even start on the mishandled "lightning storm" business

Do you mean the black being anything but or Kirk recognizing it?

[Oskuro]

Erm, people, the Enterprise was almost one-shotted over Vulcan, and only survived because Nero ordered a cease-fire. I can easily see how a full barrage would have anihilated the Fed fleet so quickly.

The Kelvin, ok, requires some rationalization. I'm willing to attribute it to the Narada reloading after firing at the shuttles. Although I liked that scene so much I really didn't give it much thought even during my second viewing.

[Havok]

Perhaps in 25 years, they managed to upgrade their munitions even further?

[Darth Wong]

Erm, people, the Enterprise was almost one-shotted over Vulcan, and only survived because Nero ordered a cease-fire. I can easily see how a full barrage would have anihilated the Fed fleet so quickly.

And yet, the Enterprise was later able to shoot down an entire swarm of torpedoes aimed at Spock's ship, seemingly with ease. And really, while it was an ambush in the sense that a heavily armed ship awaited them, it's not as if Nero would have known the exact location where they would drop out of warp, and be ready to fire on them in 1 second.

[Ilya Muromets]

Erm, people, the Enterprise was almost one-shotted over Vulcan, and only survived because Nero ordered a cease-fire. I can easily see how a full barrage would have anihilated the Fed fleet so quickly.

The Kelvin, ok, requires some rationalization. I'm willing to attribute it to the Narada reloading after firing at the shuttles. Although I liked that scene so much I really didn't give it much thought even during my second viewing.

I tried to rationalize this disparity by attributing it to the fact that Nero and his people were miners not trained space combatants. Couple it with the fact that the Narada was apparently modded way beyond its original specs (if that whole modded with Borg-tech thing is canon), maybe they just hadn't gotten used to their newly weaponized vessel yet and suffered from coordination problems among the firing crew (possibly crews, given the ship's size) in reloading and firing. In addition, maybe they worked out some kind of crew combat drills in the past 25 years, which would explain better performance versus the Klingons and Starfleet.

[Ilya Muromets]

ghetto edit: It'd be like slapping on a bunch of VLS tubes, fire control systems, and combat radar on a cargo ship and have the merchant crew try to figure it out all on their own. Even if you left some instructions on how to use the whole shebang, the cargo ship's crew would likely still have shitty weapons performance.

[Gil Hamilton]

To be honest, I'm willing to forgive ALOT in a StarTrek film if it is entertaining. StarTrek, right from the beginning, has always been scientifically dumb and full of villains and plots that don't make alot of sense. TOS was chock full of premises that were realistically goofy in the extreme or scenes/acting/creatures/machines that were LAUGHABLY poor.

Like the Narada was silly and somewhat matches that description of that gun in Hitchhiker's Guide of the Galaxy*, but TOS has a planet destroying space penis made of pure neutronium ("The Doomsday Machine"). Nero didn't come across as well thought out as he could have been, but then again, TOS had that guy whose government's supercomputer would assign casualties in a fictional nuclear war, and he expected the Enterprise crew to voluntarily surrender themselves to be incinerated because it declared them all casualties ("A Taste of Armageddon"). Or those light up plastic brains which captured Kirk for purposes of gambling (I forget the title, but it was a silly episode which I think existed because Shatner must have had a clause in his contract that gives him a quota per season make out scenes).

And of course, lets not forget this:
The Infamous Gorn Captain Fight Scene

Was the new StarTrek movie REALLY that offensively bad compared to the original?

*

The designer of the gun had clearly not been instructed to beat about the bush. "Make it evil," he'd been told. "Make it totally clear that this gun has a right end and a wrong end. Make it totally clear to anyone standing at the wrong end that things are going badly for them. If that means sticking all sort of spikes and prongs and blackened bits all over it then so be it. This is not a gun for hanging over the fireplace or sticking in the umbrella stand, it is a gun for going out and making people miserable with."

[Oskuro]

And yet, the Enterprise was later able to shoot down an entire swarm of torpedoes aimed at Spock's ship, seemingly with ease.

Yeah, no argument there, the Spockmobile should have taken a few hits (it was a super-advanced ship, maybe its shields could have been shown withstanding more damage?).
Now, pondering a bit about the inability of PD to stop incoming missiles versus missiles aimed at others, maybe the whole spliting into various warheads thing is an anti-PD measure, wich only activates upon detecting incoming fire from the target, so it might help rationalize why fire coming from a different direction ends up blasting the whole warhead.
I really don't remember the scenes with enough detail to be sure this theory holds water, but I remember at least that in the instances where torpedoes are shot before hitting others (Spockmobile/Shuttles), it was the whole Torpedo that got hit, not the fragmented cluster.
Maybe they have a minimun range before they arm themselves and split appart?

And really, while it was an ambush in the sense that a heavily armed ship awaited them, it's not as if Nero would have known the exact location where they would drop out of warp, and be ready to fire on them in 1 second.

But, on the other hand, the fleet would have emerged into a situation where their communicators and transporters were being blocked, and let me wager their first instinct would have been to make contact with the Narada rather than going into full alert. Add a torpedo volley into what probably was a mess of uncoordinated cadet-manned vessels, and you get super-happy funtimes, with an extra side order of ships crashing into others trying to frantically get out of the way and secondary damage due to cores blowing up and debries scattering like crazy.
It would have been one of those situations where the word Clusterfuck ceases to be appropiate.

Oh, and if you're referring to the Enterprise, I'd say dodging starship fragments probably gave the Narada enough time to lock on them.

[Terralthra]

[*]OK, so you're Captain Pike and you've just been made aware that you're probably warping into an ambush. Don't you think it would be logical to ... oh, I dunno ... change course or drop out of warp a little early, instead of going exactly where you're expected to? Sorry, but raising shields was hardly adequate response to the discovery that you're walking into an ambush. It seems that Pike was promoted to Admiral after this debacle because Starfleet still has a policy of putting incompetent captains into the Admiralty before they can do any more damage.

Spock's dialogue at the time strongly implied that dropping out of warp before the planned reentry point was very hazardous.

Also, I can't be 100% sure until I see it on DVD, but I'm almost certain that Starfleet Academy is actually located in the east bay area, not SF. When the Narada attacks Earth, there is a view from the Academy courtyard onto the spot where the drill is hitting the bay, with the Golden Gate bridge in almost perpendicular in the background from across kilometers of water. You can't get that kind of view in SF.

[Stark]

let me wager their first instinct would have been to make contact with the Narada rather than going into full alert. Add a torpedo volley into what probably was a mess of uncoordinated cadet-manned vessels, and you get super-happy funtimes, with an extra side order of ships crashing into others trying to frantically get out of the way and secondary damage due to cores blowing up and debries scattering like crazy.

Eh? The Enterprise was full of cadets and worked fine (aside from bridge crew 'humorous' incompetnece). The Kelvin went defensive with plenty of time (once the Narada emerged and then locked onto them). The massive range and slow speed of Narada's projectiles also works against this idea.

[Darth Wong]

But, on the other hand, the fleet would have emerged into a situation where their communicators and transporters were being blocked, and let me wager their first instinct would have been to make contact with the Narada rather than going into full alert.

Dude, the Narada was drilling a hole into the planet Vulcan. What kind of idiot would go to anything but full alert? Do you really think they'd need to politely ask them why they're drilling a hole into the planet before deciding to go to full alert?

[lPeregrine]

But, on the other hand, the fleet would have emerged into a situation where their communicators and transporters were being blocked, and let me wager their first instinct would have been to make contact with the Narada rather than going into full alert.

Dude, the Narada was drilling a hole into the planet Vulcan. What kind of idiot would go to anything but full alert? Do you really think they'd need to politely ask them why they're drilling a hole into the planet before deciding to go to full alert?

If I remember it right, I thought they didn't know Vulcan was being attacked? I forget the exact words, but I thought the original message implied that it was some kind of natural disaster? I mean, if everyone knew it was an attack, why would Kirk have to argue with them to convince them that it's a trap?

If that's true, the whole ambush against an unprepared target scenario sounds a lot more plausible. Well, at least as plausible as starfleet's general refusal to raise shields unless absolutely necessary.

[Gandalf]

If I remember it right, I thought they didn't know Vulcan was being attacked? I forget the exact words, but I thought the original message implied that it was some kind of natural disaster?

Correct.

The Enterprise was on its way to assist with evacuation.

[Stark]

Keep up lads. Oskuro is saying the fleet would have communicated with Narada rather than taken an immediate combat stance.

When the Narada was OBVIOUSLY drilling a fucking great hole into Vulcan.

This idea is preposterous.

[Oskuro]

Dude, the Narada was drilling a hole into the planet Vulcan. What kind of idiot would go to anything but full alert? Do you really think they'd need to politely ask them why they're drilling a hole into the planet before deciding to go to full alert?

Starfleet idiots.


Ok, I'm being too harsh here, after all, this is a reboot, they need not be as retarded as the previous versions. Still, I stand by the notion that upon arrival, Starfleet's first instinct (and a rational one at that, seeing how the Narada was an unknown Romulan ship) would have been to open a channel and try to find out what the hell they were doing with the drill, as well as order them to stop. So, they might have given the "full alert" order, but I very much doubt they would have gone in guns blazing before the Narada opened up on them.

Also, the point of them being on a rescue mission is important. The ENT had a few precious seconds to get the crew ready for action, while the rest of the fleet really had no idea of what they were walking into, and unless starfleet personnel have personal teleporters and their senses tuned into the ship's sensors, thus giving them instant reaction times, those seconds of frantic running to man their posts could have been enough to allow the Narada to fire unopposed.

Also, writers fiat, I'm just trying to rationalize.

[Patroklos]

Ok, I'm being too harsh here, after all, this is a reboot, they need not be as retarded as the previous versions. Still, I stand by the notion that upon arrival, Starfleet's first instinct (and a rational one at that, seeing how the Narada was an unknown Romulan ship) would have been to open a channel and try to find out what the hell they were doing with the drill, as well as order them to stop. So, they might have given the "full alert" order, but I very much doubt they would have gone in guns blazing before the Narada opened up on them.

No, that does not make sense. For one, the Federation and Romulans are not on good terms in this time frame, the Romulans and Vulcans are ESPECIALLY not on good terms. The Romulan ship could have been sitting there doing nothing and it would still illicit an immediate call to arms by the Federation.

To make the whole fleet destroyed immediately after leaving warp (are sensors no longer able to opperate at warp speed in this timeline?) more retarded is the fact that the Narada was tethered to a drilling rig, which means not only did the Narada have to know exactly where these ships were coming out of warp but it had to coincide with exactly where they were drilling.

[Lonestar]

No, that does not make sense. For one, the Federation and Romulans are not on good terms in this time frame, the Romulans and Vulcans are ESPECIALLY not on good terms. The Romulan ship could have been sitting there doing nothing and it would still illicit an immediate call to arms by the Federation.

For added hilarity, I guess there are no longrange comms antennas elsewhere in the Vulcan system to immediately start broadcasting that a big-ass ship has entered orbit over Vulcan and is digging a hole into it.

To make the whole fleet destroyed immediately after leaving warp (are sensors no longer able to opperate at warp speed in this timeline?) more retarded is the fact that the Narada was tethered to a drilling rig, which means not only did the Narada have to know exactly where these ships were coming out of warp but it had to coincide with exactly where they were drilling.

Even better, bringing the fleet out of warp right over Vulcan. If all they know is that there has been some kind of "disaster" at Vulcan, wouldn't it be more prudent to enter the Vulcan System farther out, then micro-jump in?

[tim31]

This doesn't remove from the fact that they probably did come out of warp right on top of the Narada; the Enterprise arrives in the same orbital sector despite a thirty second delay. In this time the Earth would have moved about 900 kilometres further along its orbit; no idea about Vulcan, but it still shows an interesting angle on superluminal navigation.

[Oskuro]

Yeah, the whole thing is contrived, to say the least, but, for rationalization's sake, the Narada could detect incoming ships (the ENT in the final scene) with a few seconds warning, and the crew were probably expecting trouble while drilling Vulcan, so guess it all comes down to the SF fleet coincidentally dropping out of warp just before the Narada, and giving it a clear shot.

For added hilarity, I guess there are no longrange comms antennas elsewhere in the Vulcan system to immediately start broadcasting that a big-ass ship has entered orbit over Vulcan and is digging a hole into it.

More hilarious is the fact that they somehow managed to alert Starfleet of the seismic activity, but not of the massive ship. It could be argued that the drill rendered their sensors blind, and as such they couldn't see what was in orbit (since telescopes are so primitive they've been shunned). But for such a logical and smart species, missing the massive beam of DOOM and claiming it's all due to seismic activity is pretty retarded.... Unless the distress call was a ruse by the Narada to lure starfleet into the fray, but that would be unlikely.


By the way, I just got the following idea. Couldn't the drilling beam be mounted on a turret and used as a massive beam weapon to cut enemies in half? Or does it require an atmosphere to work, hence the dangling chain?

[tim31]

Ugh... Do we even want to go there?

[General Zod]

By the way, I just got the following idea. Couldn't the drilling beam be mounted on a turret and used as a massive beam weapon to cut enemies in half? Or does it require an atmosphere to work, hence the dangling chain?

We went over that already, I think. The general idea seems to be that the drill fucks with electronics so much that you pretty much have to have it away from your ship in order to avoid damaging the circuitry.

[Patroklos]

Also, why did hell did Vulcan send out a distress call at all? So the Narada is drilling a hole into the crust a few meters wide, so what? Why would that cause anyting other than extremely local disturbances? More importantly, why would that elicit an evacuation requiring a fleet of starships. Does vulcan itself not have hundreds if not thousands of transporters for everyday use on the planet? Even if not it is a primarly Federation planet of 6 billion, are we to assume that such a society doesn't have the capabilities for some simple evactuation?

Stupid stupid stupis.

[Darth Wong]

By the way, I just got the following idea. Couldn't the drilling beam be mounted on a turret and used as a massive beam weapon to cut enemies in half? Or does it require an atmosphere to work, hence the dangling chain?

We went over that already, I think. The general idea seems to be that the drill fucks with electronics so much that you pretty much have to have it away from your ship in order to avoid damaging the circuitry.

Because 24th century engineers have lost the secret of shielding their electronics? Why wasn't Spock's tiny gyroship affected by proximity to the drill head, when he attacked it?

[Ryan Thunder]

Was Spock's ship ever meant for serious combat? Why should a ship be particularly tough when its designed for speed, scientific study, and observation?

[The Nomad]

Because 24th century engineers have lost the secret of shielding their electronics? Why wasn't Spock's tiny gyroship affected by proximity to the drill head, when he attacked it?

Considering the 'Spockmobile' had been specifically commissionned by the Vulcan Science Academy to deal with what are deemed extremely hazardous environments (supernovae and small black holes), I'd speculate that its electronics are actually extremely well-shielded even by 24th century standards. Thus, even if the drill generated enough interferences to fuck up the electronics of 23rd century ships and most 24th century ones, it would have much less effects on the SM.

EDIT: come to think of it, I can't recall if the ship had actually been purpose-built for the operation. I suppose they'd have sent a ship suited to the mission's dangers (huge suped-up Romulan mining ship crewed by vengeful maniacs notwithstanding), anyway