StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Well, from time to time I keep trying to catagorize the Starfleet ships as to how they would fall. Cruiser, destroyer, battleship, etc...

Last time I did this the Sovereign made the Battleship listing, however I have come to realize that you don't always go for ships that big. Starfleet has a fair number of ships, but they just don't seem to go for the truly heavy ships. So hear goes.

Pocketbattleship:
Prometheus

While not a true class per say, it is a level of Battleship. A Pocket battleship has traditionally weaker weapons overall compared to a battlecruiser, but it has superior shielding and armor. The Prometheus seems to be less powerful then the Sovereign, but it has superior shielding and armor to it.

Battlecruiser:
Sovereign class

This ship is very powerful for its size. Infact it seems to go for Battleship size weaponry, but at the expense of shields and armor. So this makes it a Battlecruiser. Powerful, but not as heavily shielded or armored as it could be.

Heavy Cruiser:
Galaxy class
Ambassador class

Both of these ships seem to have been built as some of the most powerful Starfleet ships. They have a combination of good shields and decent weapons. They can stand up against most other enemy ships. The Ambassador though is an older ship and does not stand up as well as it once did.

Guided Missile Cruiser:
Akira class
Nebula class

Both of these ships are heavy on torpedoes, though relatively light on phasers. Their mission seems to be to destroy the enemy at long range without getting into the thick of battle. They sacrafice other systems just for their torpedoes.

Light Cruiser:
Excelsior class
Intrepid class
Steamrunner

While the Excelsior was at one point a Battlecruiser, its age has forced it to be downgraded. Both the Excelsior and Intrepid are relatively fast ships with a somewhat light weapons load-out. They can operate on independent missions or as part of larger task forces. The Steamrunner seems to be the replacement for the Excelsior in fleet actions while the Intrepid seems to be more of an independent vessel.

Heavy Destroyer:
Defiant

Heavy destroyers are not your typical ship. Infact they aren't even a real class. However the Defiant is obviously a support and escort type ship for other larger vessels, it is also very heavily armed for its size. It works best in packs, as do other good destroyers, but they happen to be very powerful.

Guided Missile destroyer:
New Orleans

An older ship class with a series of torpedo launchers strapped to the outer hull. Designed as a support ship to escort larger ships, it has a significant torpedo capacity to drive off larger ships. Probably used in combination with guided missile cruisers.

Destroyer:
Miranda
Norway
Sabre
Centaur

The Miranda, once one of the most powerful Federation ships, now relegated to destroyer work as it was outclassed. The Centaur, a ship built from Excelsior and Miranda parts to create a relatively heavily armed small ship for escort. Both the Norway and Sabre are newer escorts that seem to be designed with minimal frontal cross sections while providing good weapon arcs. Their size indicates they escort larger ships and drive off enemy ships while in packs, if not exactly destroying them.

Ok, comments, suggestions, disagreements, death threats?

My view on the categorization of Federation ships is:

Battleship:
Sovereign Class

Heavy weapons and shields. It does not seem to have as much armor as other ships do, but its Ablative armor is just as strong as the normal armor on other ships. The Sovereign, however, does not suffer the same lack of manuverability as other battleships do, though.

Battlecruiser
Prometheus Class.

Not quite as strong as a Sovereign class starship, but very impressive shields, armor and weapons for a ship its size.

Heavy Cruiser:
Galaxy Class
Nebula Class
Ambassador Class

These ships are larger Federation ships. They have a good loadout of weapons and decent armor. These ships were once the strongest ships in Starfleet.

Heavy Guided Missile Cruisers:
Akira Class

With it's 15 Photon/Quantum Torpedo launchers, a small force of these could spell trouble for a larger fleet, especially if they are escorted by a group of Defiants.

Medium Cruisers:
Excelsior Class
Constellation Class
These are older models of Federation starships, but are still seen in service today. They pack medium amounts of weapons, shields and armor. They still fill a needed role in the Federation.

Light Cruisers:
Intrepid Class
Norway Class

This ship packs a medium amount of weapons, shields, and armor; but not quite enough, in my view, to have it qualify as a medium cruiser.

Destroyers:
Miranda Class
Saber Class

These ships are light ships that usually attack enemy ships in packs. The newer Sabers are phasing out the older Mirandas. The Sabers pack more advanced phasers, torpedoes and shields and armor, which is much needed in a galaxy that is constantly changing.

Heavy Destroyer:
Defiant Class

Packs almost as much weaponry as a Galaxy Class starship in a ship the size of a Corvette. It is also very manuverable. It's shields and armor aren't as strong as those found on a Galaxy class, but are more than capable of withstanding an assault from a Klingon Vor'cha Class Attack Cruiser.

Pocketbattleship:
Prometheus

While not a true class per say, it is a level of Battleship. A Pocket battleship has traditionally weaker weapons overall compared to a battlecruiser, but it has superior shielding and armor. The Prometheus seems to be less powerful then the Sovereign, but it has superior shielding and armor to it.

The pocket battleship has battleship weapons in a cruiser hull, for example, the Graf Spee had 11-inch guns on a 10,000 ton cruiser hull, resulting in (more than) 14,000 tonnes displacement. The armour in the hull was the same. SO, in all sense, a pocket battleship can be called a battlecruiser.

I think there wouldn't be a problem reclassifying it as a battlecruiser, since it's a "new" design, it can fulfill it's duties equaly with the Sovereign.
Also, if there are only two of the Sovereign class (Sovereign itself and the Enterprise, I know, I know, the E is the sole ship of it's class), and one of the Prometheus, then it's possible the Starfleet hasn't made up it's mind about which heavy should give priority.



About the Steamrunner, shouldn't it be a guided-missile cruiser? We only saw it in FC, but I always thought it fullfiled a similar job as the Akira.

Has anyone seen any evidence of SF Dreadnoughts in other canonical references? I've always been fascinated with the whole idea of a dreadnought - an uber warship- but have only seen it mentioned in some novelizations and the SFBattles game.

I don't think any of the shows even makes reference to dreadnoughts of any government (with the possible exception of that massive Dominion battleship in the last season of DS - but I believe they called it a Battleship.)

I'm currently writing a fanfic based in OS timeline and would like to have any other info available on SF dreadnoughts if you guys happen to know of any.

Stravo, the only ships in ST that I've seen that even approach the designation of "dreadnaught" are the Klingon Negh'Var and the largest Dominion warship.

I agree that the Sovereign MUST be classified as a battleship. Not only does it appear more powerful than any other observed UFP ship (with the possible exception of the Prometheus), but it is also very heavily shielded and armored, relative to other ship classes, as shown in "Nemesis."

the prometheus is a funky ship. it seems to me that the logic behind it was that it would serve as a multi role combat craft. In it's joined configuration it can serve as a pocket battleship, but also as a trio of frigates/corvettes multi vector attack mode.

Stravo wrote:Has anyone seen any evidence of SF Dreadnoughts in other canonical references? I've always been fascinated with the whole idea of a dreadnought - an uber warship- but have only seen it mentioned in some novelizations and the SFBattles game.

I don't think any of the shows even makes reference to dreadnoughts of any government (with the possible exception of that massive Dominion battleship in the last season of DS - but I believe they called it a Battleship.)

I'm currently writing a fanfic based in OS timeline and would like to have any other info available on SF dreadnoughts if you guys happen to know of any.

It's too bad that the Federation class isn't accepted. Personally, I don't see why it shouldn't be.

Frank Hipper wrote:

Stravo wrote:Has anyone seen any evidence of SF Dreadnoughts in other canonical references? I've always been fascinated with the whole idea of a dreadnought - an uber warship- but have only seen it mentioned in some novelizations and the SFBattles game.

I don't think any of the shows even makes reference to dreadnoughts of any government (with the possible exception of that massive Dominion battleship in the last season of DS - but I believe they called it a Battleship.)

I'm currently writing a fanfic based in OS timeline and would like to have any other info available on SF dreadnoughts if you guys happen to know of any.

It's too bad that the Federation class isn't accepted. Personally, I don't see why it shouldn't be.

that was a pretty cool looking ship, as was the Galxy class three nacelled 'dreadnought' in All Good Things.....wait, does that count?

Pocket battleship is not an actual designation of any real warship type. Its just a bit of slag created by Churchill. The Germans always called them heavy or armored cruisers, which are the same thing.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Pocket battleship is not an actual designation of any real warship type. Its just a bit of slag created by Churchill. The Germans always called them heavy or armored cruisers, which are the same thing.

Knew you'd jump on that one, SeaSkimmer.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Pocket battleship is not an actual designation of any real warship type. Its just a bit of slag created by Churchill. The Germans always called them heavy or armored cruisers, which are the same thing.

So it's the Prometheus class Panzerkreuzer then

Stravo wrote:Has anyone seen any evidence of SF Dreadnoughts in other canonical references? I've always been fascinated with the whole idea of a dreadnought - an uber warship- but have only seen it mentioned in some novelizations and the SFBattles game.

I don't think any of the shows even makes reference to dreadnoughts of any government (with the possible exception of that massive Dominion battleship in the last season of DS - but I believe they called it a Battleship.)

I'm currently writing a fanfic based in OS timeline and would like to have any other info available on SF dreadnoughts if you guys happen to know of any.

Nope, sorry. David Weber is the one with a fetish for dreadnoughts, not B&B. Course, knowing B&B, their "dreadnought" would probably be some pathetic piece of shit that blows up when Voyager comes across it.

Col. Crackpot wrote:

Frank Hipper wrote:

Stravo wrote:Has anyone seen any evidence of SF Dreadnoughts in other canonical references? I've always been fascinated with the whole idea of a dreadnought - an uber warship- but have only seen it mentioned in some novelizations and the SFBattles game.

I don't think any of the shows even makes reference to dreadnoughts of any government (with the possible exception of that massive Dominion battleship in the last season of DS - but I believe they called it a Battleship.)

I'm currently writing a fanfic based in OS timeline and would like to have any other info available on SF dreadnoughts if you guys happen to know of any.

It's too bad that the Federation class isn't accepted. Personally, I don't see why it shouldn't be.

that was a pretty cool looking ship, as was the Galxy class three nacelled 'dreadnought' in All Good Things.....wait, does that count?

No. Trek history is pretty clearly not following the timeline Q showed.

Cpt_Frank wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:Pocket battleship is not an actual designation of any real warship type. Its just a bit of slag created by Churchill. The Germans always called them heavy or armored cruisers, which are the same thing.

So it's the Prometheus class Panzerkreuzer then

[nitpick]panzerschiff[/nitpick]


Blucher was the last armored cruiser in the German navy.

Frank Hipper wrote:

Cpt_Frank wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:Pocket battleship is not an actual designation of any real warship type. Its just a bit of slag created by Churchill. The Germans always called them heavy or armored cruisers, which are the same thing.

So it's the Prometheus class Panzerkreuzer then

[nitpick]panzerschiff[/nitpick]


Blucher was the last armored cruiser in the German navy.

Actually, the 'pocket battleships' Lützow and Admiral Graf Spee were officially designated Panzerkreuzer = armoured cruiser.

Cpt_Frank wrote:

Frank Hipper wrote:[nitpick]panzerschiff[/nitpick]


Blucher was the last armored cruiser in the German navy.

Actually, the 'pocket battleships' Lützow and Admiral Graf Spee were officially designated Panzerkreuzer = armoured cruiser.

It would appear our sources disagree, then. Back to Star Trek, people. Nothing to see here.

The Galaxy class is more like a battleship, than a heavy cruiser.

Edit: I believe it's canon that the Exelsior class is a heavy cruiser.

Warspite wrote:The pocket battleship has battleship weapons in a cruiser hull,

That is incorrect. A Battlecruiser has battleship weapons on a cruiser hull. A Pocket battleship has weaker weapons then a battleship but greater protection then a Battlecruiser.

TrekWarsie wrote:Heavy Cruiser:
Galaxy Class
Nebula Class
Ambassador Class

These ships are larger Federation ships. They have a good loadout of weapons and decent armor. These ships were once the strongest ships in Starfleet.

Heavy Guided Missile Cruisers:
Akira Class

With it's 15 Photon/Quantum Torpedo launchers, a small force of these could spell trouble for a larger fleet, especially if they are escorted by a group of Defiants.

The Nebula belongs on the Heavy Guided Missile cruiser list. Its got a heavier phaser loadout compared to the Akira and has equal torpedo capacity. The Nebula has 10 torpedo launchers, however 2 of them are large GCS launchers while the other 8 are similar to the Akira. That gives them almost equal torpedo capacity.

Warspite wrote:About the Steamrunner, shouldn't it be a guided-missile cruiser? We only saw it in FC, but I always thought it fullfiled a similar job as the Akira.

Actually we see the Steamrunner several times throughout DS9. It seems to be heavier on phasers then the Akira and lighter on torpedoes. Its design is also "hardier" compared to the Akira with how the warp engines are built into the ship itself.

Aya wrote:The Galaxy class is more like a battleship, than a heavy cruiser.

Edit: I believe it's canon that the Exelsior class is a heavy cruiser.

The Consitution Class was once a Battle cruiser, then it was replaced by the Excelsior. The Excelsior used to be powerful, however it is now out matched by a large number of other ships and would be relegated to the role of light cruiser.

The Galaxy certainly does not have Battleship status. Its not powerful enough nor does it have enough weapons or defenses. The Sovereign could theoretically be classed a Battleship, but most certainly not a GCS.

And to those who like to call the GCS a Battleship. A fleet does not need to fill every single class out there. The USN only has up to Cruisers, not even Heavy Cruisers anymore.

Alyeska wrote:

Warspite wrote:The pocket battleship has battleship weapons in a cruiser hull,

That is incorrect. A Battlecruiser has battleship weapons on a cruiser hull. A Pocket battleship has weaker weapons then a battleship but greater protection then a Battlecruiser.

I disagree, the armour from the Graf Spee (Lutzow Class) is equal to the Prinz Eugen (Hipper Class) or the Scharnhorst (class namesake), with sligth variations. The guns for the cruisers are 8" (per Naval Treaties), placing them in the Heavy Cruiser category, granted, the Bismarck had 14" guns.

But we stray, discussing naval semantics is not for this topic.

Actually we see the Steamrunner several times throughout DS9. It seems to be heavier on phasers then the Akira and lighter on torpedoes. Its design is also "hardier" compared to the Akira with how the warp engines are built into the ship itself.

I've only seen a few episodes from DS9's 1st season, I only saw the Steamrunner in action in FC, so okay. Couldn't it be a complement to the Akira?

Alyeska wrote:Well, from time to time I keep trying to catagorize the Starfleet ships as to how they would fall. Cruiser, destroyer, battleship, etc...

Always fun

Last time I did this the Sovereign made the Battleship listing, however I have come to realize that you don't always go for ships that big. Starfleet has a fair number of ships, but they just don't seem to go for the truly heavy ships. So hear goes.

Pocketbattleship:
Prometheus

While not a true class per say, it is a level of Battleship. A Pocket battleship has traditionally weaker weapons overall compared to a battlecruiser, but it has superior shielding and armor. The Prometheus seems to be less powerful then the Sovereign, but it has superior shielding and armor to it.

You think so?

The only Sovereign we've seen took a real beating
in ST:N. Prometheus seemed to be in danger of losing
shields--while "integrated" anyway--from a standard
Warbirds' attacks.

I'd have to say the PCS's offensive strength far overshadows
her defenses. I doubt a Sovvie could blow a Warbird apart
the way she did in "Message..."

Thus, I'd categorize the PCS as an attack cruiser.

Battlecruiser:
Sovereign class

This ship is very powerful for its size. Infact it seems to go for Battleship size weaponry, but at the expense of shields and armor. So this makes it a Battlecruiser. Powerful, but not as heavily shielded or armored as it could be.

Perhaps not, but the SCS definitely has the strongest shields we've
ever seen on a Starfleet ship...previously, a D'Deridex-class
Warbird was able to take down the E-D's shields with maybe
ten shots, if we extrapolate from "Tin Man." (Roughly seven
shots dropped the E's shields down to 30%.)

I don't doubt that Galaxy shields are stronger now, too.
But I also doubt they could take the kind of pounding E-E
did in "Nemesis," withstanding dozens of disruptor hits from
a clearly very powerful warship.

I'd have to categorize the Sovereign as a true battleship.
Her shields and weapons are both about the best Starfleet
can manage...and with the new torpedo tubes, it's entirely
possible the SCS now outguns the Prometheus.

Heavy Cruiser:
Galaxy class
Ambassador class

Both of these ships seem to have been built as some of the most powerful Starfleet ships. They have a combination of good shields and decent weapons. They can stand up against most other enemy ships. The Ambassador though is an older ship and does not stand up as well as it once did.

Agreed. I might categorize the GCS as a battleship, myself, since
their offensive strength is still staggering; furthermore, they seem
to be one of the few classes that didn't take extreme losses
when we see battles in the Dominion War. Thus, by sheer volume
or defenses, they're hard to kill, too. That could fit the BB
definition well enough.

Guided Missile Cruiser:
Akira class
Nebula class

Both of these ships are heavy on torpedoes, though relatively light on phasers. Their mission seems to be to destroy the enemy at long range without getting into the thick of battle. They sacrafice other systems just for their torpedoes.

The Akira is definitely sorta light on phasers. The Nebula?
With pretty much the same saucer as the GCS, I wouldn't go that far.
I'd categorize both as heavy cruisers, but you're right in that they
both have heavy torpedo armaments...

Light Cruiser:
Excelsior class
Intrepid class
Steamrunner

While the Excelsior was at one point a Battlecruiser, its age has forced it to be downgraded. Both the Excelsior and Intrepid are relatively fast ships with a somewhat light weapons load-out. They can operate on independent missions or as part of larger task forces. The Steamrunner seems to be the replacement for the Excelsior in fleet actions while the Intrepid seems to be more of an independent vessel.

Looks good. Given her sheer size, I might consider the Excelsior
a heavier cruiser-type, and they can be upgraded to make a fairly
mean ship (Lakota).

Heavy Destroyer:
Defiant

Heavy destroyers are not your typical ship. Infact they aren't even a real class. However the Defiant is obviously a support and escort type ship for other larger vessels, it is also very heavily armed for its size. It works best in packs, as do other good destroyers, but they happen to be very powerful.

Guided Missile destroyer:
New Orleans

An older ship class with a series of torpedo launchers strapped to the outer hull. Designed as a support ship to escort larger ships, it has a significant torpedo capacity to drive off larger ships. Probably used in combination with guided missile cruisers.

I'd probably consider the New Orleans a frigate.

Destroyer:
Miranda
Norway
Sabre
Centaur

The Miranda, once one of the most powerful Federation ships, now relegated to destroyer work as it was outclassed. The Centaur, a ship built from Excelsior and Miranda parts to create a relatively heavily armed small ship for escort. Both the Norway and Sabre are newer escorts that seem to be designed with minimal frontal cross sections while providing good weapon arcs. Their size indicates they escort larger ships and drive off enemy ships while in packs, if not exactly destroying them.

Agreed.

Ok, comments, suggestions, disagreements, death threats?

See above. No death threats

seanrobertson wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Well, from time to time I keep trying to catagorize the Starfleet ships as to how they would fall. Cruiser, destroyer, battleship, etc...

Always fun

Last time I did this the Sovereign made the Battleship listing, however I have come to realize that you don't always go for ships that big. Starfleet has a fair number of ships, but they just don't seem to go for the truly heavy ships. So hear goes.

Pocketbattleship:
Prometheus

While not a true class per say, it is a level of Battleship. A Pocket battleship has traditionally weaker weapons overall compared to a battlecruiser, but it has superior shielding and armor. The Prometheus seems to be less powerful then the Sovereign, but it has superior shielding and armor to it.

You think so?

The only Sovereign we've seen took a real beating
in ST:N. Prometheus seemed to be in danger of losing
shields--while "integrated" anyway--from a standard
Warbirds' attacks.

I'd have to say the PCS's offensive strength far overshadows
her defenses. I doubt a Sovvie could blow a Warbird apart
the way she did in "Message..."

Thus, I'd categorize the PCS as an attack cruiser.

Battlecruiser:
Sovereign class

This ship is very powerful for its size. Infact it seems to go for Battleship size weaponry, but at the expense of shields and armor. So this makes it a Battlecruiser. Powerful, but not as heavily shielded or armored as it could be.

Perhaps not, but the SCS definitely has the strongest shields we've
ever seen on a Starfleet ship...previously, a D'Deridex-class
Warbird was able to take down the E-D's shields with maybe
ten shots, if we extrapolate from "Tin Man." (Roughly seven
shots dropped the E's shields down to 30%.)

I don't doubt that Galaxy shields are stronger now, too.
But I also doubt they could take the kind of pounding E-E
did in "Nemesis," withstanding dozens of disruptor hits from
a clearly very powerful warship.

I'd have to categorize the Sovereign as a true battleship.
Her shields and weapons are both about the best Starfleet
can manage...and with the new torpedo tubes, it's entirely
possible the SCS now outguns the Prometheus.

Heavy Cruiser:
Galaxy class
Ambassador class

Both of these ships seem to have been built as some of the most powerful Starfleet ships. They have a combination of good shields and decent weapons. They can stand up against most other enemy ships. The Ambassador though is an older ship and does not stand up as well as it once did.

Agreed. I might categorize the GCS as a battleship, myself, since
their offensive strength is still staggering; furthermore, they seem
to be one of the few classes that didn't take extreme losses
when we see battles in the Dominion War. Thus, by sheer volume
or defenses, they're hard to kill, too. That could fit the BB
definition well enough.

Guided Missile Cruiser:
Akira class
Nebula class

Both of these ships are heavy on torpedoes, though relatively light on phasers. Their mission seems to be to destroy the enemy at long range without getting into the thick of battle. They sacrafice other systems just for their torpedoes.

The Akira is definitely sorta light on phasers. The Nebula?
With pretty much the same saucer as the GCS, I wouldn't go that far.
I'd categorize both as heavy cruisers, but you're right in that they
both have heavy torpedo armaments...

Light Cruiser:
Excelsior class
Intrepid class
Steamrunner

While the Excelsior was at one point a Battlecruiser, its age has forced it to be downgraded. Both the Excelsior and Intrepid are relatively fast ships with a somewhat light weapons load-out. They can operate on independent missions or as part of larger task forces. The Steamrunner seems to be the replacement for the Excelsior in fleet actions while the Intrepid seems to be more of an independent vessel.

Looks good. Given her sheer size, I might consider the Excelsior
a heavier cruiser-type, and they can be upgraded to make a fairly
mean ship (Lakota).

Heavy Destroyer:
Defiant

Heavy destroyers are not your typical ship. Infact they aren't even a real class. However the Defiant is obviously a support and escort type ship for other larger vessels, it is also very heavily armed for its size. It works best in packs, as do other good destroyers, but they happen to be very powerful.

Guided Missile destroyer:
New Orleans

An older ship class with a series of torpedo launchers strapped to the outer hull. Designed as a support ship to escort larger ships, it has a significant torpedo capacity to drive off larger ships. Probably used in combination with guided missile cruisers.

I'd probably consider the New Orleans a frigate.

Destroyer:
Miranda
Norway
Sabre
Centaur

The Miranda, once one of the most powerful Federation ships, now relegated to destroyer work as it was outclassed. The Centaur, a ship built from Excelsior and Miranda parts to create a relatively heavily armed small ship for escort. Both the Norway and Sabre are newer escorts that seem to be designed with minimal frontal cross sections while providing good weapon arcs. Their size indicates they escort larger ships and drive off enemy ships while in packs, if not exactly destroying them.

Agreed.

Ok, comments, suggestions, disagreements, death threats?

See above. No death threats

I do not list the Excelsior as a heavy cruiser for the simple mater that it doesn't have the firepower to be considered at that level. Its out classed by the rest of the heavy cruisers by a LARGE margin.

As to the Nebula. I most certainly list it as a Guided Missile Cruiser, and a heavy one at that. It has 10 torpedo launchers, 2 of those are of the same size as the GCS launchers while the other 8 are similar to the Akira's. It has greater forward torpedo capacity, and it has superior phaser capabilities. The Nebula with observed information can fire either 34 torpedoes (forward) to the Akira's 45, or theoretically fire 44 torpedoes to the Akira's 45. However the Akira can only fire 27 forward torpedoes to the Nebula's minimum of 34.

Now doesn't the Akira fit in as an Escort carrier as well? The three massive shuttle bays (1 fore 2 aft) carry a fair number of perigines...at least 2 dozen from what i understand.