Wide-angle phaser stuns?

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-01-18 04:08pm

My question: how often do we actually observe them in Trek, particularly post-TOS Trek? I can't remember many incidents off the top of my head. Also, has there *EVER* been an incidence of a phaser set to wide-angle "kill" or "disintegrate"?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-18 04:36pm

The only one I can think of off-hand is when the Enterprise fired its phasers at the gangsters on a planet's surface. Other than that, I can't remember any other occurences.

Blaze · Post by **Blaze** » 2003-01-18 05:50pm

i think in an ep of voyager tuvok used it to take out all the bridge crew, thou i dont remember y

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-18 07:05pm

Twice.

i think in an ep of voyager tuvok used it to take out all the bridge crew, thou i dont remember y

This was "Cathexis."

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-18 07:49pm

Wide-angle stun has been used before. Wide-angle kill has not.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-01-18 07:52pm

From www.startrek.com [img]http://supreme_sheridan.tripod.com/images/phaser_wide.txt[/img]

Since the whole bridge crew was (unfortunatly) not killed, this is obviously stun.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-01-18 08:27pm

Darth Wong wrote:Wide-angle stun has been used before. Wide-angle kill has not.

Is wide-angle kill possible? Or is it just that nobody ever needed to do it?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-01-18 08:29pm

You would think that wide-angle stun would be standard practice when dealing with lots of shipboard situations. Stun 'em all and then sort things out.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-01-18 08:31pm

neoolong wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Wide-angle stun has been used before. Wide-angle kill has not.
Is wide-angle kill possible? Or is it just that nobody ever needed to do it?

Possibly, maybe on a higher setting then for a narrow beam, due to dispersal. After all, wasn't Riker going to blow a building with a setting 16 wide?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-18 08:32pm

neoolong wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Wide-angle stun has been used before. Wide-angle kill has not.
Is wide-angle kill possible? Or is it just that nobody ever needed to do it?

Unknown. I have seen vehement arguments both ways, but I tend to think it is not. In ST:Nemesis, we saw a large group of Reman forces moving in a tight pack through the E-E's corridors. A single SF officer, armed with a wide-angle kill phaser, could have killed them all fairly quickly. Instead, we saw a prolonged conflict with some casualties on both sides.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-01-18 09:00pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
neoolong wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Wide-angle stun has been used before. Wide-angle kill has not.
Is wide-angle kill possible? Or is it just that nobody ever needed to do it?
Unknown. I have seen vehement arguments both ways, but I tend to think it is not. In ST:Nemesis, we saw a large group of Reman forces moving in a tight pack through the E-E's corridors. A single SF officer, armed with a wide-angle kill phaser, could have killed them all fairly quickly. Instead, we saw a prolonged conflict with some casualties on both sides.

Oh, come, come... That was for dramatic effect!
Besides, if it was to be equal to TWOK, it would have to have a prolonged fight...

Since the energy type is the same for stun and kill settings (not the level), then it is possible to use a wide beam kill.
Perhaps, this mode of firing depletes most of the phaser's charge and is not advisable. Hence, we haven't seen it in use.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-01-18 09:03pm

Warspite wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:
neoolong wrote: Is wide-angle kill possible? Or is it just that nobody ever needed to do it?
Unknown. I have seen vehement arguments both ways, but I tend to think it is not. In ST:Nemesis, we saw a large group of Reman forces moving in a tight pack through the E-E's corridors. A single SF officer, armed with a wide-angle kill phaser, could have killed them all fairly quickly. Instead, we saw a prolonged conflict with some casualties on both sides.
Oh, come, come... That was for dramatic effect!
Besides, if it was to be equal to TWOK, it would have to have a prolonged fight...

Since the energy type is the same for stun and kill settings (not the level), then it is possible to use a wide beam kill.
Perhaps, this mode of firing depletes most of the phaser's charge and is not advisable. Hence, we haven't seen it in use.

Which doesn't exactly make sense, since phasers can be extremely small. And light, from the way that the holsters look. They can carry more than one.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-01-18 09:48pm

My take on it:

Wide-beam settings have to consume more power than an equivalent narrow-beam setting, simply because you have to project enough energy to stun everyone hit within that area. Setting 16 has to represent the highest level of energy the emitter can handle. Why? Because if it could channel more energy, they'd have a setting higher than 16: sooner or later a situation would arise where it would be tactically useful. Math is not my department, but I'd image that if a body has to be struck with x number of joules to stun it, the phaser is using many times x for a wide-beam shot (although Tuvok's shot is using less power than I expected: I'd always imagined wide-angle as a cone.) Now, if the emitter can only handle say 16x joules, wide-angle kill is impossible because the energy channeled into the emitter is too much for it. So, wide-angle stun would represent the limits of phaser technology.

Thanks by the way to Tsyroc and MoO: the corridor fight in Nemesis was exactly the scene that got me thinking about this.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-18 10:57pm

MOO: By the same token they could have used wide angle stun in that fight to win with ease (or level 4ish which we know is possible from the sweeping for founders) and didn't does that now mean that wide angel stun doesn't exist aswell?

Riker said it exists and I see little reason to doubt him that would not also cast doubt on wide angel stun which we know exists.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-18 11:48pm

neoolong wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Wide-angle stun has been used before. Wide-angle kill has not.
Is wide-angle kill possible? Or is it just that nobody ever needed to do it?

There have been many times when a wide beam kill would have been useful and was not used. Siege of AR-588 was the biggest example, and they had phaser rifles, which should by all rights have considerably more energy available.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-18 11:54pm

TheDarkling wrote:MOO: By the same token they could have used wide angle stun in that fight to win with ease (or level 4ish which we know is possible from the sweeping for founders) and didn't does that now mean that wide angel stun doesn't exist aswell?

Riker said it exists and I see little reason to doubt him that would not also cast doubt on wide angel stun which we know exists.

Where is the statement that the energy of stun and kill settings the same? They seem to me to be COMPLETELY different. The stun setting clearly affects one's nervous system directly, while the kill setting simply vaporizes the body (or part of it, depending on the setting). That indicates a different mechanism of transfering energy, even if it is the same weapon.

Darkling, wide-angle stun may not be effective against the Remans. Stun settings may not be effective against the Remans. We heard that they were "a race bred for war," which most people chalk up to being a hyperbole given their obviously crappy performance. However, if we remember the incident with Roga Danar we recall that he was able to withstand stun shots, indicating that it CAN be done. Now recall that the Remans were also used for the heaviest ground-combat during the Dominion War and we have a viable theory that eliminates nothing but wide-angle kill as an option.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-19 01:04am

So your theory relies upon the Remans being somewhat resistant to phaser stuns, fair enough then I don't really see any evidence of that but I'm not going to argue against it.

However as you mentioned over at SB wide beam wasn't used during the Klingon attack on DS9 and we know they can be stunned, so the none use of a wide beam stun here shows that even when wide beam is available and would be of use it isn't used.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-01-19 03:09am

In the Voyager episode Worst Case Scenario, Tuvok threatens a Holographic Seska with a phaser set on Wide+Kill. Since Seska, holographic or otherwise, is extremely intellegent and second only to 7 of 9 in 1337 hax0ring Voyager's systems, the fact that she beleived Tuvok implies that it is possible.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-01-19 03:27am

In other words it's claimed in dialog like Riker's "blow up a building on setting 16" threat and never demonstrated.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-01-19 09:43am

Actualy in Worst Case Seska threatened to take down a group of Starfleet people with a wide beam stun from her rifle. Which makes no sense, why they didn't just fire first I don't have a clue.

Anways.

We have another example of a wide beam stun in Voy "The Chute". Expecting new prisoners, people crowd around the chute. Instead Janeway comes sliding in and instantly wide beam stuns the first two people right next to her making them all take a step back as Tuvok and some yellowshirts come down the chute.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-19 01:46pm

TheDarkling wrote:However as you mentioned over at SB wide beam wasn't used during the Klingon attack on DS9 and we know they can be stunned, so the none use of a wide beam stun here shows that even when wide beam is available and would be of use it isn't used.

True. I have little explanation for that particular incident. We may simply be dealing with a case of SPECTACULAR stupidity on the part of Star Fleet. Maybe Riker was wrong, and they should start practicing ground warfare more frequently.