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I have thought from time to time about different things they could have done to Insurrection to make it a better movie while still keeping the basic concept.

I had a series of ideas that when put together make for what IMO make a better movie.

First, the Sona don't have their own built ships. Rather when they were kicked out they come into money and manage to buy older ships from other groups. They buy enough of them that they go and conquer the two alien species they had subjigated. Amoung the ships would be a New Orleans, an Ambassador, older Klingon ships and maybe Romulan. Then when the Sona did business with the Dominion they manage to get a hold of a Jem'Hadar Heavy Cruiser (also makes for good continuity).

Ok, and a change with the Baku. They obviously were "agressive" enough that they threw people out, so they also take up arms in defense.

Data gets shot, and he goes nuts. Same thing happens. Now when Picard decides to take action, he uses his crew. They land on the planet using a whole mess of shuttle craft taking all sorts of supplies and guards. They set up shop in the Bakuy village. They even go so far as to bring anti-air weapons.

The E-E runs. It eventually gets run down by the modified Sona ships. The E-E destroys the weaker Klingon and Romulan ships, but is damaged. Riker decides to stay and fight, but launches the Scout which is already fit to fly int he Briar patch to make a run for it. Riker then turns and tries to fight, but is surprised with the subspace weapon. After defeating the tear, Riker decides to set a trap. He identifies pockets of gas that disrupt senors (it IS a nebula after all). Riker lays a series of mines in the gas. Then he procedes to trick the Sona ships (the New Orleans and Ambassador) by placing a sensor bouy pretending to be the Enterprise. Riker hides in another sensor blind spot with a small probe outside. The Sona ships move in to attack and fly through the sensor blind spot, then their shields get decimated by the mines. Riker pops out and finishes off both ships.

On the planet itself Picard never runs from the town. He sets up defenses and even has some automatic defenses. The Sona try and attack with shuttles, but are quickly shot down. They move in with ground forces and drones and the fighting is heavy. Eventually Picard is captured, as well as several starfleet security troopers. Picard still manages to talk down the second in command. He alters security and manages to get weapons for Picard and his security staff. Riker shows up and starts attacking the Sona command ship (Dominion Heavy Cruiser). This creats a distraction. The second in command helps get Picard in position where Picard and the security soldiers them storm the bridge. Then Picard fires on the collector destroying it and forces the Enterprise to cease fire.

You can still keep the basic plot, but now you have more action with better tactics. Hell, you can still keep some of Datas talking with the kid, only this time he has his Emotions chip.

I think the basic plot needs to be fixed. We've seen stupid tactics in Trek movies before; they would be dramatically (if not technically) forgivable if the story was there.

Here is a story which is potentially PERFECT for a moral quandary. The Ba'ku are no angels. They discovered the fountain of youth, they had space travel, and they decided to hoard it to themselves. They are fundamentally self-absorbed and callous to the suffering of the galaxy outside their little pocket of social and racial conformity. They even exiled some of their own children.

But in the original story, there is simply no moral doubt whatsoever in Picard's mind, or in the minds of any of his people. An opportunity for some actual drama thrown in the garbage, in favour of a superficial "good vs evil" polarization of the scenario.

Pfft, I would've kicked both the Son'a and the B'aku out of the sector, annexed it into the federation and exploited the particles or whatever that were in that planet. Seriously, who was the crackmonkey that rationalized that the lives of what, like 100 or so people outweighted the lives of millions, even billions of people?

Aya wrote:Pfft, I would've kicked both the Son'a and the B'aku out of the sector, annexed it into the federation and exploited the particles or whatever that were in that planet. Seriously, who was the crackmonkey that rationalized that the lives of what, like 100 or so people outweighted the lives of millions, even billions of people?

Hell, that's exactly what the Federation was planning to do until Picard fucked it all up!

Which goes to show you that the French have no sense at all.

Alyeska...I like it, it gives the movie more action and the Feds some ground weaponry. (something which is never really explored) And it gives Riker some decent tactics....which is severly lacking, IMHO.

The major thing that needed fixed was the whole joystick thing that was embarassing.

Darth Pounder wrote:The major thing that needed fixed was the whole joystick thing that was embarassing.

Not this again!
That WAS an improvement! The joystick allows for a greater control of the ship than those silly touchpads. No wonder Riker used it to manually control the ship, to collect the tetryon gas.

Take a look at Wong's Insurrection analisys, he makes mention of this.

You know, I respect Mike as much as the next guy, and I think he's right as much as anyone, but that does not make his thoughts the last word in a debate.

Howedar wrote:You know, I respect Mike as much as the next guy, and I think he's right as much as anyone, but that does not make his thoughts the last word in a debate.

I agree, however in this particular instance I think he is correct. In fact, I had come to the same conclusion just after having seen the movie for the first time.

Hell, I totally agree on the joystick issue. I just don't like the citing of Mike's comments as high and mightly fact.

Howedar wrote:Hell, I totally agree on the joystick issue. I just don't like the citing of Mike's comments as high and mightly fact.

I only put Mike's comment as reference.
I respect him, but I don't consider him some divinity who is always right.

You don't?

BURN THE HERETIC!

HemlockGrey wrote:You don't?

BURN THE HERETIC!

Now heres a Wongite you can set your watch to. Not that I have any problem with that.

Maybe it would have been better for Picard's efforts to FAIL. Then maybe he resigns in utter disgust.

Then it sets up a better plot for nemsis where the ROmulans and Federation are actually fighting a war and a Romulan Commander (Shinzon) is on some uber ship (better designed) is making mincemeat of Federation vessels (include VOyager ith CAPTAIN Janeway on board).

Picard comes out of retirement to lead the fleet, the Enterprise and the USS Titan work in Tandem much like the Enterprise A and Excelsior back in STVI.

Do that and utilize decent tactics and maybe, just maybe, Star Trek coulda been saved. They didn't and now even trekkies are treating it like an unwanted relative.

Darth Wong wrote:I think the basic plot needs to be fixed. We've seen stupid tactics in Trek movies before; they would be dramatically (if not technically) forgivable if the story was there.

Here is a story which is potentially PERFECT for a moral quandary. The Ba'ku are no angels. They discovered the fountain of youth, they had space travel, and they decided to hoard it to themselves. They are fundamentally self-absorbed and callous to the suffering of the galaxy outside their little pocket of social and racial conformity. They even exiled some of their own children.

But in the original story, there is simply no moral doubt whatsoever in Picard's mind, or in the minds of any of his people. An opportunity for some actual drama thrown in the garbage, in favour of a superficial "good vs evil" polarization of the scenario.

I don't think you can fix a train-wreck, and that's what Insurrection was. But let's see here...

The conditions set up in the movie undermines what should be the main plot, theoretically. After all, the Enteprise crew began to experience the healing and regenerative effects of the technobabble radiation from far orbit. This is in fact used to set up that entire plot-point. But if this is the case, then the radiation is not location-specific on the planet. Which means that the Son'A could have set up their colonies anywhere beneath the rings to bathe in the technobabble radiation, as could have been done with any Federation facilities. And with the Bak'u population numbering what, 600, and with no technology, they really couldn't say "boo" about it. But there also would not really have been any need to displace their settlement in the first place.

If the source of the radiation is not location-specific, which is what the movie depicts, then the entire plot is undermined. The Son'A have no real reason to displace the Bak'u, the Federation has no real interest in aiding the Son'A to do so, and there is no reason for the conflict. One of the many reasons why this was a fundamentally stupid movie. I really do think the writers simply lost track of the plot they were crafting.

This movie works only if the Bak'u village is the point-specific source of the technobabble regenerating radiations. It would also have been interesting if the very object everybody is fighting over is destroyed (in this case, sealed off by incidental fire which blocks the technobabble radiation).

As for Picard, well, the man is full of himself, isn't he?

Patrick Degan wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:I think the basic plot needs to be fixed. We've seen stupid tactics in Trek movies before; they would be dramatically (if not technically) forgivable if the story was there.

Here is a story which is potentially PERFECT for a moral quandary. The Ba'ku are no angels. They discovered the fountain of youth, they had space travel, and they decided to hoard it to themselves. They are fundamentally self-absorbed and callous to the suffering of the galaxy outside their little pocket of social and racial conformity. They even exiled some of their own children.

But in the original story, there is simply no moral doubt whatsoever in Picard's mind, or in the minds of any of his people. An opportunity for some actual drama thrown in the garbage, in favour of a superficial "good vs evil" polarization of the scenario.

I don't think you can fix a train-wreck, and that's what Insurrection was. But let's see here...

The conditions set up in the movie undermines what should be the main plot, theoretically. After all, the Enteprise crew began to experience the healing and regenerative effects of the technobabble radiation from far orbit. This is in fact used to set up that entire plot-point. But if this is the case, then the radiation is not location-specific on the planet. Which means that the Son'A could have set up their colonies anywhere beneath the rings to bathe in the technobabble radiation, as could have been done with any Federation facilities. And with the Bak'u population numbering what, 600, and with no technology, they really couldn't say "boo" about it. But there also would not really have been any need to displace their settlement in the first place.

If the source of the radiation is not location-specific, which is what the movie depicts, then the entire plot is undermined. The Son'A have no real reason to displace the Bak'u, the Federation has no real interest in aiding the Son'A to do so, and there is no reason for the conflict. One of the many reasons why this was a fundamentally stupid movie. I really do think the writers simply lost track of the plot they were crafting.

This movie works only if the Bak'u village is the point-specific source of the technobabble regenerating radiations. It would also have been interesting if the very object everybody is fighting over is destroyed (in this case, sealed off by incidental fire which blocks the technobabble radiation).

As for Picard, well, the man is full of himself, isn't he?

Actually Ruoffa, the lead Sona wanted to KILL the Baku and permanetly harvest the affects of the rings from the planet. That is the difference. He probably would have given the collected rings to the Federation while he probably would have kept the "secret" of the Nebula to himself.

Warspite wrote:

Darth Pounder wrote:The major thing that needed fixed was the whole joystick thing that was embarassing.

Not this again!
That WAS an improvement! The joystick allows for a greater control of the ship than those silly touchpads. No wonder Riker used it to manually control the ship, to collect the tetryon gas.

Take a look at Wong's Insurrection analisys, he makes mention of this.

My point about it is if it was so fecking good why weren't they using a 'stick in the 1st place?

Darth Pounder wrote:

Warspite wrote:

Darth Pounder wrote:The major thing that needed fixed was the whole joystick thing that was embarassing.

Not this again!
That WAS an improvement! The joystick allows for a greater control of the ship than those silly touchpads. No wonder Riker used it to manually control the ship, to collect the tetryon gas.

Take a look at Wong's Insurrection analisys, he makes mention of this.

My point about it is if it was so fecking good why weren't they using a 'stick in the 1st place?

For normal steering or what?

For everything! Since the future is so advanced they won't be needing joysticks, why have them, right?

Well, at least it could be situated in a less conspicuous area, I mean, we've seen the captain's, number one and counsellor's seat a million times, and there was never a clue on one of those things being there, under the floor.
If it where located, say, next to the tactical officer's station, or in between the navigator and helm, it wouldn't be so easily spotted, and would fit more nicely. Anyway, they should have used it in Nemesis.

EDIT: More importantly, it would be essential for maneuvering, the joystick allows a better control needed to maneuvre a zillion ton ship in confined spaces, than using touchpads.

Patrick Degan wrote:

If the source of the radiation is not location-specific, which is what the movie depicts, then the entire plot is undermined. The Son'A have no real reason to displace the Bak'u, the Federation has no real interest in aiding the Son'A to do so, and there is no reason for the conflict. One of the many reasons why this was a fundamentally stupid movie. I really do think the writers simply lost track of the plot they were crafting.

I thought the Son'a were too far gone to recover without condensing the radiation with their technobable-which was at least their cover story for destroying the village and so on...

I'd scrap the story and start over.

But there are ways to improve the story so it could be at least on a similar level as Generations. I'll post them later.

Star Wreck: Indigestions is a lost cause.