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And it was quite enjoyable, if suffering from a few plot holes/flaws.

The clone idea could have worked, if they'd given us more confrontation between Shinzon and Picard, more of Shinzon making Picard question who he was more. There were also chances to get Dr Crusher involved (she has been woefully underused in the films) that were overlooked, and the whole angle of Shinzon hating the Romulans, and the Romulans dislike/distrust of him was never played up like it should have been.

What happened with Data? His sacrifice was pointless- and even then, it was mishandled. A moment or two saying goodbye with Geordi, and a longer, more involved eulogy would have been appreciated. Still, if you ask me, there would have been much more drama, more emotional value to having Picard fire the shot that killed the Scimitar.

The battle scene was excellent. I don't recall the Enterprise-E being shot up that badly before, and it's clear that as far as run-of-the-mill Trek ships go, the Scimitar is the most powerful. It could probably go one on one with any other Trek ship (save of course, for the super-races like the Borg and Voth).

I liked the ramming scene, though- Particularly when we got to see both ships hanging there, stuck together.

In all, 7/10, some enjoyable moments, flickers of potential, but a lot of wasted opportunities.

You know... Had Picard sacraficed himself we would have seen Riker probably take command of the Enterprise while Data got the Titan instead. Interesting plot idea.

Alyeska wrote:You know... Had Picard sacraficed himself we would have seen Riker probably take command of the Enterprise while Data got the Titan instead. Interesting plot idea.

Actually, in cases like that I think that Data would have wound up commanding the E-E, with Riker on the Titan. Didn't he already have his transfer orders?

Did you notice the HUGE Prime Directive violation?

Sothis wrote:What happened with Data? His sacrifice was pointless- and even then, it was mishandled. A moment or two saying goodbye with Geordi, and a longer, more involved eulogy would have been appreciated.

What do you mean his sacrifice was pointless? He did save the crew of the Enterprise.
Personaly I quite liked the fact that there was no long over emotional goodbye or eulogy for Data, they always bug me. I mean a very few people get to say goodbye to their loved ones in real life, particulary soldiers that die in combat. One of the most annoying brainbugs in Hollywood is that the directors/writers Ect. always feel that they must build some special drama prior to someone dying, thats how we ended up with the rather strange notion that soldier who mentiones he's parents/girlfriend/wife/younger siblings to someone is quarenteed to die shortly there after. Data died, I don't think that more needed to be said to convey that point.
C'est la vie, il finit dans la mort.

Superman wrote:Did you notice the HUGE Prime Directive violation?

You are talking about the planet at the beginning of the movie, right?
Well they did go there to recover advanced technology that could have lead to "cultural contamination" had the locals discovered it. So the original mission was justifiable and what happened after they were discovered and attacked by the locals was unfortunate and perhaps the result of carelessness on part of the crew, but I don't really think that it was that bad.

Sir Sirius wrote:

Sothis wrote:What happened with Data? His sacrifice was pointless- and even then, it was mishandled. A moment or two saying goodbye with Geordi, and a longer, more involved eulogy would have been appreciated.

What do you mean his sacrifice was pointless? He did save the crew of the Enterprise.
quote]

What I mean is, from a dramatic perspective, from a story perspective, it would have been far more dramatic to have Picard be the one to pull the trigger.

Sothis wrote:What I mean is, from a dramatic perspective, from a story perspective, it would have been far more dramatic to have Picard be the one to pull the trigger.

Well, from a practical standpoint, Picard should have turned the thing off instead of sitting there LIKE A LUMP!

It was his complete inability to act that killed Data, and I thought that was seriously weak.

Sothis wrote:

Sir Sirius wrote:

Sothis wrote:What happened with Data? His sacrifice was pointless- and even then, it was mishandled. A moment or two saying goodbye with Geordi, and a longer, more involved eulogy would have been appreciated.

What do you mean his sacrifice was pointless? He did save the crew of the Enterprise.

What I mean is, from a dramatic perspective, from a story perspective, it would have been far more dramatic to have Picard be the one to pull the trigger.

Ah, but they (B&B) couldn't resurect Picard as easily as they can Data should they ever wish to (they did download Data's memorys in to the other android in the beginning of the movie).

My understanding is that the actor who plays Data said he didn't want to do any more Star Treks, that he was getting too old to pass as an immortal android, hence they had to kill off Data.

Kerneth wrote:My understanding is that the actor who plays Data said he didn't want to do any more Star Treks, that he was getting too old to pass as an immortal android, hence they had to kill off Data.

Correct.

Look at it this way...

Spock dies & we all feel a loss...

The Enterprise - Nil dies & we all feel a loss...

Data dies & we couldn't give a shit...

Its a sign of the times that the writing & directing was so ineffectual as to make us not care about Data...

DocHorror wrote:Data dies & I couldn't give a shit...

Just a minor correction. A great many of us do care because they did the Data character very well.

Alyeska wrote:

DocHorror wrote:Data dies & I couldn't give a shit...

Just a minor correction. A great many of us do care because they did the Data character very well.

I'm sorry that he died, as he was by far my favorite TNG character, but I was also very disappoined with the manner of his death. I thought that Data, who carried the series at times, should have gotten better.

Master of Ossus wrote:

I'm sorry that he died, as he was by far my favorite TNG character, but I was also very disappoined with the manner of his death. I thought that Data, who carried the series at times, should have gotten better.

Same here, he made TNG for me and I felt his loss. He really deserved better. Much better.

Damn right, Data's loss was a blow, but it shouldn't have been cheapened by the possible "Data Jr".

IG-88E wrote:Damn right, Data's loss was a blow, but it shouldn't have been cheapened by the possible "Data Jr".

Spiner doesn't wany to play the part anymore. So this is unlikely.

Alyeska wrote:

IG-88E wrote:Damn right, Data's loss was a blow, but it shouldn't have been cheapened by the possible "Data Jr".

Spiner doesn't wany to play the part anymore. So this is unlikely.

I know, but it still cheapen's Data's loss by having a carbon copy for him.

I agree. Data was TNG in my eyes, but they could've done it better.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Sothis wrote:What I mean is, from a dramatic perspective, from a story perspective, it would have been far more dramatic to have Picard be the one to pull the trigger.

Well, from a practical standpoint, Picard should have turned the thing off instead of sitting there LIKE A LUMP!

It was his complete inability to act that killed Data, and I thought that was seriously weak.

How the fuck was he supposed to just turn it off? Dumbfuck.

He was in shock at having just impaled his son on a piece of pipe, or whatever that was.

And yeah, he couldn't "turn it off", it had to be shot with a phaser evidently...else Data would've just "turned it off" and said "Beam me and Baldy back guys".

When I saw the movie with my sister, she was surprised that Picard didn't simply tell the computer to deactivate the thalaron generator. Since he was the same person as Shinzon, the computer might have thought he could tell it what to do. I, personally, don't think that would have worked. Picard doesn't sound that much like Shinzon. You'd need someone like Data to pull off a trick like that. Even then a simple password would defeat it.

Ive said this before but I had an idea that coulda maybe spared Nemesis and Insurrection.

STI plays out exactly as it did except that Picard fails and the Federation and Son'a harvest the metaphasic particles. Picard resigns in disgust and retires to France.

A few years later during Nemesis the Federation and Romulans go to War*. at first things seem even until a mysterious begins appearing at the front lines and begins annhilating Federation ships with a combination of overwhelming firepower and superior tactics.

Riker, the new captain of the E-E personally travels to France. "Jean Luc, the federation needs you but more importantly your crew needs you." Picard is given a temporary prmotion to Admiral (which is better than giving it to Lameway)

Once on the front lines Picard takes command of a small task force, including a ship which is captained by Data (the Titan maybe) with LaForge as his second in command.

Picard's re entry to Starfleet provides a great morale boost and the Federation ships begin winning. Picard first encounters this new enemy in battle and it is a standstill, with Picard and his enemy fighting move for move.

It is at this time Picard's enemy sends an audio transmission, the voice is toggled so it is indecipherable, "Until we meet Again Jean Luc, I knew this day would come." Maybe a Herman Melville quote soon after.

Picard is abducted from the Enterprise in what we see as the first ever great ST Fighter battle. A Romulan shuttle abducts Picard and Romulan Scorpions engage SF Peregrines with Riker personally taking command of the squadron, thus proving his piloting skills. The Scorpions are routed, but the Shuttle escapes.

Itis then that Picard is first introduced to Shinzon, who is still a clone of Picard but this time he is played by Patrick Stewart. He also has the signature Romulan ears and iit is revealed that he was cloned and then his DNA altered so he would not be human anymore. Shinzon is obsesse with killing Picard because it is a constant reminder he is a clone. Shinzon takes him before the Romulan Praetor and Picard is tried before the ROmulan Senate.

During the trial there is a massive Federation attack on ROmulus using cloaking technology. The Federation abandons the treaty seeing as how they were alreayd at war and the Romulans do not adequately prepare. A klingon leet led by Ambassador Worf also enters the fray, citing a duty to his Captain and to the Allies of the Empire.

There is a great battle and Picard returns to the Enterprise, Shinzon boards the Scimitar and the two ships fight a grand battle. Ultimately the Enterprise is defeated, dead in space while the battle rages on.

Starfleet however, gains the hand when Data's ship blindsides the distracted and beaten down Scimitar and disable it. Picard directs the ships from his chair and the Federation wins, but not before the Praetor, on board a D'Deridex targets the Enterprise E and prepares to kill Picard in revenge.

Shinzon however, orders his crew to ram the Praetors ship and evacuate, claiming "He alone shall bear the burden of sacrifice." Picard tells him to stop but Shinzon says "I have to save you, because I don't want to die like that." He fianlly utters "Vive La France or another Melville quote and rams the PRaetors ship destroying both ships.

At the end of it all Picard truly resigns, but this time knowing that he has done some good and that he can leave a legacy of peace...

*We could also include the Klingons in the initial conflict by having an attack by the Romulans be an instigating factor. Also, the Klingons could supply the cloaking technology to the Federation more rapidly than they could actually build and implement it.

IG-88E wrote:I know, but it still cheapen's Data's loss by having a carbon copy for him.

Not just a carbon copy of him, but a terminally retarded carbon copy of him that didn't have any of the humanity that Data had struggled for during hte entire run of TNG and didn't have the capacity to better himself.

Data dies & I couldn't give a shit...


Just a minor correction. A great many of us do care because they did the Data character very well.

Ah, sorry, a hasty generalisation on my part...

I am fond of Data, though I believe sheer bad writing has numbed me too feeling any sympathy for a Non-TOS character...

There was a minor point in Nemesis that irked me. I didn't like how they just had Worf suddenly back on the Enterprise. Not exactly something a Federation Ambassador to the Klingon empire does. In First Contact and Insurrection they had Security Chief Daniels. In Nemesis he just suddenly disapears. Would have been nice if they had continued his character and used HIM rather then Worf and Riker to lead the assault against the Remans.