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Someone keeps telling me that because at the end of Voy they assimilated Future Janeway they have transphasic torpedo technology. They say that this was not destroyed by the virus that killed most of the borg because of the borg sphere that escaped.
What do you say?

Who cares. The Borg are too stupid to utilize this tech effectivley, ie-Even if they do get it, they'll send one ship over to Earth, do some fantasicly stupid thing (FCs time travel incident), screw that up, lose a Queen, and run back to Borg space and lick their "wounds." Repeat.

Maybe I should not say this, because it might make this get moved.
Someone's arguing with me that the borg will kill an ISD because they have the torpedoes which go through anything. I'm trying to show them they don't.

Seggybop wrote:Maybe I should not say this, because it might make this get moved.
Someone's arguing with me that the borg will kill an ISD because they have the torpedoes which go through anything. I'm trying to show them they don't.

OMG.
Thats the exact argument my friend uses... He's gone on to say that one Defiant class can take on 5 Death Stars, because the Borg were vulnerable to it...

Do the Borg still exist as a threat after "Endgame," or did Janeway's little ruse kill them all?

I am sure that the Borg do exist. They killed the Queen in STFC and they came back. They are probably weakened, but not gone.

Transpechic phase torpedo's by all accounts are just another one shot superweapon that relys on ST boneheaded Strobe light shielding system

Transphacis basicly when it boils down to it, is a slightly SMALLER Warhead(Comparing explosion sizes) but if you know the shield frequency of your enemy it flys clear through them somonehow(Onboard equipment probably)

Mr Bean wrote:Transpechic phase torpedo's by all accounts are just another one shot superweapon that relys on ST boneheaded Strobe light shielding system

[/i]

Gee can you point me to the source which explains this and states this to be the case?

Transphacis basicly when it boils down to it, is a slightly SMALLER Warhead(Comparing explosion sizes)

To what? The explosions when they impacted the Transwarp hubs created a massive shockwave that destroyed the Transwarp hub and blasted the network. They are the only external explosions we ever see and they were preaty dang BIG for some of (IIRC its been a while since I've watched endgame) powerful BOrg shields in existence, monitored by the Queen herself...

but if you know the shield frequency of your enemy it flys clear through them somonehow(Onboard equipment probably)

And all of this is bassed upon?
You DON'T know the shield frequency of the enemy in Star Trek by scaning them. Its clear you CAN'T tell teh frequency from the outside viewpoint. You always have had to have someone on the inside (Geordi's visor, the evil equinox EMH, the Datapad Tuvok found in 'rise' e.t.c.) to get you the frequencies. Let alone Borg shields.

To be frank, I think you're simply speculating wildly. Or have gotten the informatino from someone who did. ALL we know about Transphasic weapons is that they appear to pass through Borg defences and hulls without pausing, then make said ships go BOOM.

Gee can you point me to the source which explains this and states this to be the case?

Simple anayalis when watching the Epsioded of which we are talking about plus screen-cap monitoring and the fact that the Borg according to the Borg managed(AGIAN) to Adapt to them, if they where a Brute Force application unless you want to claim Deus Ex Machiania then the Borg simply can't adapt till they are no longer effective as I belive it was Seven(Or Janeway? Been awhile) Indicated

Second of all normaly some shield flaring is visable when Torps strike things and these did not seem to have that, it looked just like it was shooting strait through Borg Shielding as we agreed at the time of that thread

To what? The explosions when they impacted the Transwarp hubs created a massive shockwave that destroyed the Transwarp hub and blasted the network. They are the only external explosions we ever see and they were preaty dang BIG for some of (IIRC its been a while since I've watched endgame) powerful BOrg shields in existence, monitored by the Queen herself...

A one Megaton Nuclear Warhead of Today Creates a pretty big explosion and could Trash your avarage UNSHIELDED Star Fleet Ship but then the key that makes Cubes so strong is their ability for their shields to compesate for high amounts of damage, If you devople a weapon that bypasses shields its gonna look pretty dang powerful thanks to the lack of armoring on your targets

And same here it HAS been awhile since I watched Endgame myself(I have much better written retintion rate than I do visual, why I remeber the thread and not-so-much the Epsodie itself)

You DON'T know the shield frequency of the enemy in Star Trek by scaning them. Its clear you CAN'T tell teh frequency from the outside viewpoint. You always have had to have someone on the inside (Geordi's visor, the evil equinox EMH, the Datapad Tuvok found in 'rise' e.t.c.) to get you the frequencies. Let alone Borg shields.

Then they have finaly overcome that particular barrrier and now ships can be much more deadly as a result, The only thing that did not make shields absoulty useless aginst an intellgent enemy is the fact you don't know the Freq, Know that and your gonna be able to rip them apart

To be frank, I think you're simply speculating wildly. Or have gotten the informatino from someone who did. ALL we know about Transphasic weapons is that they appear to pass through Borg defences and hulls without pausing, then make said ships go BOOM.

Considering the Hull Intergity of Cubes is rougly analgoious to carbord(Not that much of an exgeration) Passing through Hull's is not brand new, Shooting through shielding IS as you indicate it PASSED through the Borg's Defenses

Seggybop wrote:Someone keeps telling me that because at the end of Voy they assimilated Future Janeway they have transphasic torpedo technology. They say that this was not destroyed by the virus that killed most of the borg because of the borg sphere that escaped.
What do you say?

I say he needs to show that Janeway is an engineer and would know the schematics of and how to build a TT. Because if she only knows they work, and now how to make them or how they work, the borg got nothing.

Transphasic topr if they do work as Mr Bean has puzzled through may be the reason WHY they developed the Batmobile armor

Seggybop wrote:Someone keeps telling me that because at the end of Voy they assimilated Future Janeway they have transphasic torpedo technology. They say that this was not destroyed by the virus that killed most of the borg because of the borg sphere that escaped.
What do you say?

Did Janeway develop that technology? IIRC no she did not, thus the borg wouldn't have that tech.

Seggybop wrote:Someone keeps telling me that because at the end of Voy they assimilated Future Janeway they have transphasic torpedo technology. They say that this was not destroyed by the virus that killed most of the borg because of the borg sphere that escaped.
What do you say?

Hmm...I don't know that the Borg ever assimilated those torpedoes.
The Queen said they'd assimilated the *armor technology*.
There's no indication that they had those torpedoes beside
the fact that the sphere wasn't killed by them.

As for the Borg, to infect the entire Collective with a virus, you
have to upload it into the "Central Plexus" on a Borg ship or
installation. That's how Janewad and co. managed to cause
all of those Borg to become individuals again during "Unimatrix
Zero," even though they were spread throughout the galaxy.

They didn't do that when Janeway infected the Queen in "Endgame,"
and all of the destruction we saw could be explained by the "First Contact" clause: kill the Queen, and the drones around her die. But it did destroy the "Primary Unicomplex," and one of their hubs was taken out, so maybe it did constitute a "crippling blow" as Janeway said several times.

I hate that bitch.

seanrobertson wrote:As for the Borg, to infect the entire Collective with a virus, you have to upload it into the "Central Plexus" on a Borg ship or installation. That's how Janewad and co. managed to cause all of those Borg to become individuals again during "Unimatrix Zero," even though they were spread throughout the galaxy.

Since the Queen has access to this Central Plexus, this goes without saying. It's a root exploit.

As for the transphasic torpedoes, we saw them explode against the surface of a Borg cube with no more effect than Picard's torpedoes in "Q Who", and then the cube blew up. They look like a specialized anti-Borg device to me, and there's no reason to imagine they have any more raw power than regular torps.

Seggybop wrote:Someone keeps telling me that because at the end of Voy they assimilated Future Janeway they have transphasic torpedo technology. They say that this was not destroyed by the virus that killed most of the borg because of the borg sphere that escaped.
What do you say?

You talking about the "discussion" at infoceptor.com? Should I post Firefly's criticisms of Mike's asteroid/ISD energy calcs?

As far as the Transphasics not causing a shield flare, do the Borg even really use shield tech? As far as I can remember all weapons have impacted directly on the hull. Like in First Contact, all the torps hit the cube, they just weren't doing enough damage fast enough, or something like that. So as far as Transphasics go, IMHO it doesn't mean that they have adapted to Borg shields when they never seem to use them in the first place. I could easily be wrong though.

As far as the Transphasics not causing a shield flare, do the Borg even really use shield tech?

Yes they do, there are quite a few Shield Flares in the latter half of Q-Who if I recall and every other Borg Epsoided

Darth Wong wrote: Since the Queen has access to this Central Plexus, this goes without saying. It's a root exploit.

As for the transphasic torpedoes, we saw them explode against the surface of a Borg cube with no more effect than Picard's torpedoes in "Q Who", and then the cube blew up. They look like a specialized anti-Borg device to me, and there's no reason to imagine they have any more raw power than regular torps.

I tend to agree. Their explosive effect on impact actually seemed much smaller than any photorp used against them. It's almost as if the cube decided to do an instant self-destruct.

Before the very end of the episode, there is some indication that they're more effective against certain Borg targets than others. We know they could handle cubes easily, but the hub's shielding was apparently strong enough to prevent fatal damage, hence old Janewad's plan to fuck over the Queen (who's said to control the hub's shields herself).

For awhile that lead me to believe it was a matter of yield, since we don't really have a precedent for radically different Borg shielding technologies.
Simply put, I figured the torpedoes were powerful enough to blow away cube-level shields altogether, but they couldn't do critical damage to a "subspace manifold," whatever that is, until the shields to those things were down.

But that ignores something rather crucial: the battle with the Borg sphere. I'm pretty sure VGR shot it with the torpedoes before the sphere pulled her inside. And the sphere was larger than the one in FC--it'd pretty much have to be to give VGR that much clearance--but it was not even close to a cube's size.

Thus, we have [what should be] a less powerful ship stopping several of these torpedoes without much difficulty. The idea of super yield goes out the window faster than Janewad can chain-smoke her way through a tobacco field...I simply see no way at all for the sphere to "adapt" if the
devices simply overwhelmed bigger, tougher cubes' shields with sheer
energy.

I suppose it's possible the torpedoes have a *somewhat* greater yield
than a standard photon torpedo, if we grant the assumption that they penetrate a ship's hull before going off. It did take around 15-20 photon torpedoes, detonated inside the cube in "FC," to bring it down, but decentralized systems or not it's far from an inert target. That's the only real comparison I can think to draw, and it's invalid. So we have no way to know if they're more potent at all; and judging by their lack of use in "Nemesis," no big spoiler I think , I'm compelled to think they're a one-trick pony, and inferior overall to quantum torpedoes to boot.

apocolypse wrote:As far as the Transphasics not causing a shield flare, do the Borg even really use shield tech? As far as I can remember all weapons have impacted directly on the hull. Like in First Contact, all the torps hit the cube, they just weren't doing enough damage fast enough, or something like that. So as far as Transphasics go, IMHO it doesn't mean that they have adapted to Borg shields when they never seem to use them in the first place. I could easily be wrong though.

Shields? Yes and [sorta] no. In their first couple of appearances,
I don't recall seeing shields activate. All we ever really hear is a blurb about their "electromagnetic field," but judging by the cube's ability to handle that deflector dish shot, they had to have some sort of shields.

By "Descent," we saw shield effects, and we both see and hear about Borg shields a good bit during VGR. I can remember three specific instances of one or the other:

In "Scorpion," a cube is nailed by a bioship's blast, and Torres says, "The Borg shields are weakening..."

When Torres, Janewad, and Tuvok were drones in "Unimatrix Zero pt. II," Torres dropped a tactical cube's dorsal shields to help VGR and a little sphere do more damage. When VGR and the sphere shot at the cube, at least up 'til that point, we saw some shield FX.

And in "Endgame," we're told something about the transwarp hub's shields as I mentioned in that last post.

Starfleet Command III treats Borg ships as if they have no shields, just some kind of regenerative armor, though. (Pretty good game. I wish it was about ten times longer...the graphics and controls are really sweet, but the campaigns are way too easy. The premise is a bit dull, too.)

Actually I just watched Q Who and there were no flares, but I also remembered some episode of Voyager where the Borg queen was saying something about "triaxilating the shield harmonics" or some incredibly huge technobabble thing, so I stand corrected.

Darth Servo wrote:

Seggybop wrote:Someone keeps telling me that because at the end of Voy they assimilated Future Janeway they have transphasic torpedo technology. They say that this was not destroyed by the virus that killed most of the borg because of the borg sphere that escaped.
What do you say?

You talking about the "discussion" at infoceptor.com? Should I post Firefly's criticisms of Mike's asteroid/ISD energy calcs?

Yes, I see you saw... please do so...

Just because Transphasic torpedoes might have been designed to fight the Borg doesn't mean they won't be effective against non-Borg targets. The Defiant was built with anti Borg weapons, both the PPCs and Q-Torps. They both worked out quite well against non-Borg targets.

Alyeska wrote:Just because Transphasic torpedoes might have been designed to fight the Borg doesn't mean they won't be effective against non-Borg targets. The Defiant was built with anti Borg weapons, both the PPCs and Q-Torps. They both worked out quite well against non-Borg targets.

... and were not noticeeably more effective against the Borg cube in STFC than regular phasers or photorps. The transphasic torpedoes are obviously a "trick"; the fact that they could fabricate them on Voyager proves this. The ability to pack far more power into the same casing would require more profound advancements, whereas a "trick" could be quickly deployed on an older ship.

I was going to make a thread about this in the SW vs ST Forum, but since there already is one here, I'll just ask the question here (seeing as how Seggybop posted it in relation to the Infoceptor thread):
Would Transphasic Torpedoes work against Imperial ships (IOW bypass/ignore them completely)? If not, why?