StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I couldn't help but notice a shift in their capabilities over time. As Stravo mentions, they're generally portrayed as some unstoppable tide of darkness that sweeps all before it.
In Hippocratic Oath they do a 'special forces' act when searching Bashir's runabout, at least hinting that they were supposed to be well-trained. In The Ship, they manage to actually score hits while running and zig-zagging. Rocks and Shoals offers a good view of their marksmanship, let down only by drug withdrawal.
The problems seen in The Siege of Ar-558 can be attributed to two factors: equipment and quality. This being Star Trek, the Jem-Hadar lack any kind of support weapon. Even an RPG or grenades would have helped in that particular scenario. With regard to quality, it must be remembered that the Dominion had taken to churning out fresh Jem-Hadar on-site. The 'Alphas' would not have the kind of advanced training the 'Gammas' would have recieved, due to time constraints. The Alpha superiority complex seen in One Little Ship is both ironic and a big letdown, in that Alphas were not only less capable than Gammas, but would not even take advice from Gammas because of their supposed superiority (the Alphas are described as having been specifically designed for fighting in the Alpha Quadrant, but the writers did not bother to go into precisely what this entailed. They may well have been designed for greater aggression to make up for the lack of training).
I agree with Stravo, the Jem-Hadar are a force to be reckoned with.

It sounds like the Jem'Hadar are treated as child soldiers. Unfortunately for the Founders, the Jem'Hadar don't look like children, so their presence wouldn't shock soldiers from cultures with taboos against killing children.

Master of Cards wrote:gets out the M-16

I've fired the M16. It's a piece of shit-- it jams too easily, and in battle, a jammed weapon is a serious liability. Give me the AK-47 any day-- I know its ergonomics is inferior to the M16's, but it will keep firing through abuse that would transform the M16 into an oversized paperweight.

I'd say that AR-558 is something of an outlier for the Jem'Hadar, at least inside the Trek Universe, in some ways.

Most of the time we've seen the Jem'Hadar they've been, compared to the rest of the Trek Races, generally much more competent, at least insomuch as they are given flexability by the higher ups to be.

When they boarded DS9 at the end of season 5, they did so at least with a degree of professionalism, fanning out from the airlocks with weapons up, following where they looked, dito when they hit Ops, generally with one Jem'Hadar yanking the door open so another, with the weapon already up could rapidly step through, sweeping the area for hostiles.

In the episode where Sisko and co were shot down with a bunch of Jem'hadar on the planet, they showed at least some degree of skill, despite the fact that they were all going through bad reactions to withdrawl from the white, taking the high ground above the away team and keeping them completly pinned down when they opened up. Granted they did do a suicidal charge at the end of the episode, but the First knew he was walking into a trap but was under orders from the Vorta (and they still managed to tag, on the run, one of the redshirts some distance away in cover) to do so, most of their fire also landed rather close to the Starfleet positions.

In What you Leave Behind, they captured Kira, Garak and Damar rather easily by having enough sense to flashbang the room they were hiding in, THEN storm it, unlike 99% of Trek races.

In 'The Ship' they assaulted the away team agressivly and quickly, not taking a single loss or injury, though manging to take out one or two of the redshirts IIRC, with some elements covering the advance of others.

And they captured the Defiant on several occasions. Most of the time giving it back at the orders of the Founders, one time loosing it again because the new 'Alpha Quadrent' Jem'hadar completly ignored the Gamma Quadrent Jem'Hadar who kept pointing out Sisko and Co were working to retake the ship from the get go.

Seige of AR-558 is really quite opposed to most every other time we've seen them 'on the ground' assaulting an alert group of people, where they normaly advance firing when they have no viable cover, or advance while being covered by other Jem'Hadar if they do have cover to approach with.

They are not perfect, far from it, but they are not Klingon's...most of the time.

Stravo wrote:My problem with the premise is that the Jem'Hedar were built up as this scary elite force that everyone in the Gamma Quadrant feared. "Watch out for the Jem'Hedar, they'll fuck you up." and even Starfleet bought into this line of thinking in regard to the Jem'Hedar. While it might all be propaganda and smoke on the Founders' side there has to be a reason why they were feared for their prowess in the Gamma quadrant and not their numbers.

I think it's a good case of minimal competence going a long way. Star Trek doesn't exactly abound with a lot of really capable ground forces so the Jem'Hadar will stand out with out too much effort. The Jem'Hadar got to be so fear merely by being the top of an otherwise unimpressive heap and no one really stopped to analyze things (or quite possibly didn't have the capability to realize it). They simply knew the Jem'Hadar had kicked ass and took names and that was the part they paid attention to.

To make a real world analogy, look at how hyped the Israeli military is and look at how poorly they typically perform. Their spectacular achievements suddenly become a lot less impressive when you realize how truly sorry the shape of their opponents.

Adding to the fear is the willingness of the Dominion to engage in absolutely brutal actions against defenceless opponents. Endless legions of suicidally loyal troops equipped with high tech weapons and willing to commit any atrocity if their masters command are pretty scary. They will kill civilians door to door or by orbital bombardment if so ordered or unleash bioweapons that will continue to kill generations later.

If you're a Gamma Quadrant civilization, that's damn scary. You probably wouldn't look beyond their terrifying reputation to realize they aren't that good as soldiers.

Does anyone recall the Jem Hadar using their predator-like personal cloaking any episode besides the one in which they are introduced? That alone makes them formidable.

The way I see them is they are a terror weapon. In the Dominion, if you fuck around the Jem Hadar will get you. You might not see them coming, but even if you kill one they will keep on coming and they will never stop. In hand-to-hand they're scary, and they live to kill without self-preservation. The Dominion seems to operate on intimidation and terror, like the planet they infected with the 'quickening' virus. I imagine they hadn't had to fight an equal enemy in a long time, and if the Federation had been an adjacent empire instead of being accessible only through one point, the Feds would have been overwhelmed.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Does anyone recall the Jem Hadar using their predator-like personal cloaking any episode besides the one in which they are introduced? That alone makes them formidable.

Uh they use them plenty of times. I can think of five or six episodes off the top of my head. Usually with scouts or pickets appearing right next to the good guys with weapons leveled.

Split off, because of discussion not because of necroing moron who can't read the damn rules.

Did they ever fire their weapons while cloaked, because I can't think of one instance where they did. And if not, was there a specific reason given why couldn't/didn't?

The jemhaeder are mass manufactured like factory goods. Wave after wave can be thrown at the enemy without regard for lost lives. They will do this without question. Compare this to a human who takes 18 years of feeding, schooling and training to mature. He does not have suicidal courage nor will his family be happy when he dies. When a Jemhaeder is lost ten more can take his place. When a starfleeter dies there will be families that grieve for generations and years wasted training a replacement.

Dominion seems be built around a policy of attrition and jemhaeder are perfect for that. One on one they maybe better fighters than many but that is not what they are designed for. Jemhaeder dont seem to be built as individual uber fighters but more like limitless canon fodder.

There disposibility might have another aspect -
If they rebel, who cares? Cut there white supply off, and there dead in a few days.

Solauren wrote:There disposibility might have another aspect -
If they rebel, who cares? Cut there white supply off, and there dead in a few days.

Which is also their weakness. An enemy striking the white supply can kill an army before it reaches the battlefield.

That's the problem with armies built around the attrition concept: the strategy works until you run into an enemy which is not only capable but willing to devise and execute ruthlessly efficient methods of mass-slaughter to win.

True enough.

However, the Dominion was what, 1000 years old or more by the time the Federation encountered them? Odds are, they encountered that situtation and had a contingency plan.

Patrick Degan wrote:

Solauren wrote:There disposibility might have another aspect -
If they rebel, who cares? Cut there white supply off, and there dead in a few days.

Which is also their weakness. An enemy striking the white supply can kill an army before it reaches the battlefield.

That's the problem with armies built around the attrition concept: the strategy works until you run into an enemy which is not only capable but willing to devise and execute ruthlessly efficient methods of mass-slaughter to win.

Quite true, but the Dominion has good tech and a willingness to use those tactics themselves. They probably simply never encountered an enemy that was capable of doing enough mass slaughter to seriously challenge them. It's not like the Founders have demonstrated any concern about how wasteful of lives their strategies are. As long as they win they build more ships and decant more Vorta and Jem Hadar.

Solauren wrote:True enough.

However, the Dominion was what, 1000 years old or more by the time the Federation encountered them? Odds are, they encountered that situtation and had a contingency plan.

Or, they hadn't encountered such an enemy in that thousand years.

Patrick Degan wrote:

Solauren wrote:True enough.

However, the Dominion was what, 1000 years old or more by the time the Federation encountered them? Odds are, they encountered that situtation and had a contingency plan.

Or, they hadn't encountered such an enemy in that thousand years.

You know, I forgot about that... The 1000 year Dominion Empire. Why hadn't they encountered the Feds before the wormhole? In 1000 years, wouldn't their domain have expanded enough to reach the Alpha Quadrant?

havokeff wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:

Solauren wrote:True enough.

However, the Dominion was what, 1000 years old or more by the time the Federation encountered them? Odds are, they encountered that situtation and had a contingency plan.

Or, they hadn't encountered such an enemy in that thousand years.

You know, I forgot about that... The 1000 year Dominion Empire. Why hadn't they encountered the Feds before the wormhole? In 1000 years, wouldn't their domain have expanded enough to reach the Alpha Quadrant?

Even with warp travel, the Galaxy is still a very big place. Without the wormhole, the Alpha Quadrant and the Gamma Quadrant are a century apart in terms of travel time. How many empires could hold together if it took decades just to send a battle force to the outmarches?

havokeff wrote:You know, I forgot about that... The 1000 year Dominion Empire. Why hadn't they encountered the Feds before the wormhole? In 1000 years, wouldn't their domain have expanded enough to reach the Alpha Quadrant?

According to the script from the final episode, it seems to be 2,000 years

FEMALE SHAPE-SHIFTER
(to Thot Pran)
I see your point. But for two
millennia the Jem'Hadar have been
the Dominion's first line of
defense. It would damage their
morale to take a back seat to the
Breen.

The Breen erupts with more STATIC. Whatever he's
saying, he's saying it emphatically.

FEMALE SHAPE-SHIFTER
Very well. In the spirit of our
new alliance, I will inform the
Jem'Hadar that the Breen forces
will be positioned alongside
them.



To support this, here's another piece of dialogue from the Deep Space Nine episode To The Death

WEYOUN
The Dominion has endured for two
thousand years. And it'll
continue to endure long after the
Federation has crumbled into dust.


On the Dominion not expanding out to the alpha quadrant in that time, I think it's natural to assume their warp drives were more primitive or less efficient for a lot of those 2,000 years than they were by the 24th century, which would mean it'd take even longer to actually get anywhere.

OR maybe they had been caught in many long wars.

It is also questionable how expansionistic the Dominion really is. Keep in mind, that they let the Federation explore the Gamma-quadrant for two or three years before they decided to take action against the Feds. Maybe the establishment of that Bajoran colony they talk about in "The Jem'Hadar" was the straw, that broke the camels back.

I would think the the Founders distrust for the solids would keep them in an expansion mind set. If they control all the solids they don't have to worry about threats.

havokeff wrote:I would think the the Founders distrust for the solids would keep them in an expansion mind set. If they control all the solids they don't have to worry about threats.

They wanted to expand and control the solids in the alpha quadrant, but only when they had a reasonable way to actually get there via the wormhole. As others have mentioned, trying to control distant reaches of the galaxy via normal warp drive would be quite hard. Even sending a message to the other side of your empire would take many years, if not decades without a new breakthrough in communications technology like the one Voyager used to communicate with home.

Do we even really know how large the Dominion is in the gamma quadrant?

I dunno if it can be considered canon or not, but that Star Charts book they put out last year had the Dominion at about 15,000 LY across, more than twice the Federation's size.

ShadowSonic wrote:I dunno if it can be considered canon or not, but that Star Charts book they put out last year had the Dominion at about 15,000 LY across, more than twice the Federation's size.

Fed's largest expanse is about 10000 LY, so the Dominion would need to be bigger than that to be consistent with the on-screen presentation.

10,000 LY for the Federation? I thought it was 8,000 LY.

Anyways, the book went with 8,000 LY for the Federation and about 14-15,000 LY for the Dominion. So if the Federation is 10,000 LY in canon than the Dominion would be about 18-19,000 LY to maintain the "nearly twice the size" estimate.