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Currently in Star Trek, Ferengi seem like a collection of loan sharks and swindling car dealers. What if, instead of a collection of independent merchants, the Ferengi were a collection of corporations, or even a corporate state?

This could be extended to their military as well. In the classical era, armies were organized based on the wealthy of their soldiers, with the richest ones filling officer’s billets. I think that would be neat to see on the show. Someone like Rom would be a base mechanic, with wealthier Ferengi commanding and supporting their war fleets.
Maybe Ferengi could just buy their commissions.
Or perhaps it could be arranged like the Carthaginians, with a powerful army made up of mercenaries supporting their fleets. We do see Liquidator Brunt using Nausicaan body guards. It would even fit in with Gene Rodenberry’s left wing views to have the capitalists being more warlike and cruel then the enlightened commies of the Federation.

Government? They could have votes for Grand Nagus purchased like shares of stock, or have a board of stockholders who could remove a Grand Nagus, much like how the Old Republic Senate could hold a vote of no confidence in the Supreme Chancellor.

There's a lot that could have been done even within the boundaries of the “Evil Capitalist” cliché but was wasted. I think it would have worked a lot better then simply having individual greed being the focus of everything.

Actually, much of what you suggest was, from my point of view, hinted at in DS9 with Quark and the Ferengi episodes there. They actually went pretty deep into Ferengi society considering it wasn't a "Ferengi show". Armin Shimmerman did a lot to rehabilitate the image of the Ferengi considering what a disasterous farce they had been made in early TNG.

But, yeah, a more clear view on their world & its systems would be interesting, and the feudal-corporatocracy model would be an ideal base point.

I think you've got it backwards. Much of that was hinted at before in Early TNG, but then was pushed aside in favor of making them a Running Gag Race for the light episodes of DS9. In early TNG, they were every bit as powerful as the Federation, mysterious, and and quick to shoot first for their interests. This somehow mutated into them being spineless wimps and snake oil salesmen, with a ridiculous comedic government in the Grand Nagus and his office.

Personally, it would be cool to see them as an almost completely decentralized freewheeling society, balanced vaguely by a common system of rules, which in the mind of the enterprising (or villainous) Ferengi are extremely flexible.

We're talking about the guys that were supposed to be a "serious threat to the Federation" by running around all hunchbacked with "energy whips" and punctuating every sentence with Bela Lugosi hisses?

There was a lot of rediculous stuff to the Ferengi episodes of DS9, but the thing about females being kept naked was established in the early TNG episodes, not something brought into DS9. They had to work with that as given, although I think if they'd dropped it the audience would have pretended not to notice.

But until DS9 each and every Ferengi was a copy of the other-- hissing little squirrels, with the occassional DaiMon showing some initiative like the one that trapped Picard with the Constellation. Even then he was slammed for not "engaging in profit", like being ordered back into his cardboard cutout role.

Whereas in DS9 you had to deal with Rom, who tried to fit the role but failed and finally had to admit he didn't really care overmuch about profit; his son Nog who flat-out admitted that he was more interested in duty and responsibility; even Quark, who was obviously trying to be the model Ferengi was making only modest progress and had to deal with the fact that he'd never be much more than what he was at that point.

In "the Magnificent Ferengi" we saw a Ferengi sadist, and we also got to meet Ferengi arms dealers doing what profit-motivated people would really be doing in a galaxy at war-- profiting off of the suffering.

The Grand Nagus episodes were one-offs, although it was the Nagus trying to rush in and exploit the Gamma Quadrant that brought the Dominion to the fore. No matter how much had been done for the Ferengi on DS9, they'd pretty much already been written off as a joke race and considering we are talking about Trek here there was no hope that truly good writing would come along and provide total salvation.

1. I'd drop the "Evil Capitalist" stereotype altogether. At best, I might retain it as a stereotype the Federation clings to for some reason. Perhaps Federation propaganda denigrates Ferengi as selfish, greedy cheaters to discourage their people from dealing with them.

2. The Ferengi wouldn't be a culture made up entirely of merchants, but would have people from all walks of life. They could have a set of beliefs that teach them to strive to gain from every experience, and to get the most, physically and personally, from their time in the universe. As a result, they have a culture where competiton and achievement are revered, and for some reason, business has become the most revered form of competition. While not all Ferengi are merchants, those who become merchants are regarded as heroes. Also, the Ferengi could believe that facilitating the development of others is a noble act. This results in them trading more advanced technology to low-tech worlds they find. This helps bring them into conflict with the Federation, which they consider at best unintentionally cruel and at worst condescending for denying help to needy cultures. This difference of belief results in conflict between the Ferengi and the Federation.

3. The Ferengi, as a culture that reveres trade, could have strictly enforced laws concerning honesty in their dealings with others, and strict standards of quality in their goods and services. These rules are enforced just as strictly on outsiders as on their own, as they have no tolerance for being cheated and can't afford to damage their entire people's reputation.

4. The Ferengi's physical appearance, short, stooped, jug-eared, makes it easy for some to mistake them for weak or cowardly. However, this obviously doesn't have to be true. Stories could abound of fleets of Ferengi ships hunting down malcontents from their own kind who blacken their people's good name, or outsiders who try to cheat them of what they are owed, even if it's not a lot.

5. Ferengi technology could easily be a combination of technologies acquired from others. Their fleet could be mostly Ferengi-built freighters and military vessels, but individual merchants could own one or more modified alien ships, old designs written off by their owners, bought by Ferengi and refitted with new tech. While the Ferengi government may not typically recruit outsiders, they wouldn't prevent their people from hiring them. As a result, Ferengi trading fleets could be shown as a jumble, with Ferengi freighters flying in the middle of an escort of various alien designs.

6. The Ferengi need a history that gives them a sense of pride. My idea is that their first contact with aliens resulted in them purchasing their first warp drives. They used this technology to begin trading with other species in their region of space, establishing good relations with them. When one of the species they encountered tried to invade their homeworld, the Ferengi used their network of trading partners to obtain weapons and assistance to defend themselves. While they traditionally prefer trade and peaceful relations to war, they quickly proved a tough opponent and eventually drove off the invasion. Their great pride is only partly because of the courage with which they fought, but mostly because it proved to them the value of trade and diplomacy in making them able to get what they need to survive.

My idea is to give the Ferengi a number of positive traits, so they look like a real civilization and not an ugly stereotype or a pathetic joke. There's no point in having a recurring group of aliens if they're just there to be derided as irredeemable bad guys. surely Star Trek should have learned that with the Klingons.

CDiehl wrote:My idea is to give the Ferengi a number of positive traits, so they look like a real civilization and not an ugly stereotype or a pathetic joke. There's no point in having a recurring group of aliens if they're just there to be derided as irredeemable bad guys. surely Star Trek should have learned that with the Klingons.

Good points, overall. It makes sense to NOT have the enemy be a used car salesman. (The 'G.I. Joe' cartoons FAILED to pull it off with Cobra Commander-- 'The Next Generation' should've learned from that.)

More Pirate Ferengi less sniveling trader Ferengi. When we first saw them in TNG they had Da'Kora class Marauders that where well enough armed to give even Picard on the Enterprise second thoughts. The they near enough dissapeared. Whats up with that?

One of the DS9 books had the Ferengi Alliance trying to start a war with the Bjorans so they could take the system and own the wormhole.

If I was writting DS9 I'd have had the Ferengi joining the Dominion and adding their Marauders to the Dominion Fleet, a Da'Kora class ship would certainly pwn a Cardie Galor Class in my opinion. Have the Nagus turn up with a fleet at the defence of DS9 saying they're on the Federation's side, they shoot out to face the incomming Jemmie battle bugs and as they get withing range they about face and join in the attack, kinda like the Irish in Braveheart. In return the Ferengi are promised the rights to act as the Administration for the subjucated Alpha Quadrant. Perhaps in the later stages of the Dominion War a Ferengi Civil War, with one side wanting to join the Alliance because they know they'll be betrayed. Adds a nice dynamic for the Federation, do they accept help from a power that stabbed them in the back because they need all the ships they can get or do they leave the Ferengi Rebels to get slaughtered and deny themselves some good fighting ships.

Building on the idea of the Ferengi building their empire entirely through trade and, when faced with war, buying arms from their trading partners to defend themselves, you could go further and posit the notion that the Ferengi got clever enough to actually find the means to buy their enemies out. They'd steadily gain control over the enemy industries either directly or through shadow partners even while the other side is threatening or prosecuting war against Ferengenar until they can shut off the enemy government's finances and materiel. A survival tactic which they'd played against dozens of would-be conquerors in the past.

Patrick Degan wrote:Building on the idea of the Ferengi building their empire entirely through trade and, when faced with war, buying arms from their trading partners to defend themselves, you could go further and posit the notion that the Ferengi got clever enough to actually find the means to buy their enemies out. They'd steadily gain control over the enemy industries either directly or through shadow partners even while the other side is threatening or prosecuting war against Ferengenar until they can shut off the enemy government's finances and materiel. A survival tactic which they'd played against dozens of would-be conquerors in the past.

I like this a lot. Use finance and business as a weapon against the enemy. Maybe takeover defense industries through front conglomerates and purposely run them into the ground (not all at once, in very subtle ways of course). Take over manufacturing and selectively put flaws in critical areas. Mess around with the domestic financial markets to create economic panics. Use corporate lobbyists to influence the enemy government. This would also seem to make the Ferengi masters of espionage to set-up the dummy firms and not have them tracked back to the Ferengi. Lots of good ideas here.

That actually raises a question I've had about Trek. I can understand that in the Federation most manufacturing, resource collection, R&D, etc are all controlled and managed directly by the Federation Government itself, but where are the corporations within the Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire, Cardassian Union, and other alien races? Are they all directly controlling all that stuff, or is it we've just never seen them since they never played into the plots?

Well, from DS9 we know that a Klingon widow had to force a Ferengi into marrying her to uncover some embezzling of her husband's estate, and even the leaders of the Klingon government couldn't understand an audit of a great house. As ludicrous as it may be, it would appear that by DS9 the Klingons are exclusively warriors.

Didn't Ezris family own a large mining company and have a lot of competition? Were they part of the Federation?

Jason wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:Building on the idea of the Ferengi building their empire entirely through trade and, when faced with war, buying arms from their trading partners to defend themselves, you could go further and posit the notion that the Ferengi got clever enough to actually find the means to buy their enemies out. They'd steadily gain control over the enemy industries either directly or through shadow partners even while the other side is threatening or prosecuting war against Ferengenar until they can shut off the enemy government's finances and materiel. A survival tactic which they'd played against dozens of would-be conquerors in the past.

I like this a lot. Use finance and business as a weapon against the enemy. Maybe takeover defense industries through front conglomerates and purposely run them into the ground (not all at once, in very subtle ways of course). Take over manufacturing and selectively put flaws in critical areas. Mess around with the domestic financial markets to create economic panics. Use corporate lobbyists to influence the enemy government. This would also seem to make the Ferengi masters of espionage to set-up the dummy firms and not have them tracked back to the Ferengi. Lots of good ideas here.

Damn could that be what was happening to the Federation? The Feringi were slowly weakening it with unknowing help from the PAAP party?

Dump the idiotic "Rules of Acquisition". The problem with Ferengi culture was that the writers never took the idea of Ferengi society seriously. They never tried to envision a society that might actually work. So they had the Ferengi worshipping quasi-religious rules in which they were encouraged to defraud each other on a continuous basis. Were they honestly supposed to be so stupid that they could not see the negative impact on the entire society of such behaviour? Every moral code on Earth, from the most advanced society to the most primitive, has some prohibition against lying, and there's a reason for that (and no, it's not the Ten Commandments).

When you make a society that really should not function at all, it can only be for comedic purposes. Either that, or moronic writers (like the guys who came up with the idea that it's dishonourable for a Klingon to be anything but a warrior; who the fuck maintains their infrastructure?)

Weren't there Klingon lawyers and chefs and stuff in DS9? I always figured that it was the warriors themselves (and even then, not all of them) who thought it was dishonorable to not be a warrior, not Klingon society as a whole.

If one needs to keep the "capitalist/merchant/corporate" idea, have the warrior/military caste represent mercenaries. The corproate/Government (other) interests would then be able to select/purchase the kind of muscle they need from an available pool (at whatever cost they were willing to pay.)

The mercenary ideal woudl also probably necessitate the warrior-ferengi to be rather skilled and rather well equipped (something else that could factor into payment as "expenses" - semipermanent arrangements might even be arranged around the concept of providing supply and repair services as well as payment. Or even new/better equipment.)

ShadowSonic wrote:Weren't there Klingon lawyers and chefs and stuff in DS9? I always figured that it was the warriors themselves (and even then, not all of them) who thought it was dishonorable to not be a warrior, not Klingon society as a whole.

I caught a part of an ENT episode where a Klingon was talking about how for centuries the warrior shit got kinda downplayed, and klingons found honor in other worthwhile professions (essentially public service jobs), but by the 2100's Klingon society was backtracking into space-viking mode.

Actually looked like it may have been an actual, okay ENT episode. Anyone see the whole thing?

I think that was "Judgement", it was a story where Archer is finally captured by the Klingons (who had put a bounty on him earlier in the series) and put on trial for his "crimes" against the Klingon people and the prosecutor is the ancestor of Duras.

His lawyer is a Klingon lawyer played by J.G. Hertzler, who may or maynot be Martok's ancestor.

ShadowSonic wrote:I think that was "Judgement", it was a story where Archer is finally captured by the Klingons (who had put a bounty on him earlier in the series) and put on trial for his "crimes" against the Klingon people and the prosecutor is the ancestor of Duras.

His lawyer is a Klingon lawyer played by J.G. Hertzler, who may or maynot be Martok's ancestor.

Don't you love it when they shoehorn in their favourite actors and make it appear as if a handful of people or their ancestors have been involved in every major event in the last 200 years? Remember Worf's ancestor defending Kirk in ST6?

I think the only confirmed one was Duras' ancestor, who got killed a few episodes later anyways. The lawyer being Martok's ancestor is just fan speculation because Maltzer was the actor (doesn't mean he's Martok's ancestor).

Same with the Klingon scientist we see in S4, he's played by John Schuck but there's no indication that he's the ancestor of the Klingon Ambassador from TVH and TUC.

Don't you love it when they shoehorn in their favourite actors and make it appear as if a handful of people or their ancestors have been involved in every major event in the last 200 years? Remember Worf's ancestor defending Kirk in ST6?

Trek just likes to recycle good actors in various roles (just look at how many regulars Jeffrey Combs has played) . There's nothing in canon, or even from the production crew, saying that they're related in any way.

CDiehl wrote:Also, the Ferengi could believe that facilitating the development of others is a noble act. This results in them trading more advanced technology to low-tech worlds they find. This helps bring them into conflict with the Federation, which they consider at best unintentionally cruel and at worst condescending for denying help to needy cultures. This difference of belief results in conflict between the Ferengi and the Federation.

Couldn't have that. That would make it obvious to the entire audience how hollow the Prime Directive that demands they sit there and let lesser cultures die, is.

Cool though it would be to see Picard trying to stop the Ferengi aiding some planet. "This planet is in federation space" "Really, Picard? Amazing that its owners don't know that..."

Darth Wong wrote:

ShadowSonic wrote:I think that was "Judgement", it was a story where Archer is finally captured by the Klingons (who had put a bounty on him earlier in the series) and put on trial for his "crimes" against the Klingon people and the prosecutor is the ancestor of Duras.

His lawyer is a Klingon lawyer played by J.G. Hertzler, who may or maynot be Martok's ancestor.

Don't you love it when they shoehorn in their favourite actors and make it appear as if a handful of people or their ancestors have been involved in every major event in the last 200 years? Remember Worf's ancestor defending Kirk in ST6?

Me thinks they were pulling the same trick they tried (and failed) to pull with Nemesis--simply copying better stuff.

ShadowSonic wrote:I think that was "Judgement", it was a story where Archer is finally captured by the Klingons (who had put a bounty on him earlier in the series) and put on trial for his "crimes" against the Klingon people and the prosecutor is the ancestor of Duras.

His lawyer is a Klingon lawyer played by J.G. Hertzler, who may or maynot be Martok's ancestor.

I thought the Klingon captain whose ship was disabled by Enterprise was supposedly the ancestor of Duras, not the proescutor.

Was there any actual link between Captain Duras and the Duras seen on The Next Generation ever made, or did they just share the same name?

I figured the ENT Duras was TNG Duras' ancestor due to the same name, meaning he must have already had a child (since Archer killed him in the end of S2) or he wasn't the direct ancestor of TNG's Duras, maybe his great Uncle or something?

Of course, there's the possibility there is no connection, but since this is a TV show and not real life, what are the odds of that?