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Captain Kruger wrote:You sure about this auto-targeting? I can't say I've ever seen it. I think phaser accuracy is just a big part of their training. Look how good Riker is with the ergonomic nightmare that is the Type 2 pistol.

Quite sure. I did an essay on this. There is canon dialogue of Kira explaining how the Type-3 has multiple target aquisition capabilities. We see the rifle itself fire off axis. Multiple times in TNG and DS9 the Type-2 is fired while pointed in an odd direction but it still manages to hit its target.

Alyeska wrote:

Captain Kruger wrote:You sure about this auto-targeting? I can't say I've ever seen it. I think phaser accuracy is just a big part of their training. Look how good Riker is with the ergonomic nightmare that is the Type 2 pistol.

Quite sure. I did an essay on this. There is canon dialogue of Kira explaining how the Type-3 has multiple target aquisition capabilities. We see the rifle itself fire off axis. Multiple times in TNG and DS9 the Type-2 is fired while pointed in an odd direction but it still manages to hit its target.

From a range of a few metres, and it's entirely possible that their quality control is just so bad that each weapon has a slightly different axis of fire. After all, a continuous beam weapon allows negative visual feedback for bringing the beam on target, albeit at the cost of extravagant energy use. You can't explain their silly "shoot the dot" target practice if the phasers are auto-aiming; take the scene where Worf and Guinan are practicing; Worf isn't missing by much, is he? And we've seen the controls on a Type II; there is nothing but a power setting, so don't tell me he disabled this fancy feature.

All of the electronics in a phaser seem to be there just to make it shoot straight and shoot at all. Screw them up and the phaser doesn't just shoot straight; it doesn't shoot at all. Remember "Ensigns of Command?"

We've all heard the dialogue about tracking, acquisition, yadda yadda yadda. We have yet to hear dialogue about auto-aiming. A tricorder has target tracking, it could conceivably have friend-or-foe recognition, etc. Doesn't mean it can aim your gun for you. A stormtrooper's armour has the same capabilities; doesn't mean it can aim your gun for you. Target tracking and acquisition might only mean that it pops up a nice display of the target on that little flip-up, or a light goes red when it's aimed properly.

Except we see people making shots while firing from the hip. As I said. My essay covers this and it is very clear that phasers have auto tracking capabilities.

The fact they fire from the hip just indicates Starfleet Academy training is that piss-poor dealing with their own fire-arms.

Jedi could easilycave in the wallsaround their position if they were in need to. They could also throw their lightsaber, ala Luke in HttH. Force pushing, choking, and mind tricks would probably kill the aliens, or persuade them to move along, move along....In fact, any random scenery nearby could be used to their advantage.

My stragtegy can work in any scenario though. Send out the teams, and slowly advance, trying not ot get too far away from the shuttle. Once the aliens to show up (how many I don't know) bust it back to the shuttle, perhaps sacrificing a couple no name ensigns if necesary. Once they get back to the shuttle, I'd absolutely love to see the aliens try to fuck with any sci-fi civs shuttle armaments, just think of what a Lambda's guns would do. They'd be blood and guts, and spit 'n ass everywhere.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The fact they fire from the hip just indicates Starfleet Academy training is that piss-poor dealing with their own fire-arms.

Yet they manage to hit targets while firing from the hip. The issue has been settled. The essay is written and no one has yet to be able to disprove auto-aiming capabilities for Starfleet rifles.

Alyeska wrote:Yet they manage to hit targets while firing from the hip. The issue has been settled. The essay is written and no one has yet to be able to disprove auto-aiming capabilities for Starfleet rifles.

A link to your essay, please, if it's not too much trouble anyways.

Alyeska wrote:Yet they manage to hit targets while firing from the hip.

At close range. Proves nothing.

The issue has been settled. The essay is written and no one has yet to be able to disprove auto-aiming capabilities for Starfleet rifles.

I wasn't aware that people could unilaterally declare issues settled. As for the disproof you seek, you are aware of the fallacy of demanding proof of a negative, aren't you?

The hypothesis of auto-aiming generates numerous predictions, not least of which is better accuracy than what we've seen. You have been repeatedly challenged with this, and your answer is to mumble something about how you need to be trained in the use of the auto-aimer in order for it to auto-aim properly

Darth Wong wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Yet they manage to hit targets while firing from the hip.

At close range. Proves nothing.

We have seen them used in excess of 100 meters before without use of the targeting recticle.

The issue has been settled. The essay is written and no one has yet to be able to disprove auto-aiming capabilities for Starfleet rifles.

I wasn't aware that people could unilaterally declare issues settled. As for the disproof you seek, you are aware of the fallacy of demanding proof of a negative, aren't you?

Because no one was able to bring up sufficent evidence against what I stated and since both visuals and dialogue supported my claim, it seems obvious.

The hypothesis of auto-aiming generates numerous predictions, not least of which is better accuracy than what we've seen. You have been repeatedly challenged with this, and your answer is to mumble something about how you need to be trained in the use of the auto-aimer in order for it to auto-aim properly

I stated I had no idea how auto-aiming worked and that it propably required training like anything else. You claim that auto aiming would create better accuracy yet we have seen impossible accuracy multiple times from people firing from the hip. You can not repeatedly hit a target while firing from the hip. Insurrection is the most damning because they are hitting small hard to hit drones while firing with the gun jammed into their stomache.

Alyeska wrote:I stated I had no idea how auto-aiming worked and that it propably required training like anything else. You claim that auto aiming would create better accuracy yet we have seen impossible accuracy multiple times from people firing from the hip. You can not repeatedly hit a target while firing from the hip.

You can when it's ten feet away.

Insurrection is the most damning because they are hitting small hard to hit drones while firing with the gun jammed into their stomache.

You mean the drones which were so close that Worf was able to hit one with his phaser rifle by swinging it like a baseball bat?

When did we see someone hitting anything at 100 metres while shooting from the hip? Please, enlighten me on this event. Notice how they didn't even bother trying to shoot back at So'na with their rifles when caught from that kind of range, and Worf ended up wasting his bazooka on them.

DS9 Rocks and Shoals, Season 6, episode 2.

http://www.phasers.net/2360/ds9tp3f.jpg

The Jem'Hadar assaulted the Starfleet position. Four Starfleet shots are put in the dirt infront of the Jem'Hadar creating a cloud of dust blocking the view of the Jem'Hadar. Then the 5 Jem'Hadar are downed in 6 shots. None of the Starfleet personel or Garak were using their sights and most were holding their rifle to low for the line of the rifle itself to be a useful sight.

http://www.phasers.net/2360/ds9tp3g.jpg

As you can see not even O'Brien was properly sighting down his rifle. Yet they had 83% accuracy at a range of more then 100 meters.

Darth Wong wrote:

Alyeska wrote:I stated I had no idea how auto-aiming worked and that it propably required training like anything else. You claim that auto aiming would create better accuracy yet we have seen impossible accuracy multiple times from people firing from the hip. You can not repeatedly hit a target while firing from the hip.

You can when it's ten feet away.

They have been accurate hiting targets while not sighting at much longer ranges.

Insurrection is the most damning because they are hitting small hard to hit drones while firing with the gun jammed into their stomache.

You mean the drones which were so close that Worf was able to hit one with his phaser rifle by swinging it like a baseball bat?

The only reason Worf got the drone was because it flew to close to him. The ones that Picard and Crusher shot at were much further away.

When did we see someone hitting anything at 100 metres while shooting from the hip? Please, enlighten me on this event. Notice how they didn't even bother trying to shoot back at So'na with their rifles when caught from that kind of range, and Worf ended up wasting his bazooka on them.

Just posted above. And in Insurrection they spotted the Sona, and Worf got ready to shoot at them. Then a SINGLE Sona shot was fired, then Worf returned fire. Worf was assaulting them while the rest were staying with the Baku.

Alyeska wrote:DS9 Rocks and Shoals, Season 6, episode 2.

http://www.phasers.net/2360/ds9tp3f.jpg

The Jem'Hadar assaulted the Starfleet position. Four Starfleet shots are put in the dirt infront of the Jem'Hadar creating a cloud of dust blocking the view of the Jem'Hadar. Then the 5 Jem'Hadar are downed in 6 shots. None of the Starfleet personel or Garak were using their sights and most were holding their rifle to low for the line of the rifle itself to be a useful sight.

How do you know they were 100 metres away? Need I remind you that one of the Jem'Hadar managed to score a kill with his handgun? I suppose they're auto-aiming too?

http://www.phasers.net/2360/ds9tp3g.jpg

As you can see not even O'Brien was properly sighting down his rifle. Yet they had 83% accuracy at a range of more then 100 meters.

How do a total of 10 shots and 5 hits add up to 83%? You have better negative visual feedback with a visual beam or bolt; they missed the first shots and adjusted to score with the second salvo, from an undetermined range at which JH were able to achieve reasonable return fire accuracy with handguns. I don't see anything here which requires auto-aiming technology instead of years of practice.

As for the drones in Insurrection, please post an estimate of their range. "Far" isn't very useful.

Darth Wong wrote:

Alyeska wrote:DS9 Rocks and Shoals, Season 6, episode 2.

http://www.phasers.net/2360/ds9tp3f.jpg

The Jem'Hadar assaulted the Starfleet position. Four Starfleet shots are put in the dirt infront of the Jem'Hadar creating a cloud of dust blocking the view of the Jem'Hadar. Then the 5 Jem'Hadar are downed in 6 shots. None of the Starfleet personel or Garak were using their sights and most were holding their rifle to low for the line of the rifle itself to be a useful sight.

How do you know they were 100 metres away? Need I remind you that one of the Jem'Hadar managed to score a kill with his handgun? I suppose they're auto-aiming too?[/qoote]

Actually the Jem'Hadar had both rifles and pistols. And you can tell its 100+ yards because you see the formations that they are near to, then you see from the Jem'Hadar position. The range was very far.

http://www.phasers.net/2360/ds9tp3g.jpg

As you can see not even O'Brien was properly sighting down his rifle. Yet they had 83% accuracy at a range of more then 100 meters.

How do a total of 10 shots and 5 hits add up to 83%? You have better negative visual feedback with a visual beam or bolt; they missed the first shots and adjusted to score with the second salvo, from an undetermined range at which JH were able to achieve reasonable return fire accuracy with handguns. I don't see anything here which requires auto-aiming technology instead of years of practice.

Because the first shots were all forward and put up a cloud of dust that made it difficult to see through. Then the next 6 shots were directly on target and 5 of them hit perfectly while the 6th missed by a bare margin. You don't have three different people all miss teribly, then suddenly score perfect on the next shot. If your gonna miss your target on the first shot, your gonna miss your target on the second shot. Regardless, if they were trully missing then the three shots should have been spread out, as in infront, inbetween, behind, to the side, etc... Instead the first 3-4 shots were all fired foward putting up a significant cloud and then the rest of the shots were perfect or almost perfect.

As for the drones in Insurrection, please post an estimate of their range. "Far" isn't very useful.

Thats going to take a bit, give me some time.

Alyeska wrote:Actually the Jem'Hadar had both rifles and pistols. And you can tell its 100+ yards because you see the formations that they are near to, then you see from the Jem'Hadar position. The range was very far.

Do you have a screenshot showing this range?

Because the first shots were all forward and put up a cloud of dust that made it difficult to see through. Then the next 6 shots were directly on target and 5 of them hit perfectly while the 6th missed by a bare margin. You don't have three different people all miss teribly, then suddenly score perfect on the next shot.

But you do have three different auto-aiming systems all miss terribly, then hit on the next shot? If this is an auto-aiming system, it must require a calibration shot, which does not speak well of its quality of manufacture.

If your gonna miss your target on the first shot, your gonna miss your target on the second shot.

And how does this fit in with "auto-aiming?"

Regardless, if they were trully missing then the three shots should have been spread out, as in infront, inbetween, behind, to the side, etc... Instead the first 3-4 shots were all fired foward putting up a significant cloud and then the rest of the shots were perfect or almost perfect.

They miss half their shots, but the ones that hit are "perfect"? It's amazing how you can achieve perfection through selective analysis.

As for the drones in Insurrection, please post an estimate of their range. "Far" isn't very useful.

Thats going to take a bit, give me some time.

The range evidence from "Rocks and Shoals" would also be useful. A shot of O'Brien's face does not exactly help us establish range.

Just to refine things. I am going to lock this thread and place a link in the main Phaser rifle thread. We can continue this debate in there Mike.