StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Ok, I've gotten some more info on the battle group from Nemesis. Consists of this:

USS Intrepid : Prototype of the Intrepid class, accually armaments unknown, but probly the same as a normal Intrepid

USS Valiant : Defiant class, destroyed by a Dominion War ship in DS9 Valiant, probly a new Defiant given the same name

USS Galaxy : Prototype of the Galaxy Class ship, seriously damaged in a battle with the Cardassians in DS9 Tears of the Prophets, 5 years later it is part of the battle group, so it has had plenty of time to rebuild, but if its a war galaxy or not is unknown.

USS Aires(fuzzy pic, name may be wrong) : Unknown ship and class.

USS Nova : Unknown ship, but probly a Nova-Class, pathetic fighting capabilities.

USS Wood(name may be wrong) : Unknown ship and class.

USS Archer: An Excelsior class ship, named after Captain Archer of the NX-01 Enterprise.

So, question is, could this battle group, with several proto-types, a full fledged science vessel, and a antiquity warship, plus two unknowns, take the Scimitar, going full force(unlike how it was doing with the E-E) and undamaged by the fight with the E-E.

The USS-Galaxy does not have the same problems that the other early GCSs had. It was able to sustain heavy damage at Chin'Toka but it was still fighting back. With this many targets fighting the Scimitar and the possibility of the Nova using its sensors to find the Scimitar, I would give them a high chance of winning.

anarchistbunny wrote:Ok, I've gotten some more info on the battle group from Nemesis. Consists of this:

USS Intrepid : Prototype of the Intrepid class, accually armaments unknown, but probly the same as a normal Intrepid

USS Valiant : Defiant class, destroyed by a Dominion War ship in DS9 Valiant, probly a new Defiant given the same name

USS Galaxy : Prototype of the Galaxy Class ship, seriously damaged in a battle with the Cardassians in DS9 Tears of the Prophets, 5 years later it is part of the battle group, so it has had plenty of time to rebuild, but if its a war galaxy or not is unknown.

USS Aires(fuzzy pic, name may be wrong) : Unknown ship and class.

USS Nova : Unknown ship, but probly a Nova-Class, pathetic fighting capabilities.

USS Wood(name may be wrong) : Unknown ship and class.

USS Archer: An Excelsior class ship, named after Captain Archer of the NX-01 Enterprise.

So, question is, could this battle group, with several proto-types, a full fledged science vessel, and a antiquity warship, plus two unknowns, take the Scimitar, going full force(unlike how it was doing with the E-E) and undamaged by the fight with the E-E.

I thought the Hood was one of the ships.

I don't think the Intrepid is necessarily an Intrepid class... in the TNG episode where Data tries to train his cat, Geordi has a rivalry with the chief engineer of the Intrepid. I don't think the Intrepid class ships were around by that time.

Also, with regards to the Nova, it is more designed for science ship duties; it might have sensor abilities the Enterprise and other ships of the battlegroup wouldn't.

The Excelsior-class starships have been shown to have been upgraded since the time of ST:TUC; with modern systems, they retain the ability to pack a punch.

Actually we know that this is most likely the Intrepid of the Intrepid class. Either Geordi had a contest with another class of ship, or it was the first Intrepid. Thing is its most likely that this is the lead of the ship class because we have no other indication of this being a newer ship. Given the near lack of Intrepid class ships in the Dominion war the USS Intrepid most likely survived.

Alyeska wrote:The USS-Galaxy does not have the same problems that the other early GCSs had. It was able to sustain heavy damage at Chin'Toka but it was still fighting back.

True. It is clearly a modified version of the original GCS, although the extent of its modifications is not known. BTW, the location of the hull armor on the modified GCS ships has always bothered me. That's not a part of the ship that is under attack a lot, and no ship has ever had problems there. This only becomes more curious when you consider that the GCS was probably designed to fight in a "flying wall" formation, along with other ships, and might have even been meant as the spearhead ship.

I would conjecture that the "armor" is actually designed to help the ship go faster. We know that there are structural problems associated with the E-D travelling above a certain warp factor, and that the limiting factor does not appear to be the engines, but rather the structure of the ship. Since the "spine" of the GCS would be expected to suffer from more stress than most other areas of the ship while it is in warp, I would conjecture that the armored spine is actually designed to help the ship move at speeds in excess of warp 9, and that any advantage it grants in combat is more coincidental than intentional. Any other modifications to that particular sub-class I would have to look at, but I would also suspect the ship to be considerably better at combat than its original brethren, both because of clear advances in SF military technology since the Galaxy class was launched, and also because of its observed survival of the Battle of Chintoka.

With this many targets fighting the Scimitar and the possibility of the Nova using its sensors to find the Scimitar, I would give them a high chance of winning.

1. There is no indication that a Nova class ship's sensors can in fact locate or even detect the Scimitar, and there is significant circumstantial evidence that they could not.
2. It's irrelevent whether or not they could beat the Scimitar, unless you believe that SF was counting on ONLY the Scimitar moving to battle the E-E, without any support from the rest of the Romulan fleet.

I did a bit of research, and found this:

Hood - Excelsior class ship
Nova - Nova Class ship
Valiant - Defiant Class ship
Intrepid - Could be either an Intrepid class or an Excelsior class
Galaxy - Galaxy class
Archer - Unknown class (Akira?)
Aires - Unknown class

So yes, with the advanced sensors of the Nova, either two Excelsiors OR an Excelsior and an Intrepid (both mediocre combat ships), a Galaxy (excelent combat vessel), a Defiant (another excelent combat vessel), and two unknown ships, one possibly an Akira, that would be a VERY formidable battlegroup. I would say that those, with the support of the two Romulan ships, would be able to easily take the Scimitar.

NF_Utvol wrote:I did a bit of research, and found this:

Hood - Excelsior class ship
Nova - Nova Class ship
Valiant - Defiant Class ship
Intrepid - Could be either an Intrepid class or an Excelsior class
Galaxy - Galaxy class
Archer - Unknown class (Akira?)
Aires - Unknown class

So yes, with the advanced sensors of the Nova, either two Excelsiors OR an Excelsior and an Intrepid (both mediocre combat ships), a Galaxy (excelent combat vessel), a Defiant (another excelent combat vessel), and two unknown ships, one possibly an Akira, that would be a VERY formidable battlegroup. I would say that those, with the support of the two Romulan ships, would be able to easily take the Scimitar.

I agree, but I don't think that you are correctly examining what we know. The UFP's battle group should have been EASILY capable of destroying the Scimitar, even without the help of the Romulan ships. In fact, it would only have been effective if it could have destroyed AT LEAST the Scimitar AND the Romulan ships, because it was sent there without knowledge of the Romulan fleet movements.

They'd own the Scimitar. A few lesser vessels might be destroyed though.

The one problem would be that the other ships would have to protect the Nova, since one or two shots would probably destroy it.

Master of Ossus wrote:1. There is no indication that a Nova class ship's sensors can in fact locate or even detect the Scimitar, and there is significant circumstantial evidence that they could not.
2. It's irrelevent whether or not they could beat the Scimitar, unless you believe that SF was counting on ONLY the Scimitar moving to battle the E-E, without any support from the rest of the Romulan fleet.

Technically no. But Science ships are used for studying things and part of that would involve having powerful and precise sensor arrays to conduct their studies. Because of that I think that the Nova has a fair chance of detecting the Scimitar. With it tied in to the fleet, they could Alpha Strike the Scimitar with enough firepower to take down its cloak. If the Nova can't detect the Scimitar, the fleet will have to do what the Enterprise did. When they find it they will need to concentrate all their firepower on the Scimitar. With their total firepower and the angles they can strike from, I can see them managing to knock the cloak out regardless. The Scimitar is certainly powerful, but its got its short commings.

They site I read listed the Intrepid as a prototype for the Intrepid-Class, also it says the Archer is a Excelsior.

anarchistbunny wrote:They site I read listed the Intrepid as a prototype for the Intrepid-Class, also it says the Archer is a Excelsior.

The Intrepid more then likely is of the Intrepid class. In TNG the Intrepid was mentioned but it was an Excelsior class. So we know that ship was decomissioned then the Intrepid herself was built shortly there after. Considering that the Intrepid class seemed to not ever be seen in combat I highly doubt the Intrepid was lost in the war. That means in Nemesis the ship mentioned is the Intrepid of the Intrepid class.

I don't really have any problems thinking that that task-force could destroy the Scimitar, and in fact think that it would be able to defeat Skippy fairly easily, but I don't see much evidence that the Nova was there to detect the Scimitar. It is stated in "Nemesis" that the Scimitar could pass within a ten feet of every vessel in SF (note the unit of measurement, which is inconsistent with the rest of the series) and they'd never know it. I assumed that to include the Nova-class vessels. I think it much more likely that the Nova was there to act as a warning system against OTHER ships that were moving with the Scimitar, and to provide early warning of other Romulan ships, like the two that actually showed up.

IMHO the nova is there as part of a balanced battle fleet. In the world's navies today there is usually the presence of an Electronics Wafare ship, lightly armed and protected by the rest of the fleet. Granted, it remains to be seen whether or not the nova could detect the scimitar, but at least it shows starfleet with a little sense and utilizing well rounded battlefleets.

Or it could be that those ships were at full operational status and on hand so they got volunteered. I am kind of surprised that the Prometheus was not included because it packs a big punch.

Death from the Sea wrote:Or it could be that those ships were at full operational status and on hand so they got volunteered. I am kind of surprised that the Prometheus was not included because it packs a big punch.

a whole lot of good that punch will do if it is on the other side of the quadrant.

Too bad they didn't have a Nebula with a sensor pod on hand.

Aya wrote:Too bad they didn't have a Nebula with a sensor pod on hand.

so whats the deal with those? are they like inter stellar AWACS systems?

Basically, yeah, lol.

Aya wrote:Too bad they didn't have a Nebula with a sensor pod on hand.

Indeed, but even if we saw a known Nebula listed we wouldn't know if it had a pod or not. Maybe the Nemesis battle should have involved the Federation Battlegroup finding and towing the Enterprise to saftey. Then at least we could get a look at the ships.

Alyeska wrote:

Aya wrote:Too bad they didn't have a Nebula with a sensor pod on hand.

Indeed, but even if we saw a known Nebula listed we wouldn't know if it had a pod or not. Maybe the Nemesis battle should have involved the Federation Battlegroup finding and towing the Enterprise to saftey. Then at least we could get a look at the ships.

Maybe it will on the DVD.

Incidentally, the fact that the Prometheus was not there is hardly surprising. It is one ship, after all, and it is a big galaxy.

I concur with the analysis that the Nova is part of a well-rounded battle group, and not necessarily there to try to detect the Scimitar.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Alyeska wrote:

Aya wrote:Too bad they didn't have a Nebula with a sensor pod on hand.

Indeed, but even if we saw a known Nebula listed we wouldn't know if it had a pod or not. Maybe the Nemesis battle should have involved the Federation Battlegroup finding and towing the Enterprise to saftey. Then at least we could get a look at the ships.

Maybe it will on the DVD.

Incidentally, the fact that the Prometheus was not there is hardly surprising. It is one ship, after all, and it is a big galaxy.

I concur with the analysis that the Nova is part of a well-rounded battle group, and not necessarily there to try to detect the Scimitar.

It was heavily implied that the Prometheus class has gone into production on an altered design. This is supported by a Prometheus showing up in End Game and not having seperated.

Personally I don't think the Scimitar was fighting full force against the E-E(mostly disruptor shots, not trying to accidently destroy the E-E or kill Picard), and I think it could easily take out that battle group if it was going full force. Lets say that it can fire only fire half of it's 27(14, round up) photon torps at one time, no spread, firing every 2 seconds. Thats still is 896 megatons every two seconds. And with nothing like the E-E's shielding on those ships(short of maybe the Galaxy with war modifications after losing that battle) The Intrepid-Nova-Execilors won't stand long against that kind of assualt, and the Galaxy can't take the full force of that thing with out anything other targets. Unless the Wood and Aires are Promethues's or a Sov, I think the Sci will butcher his way through those ships and take around 3 quarters of it's primary shielding.

anarchistbunny wrote:Personally I don't think the Scimitar was fighting full force against the E-E(mostly disruptor shots, not trying to accidently destroy the E-E or kill Picard), and I think it could easily take out that battle group if it was going full force. Lets say that it can fire only fire half of it's 27(14, round up) photon torps at one time, no spread, firing every 2 seconds. Thats still is 896 megatons every two seconds. And with nothing like the E-E's shielding on those ships(short of maybe the Galaxy with war modifications after losing that battle) The Intrepid-Nova-Execilors won't stand long against that kind of assualt, and the Galaxy can't take the full force of that thing with out anything other targets. Unless the Wood and Aires are Promethues's or a Sov, I think the Sci will butcher his way through those ships and take around 3 quarters of it's primary shielding.

The thing is if the battlegroup can target the Scimitar it can bring forward enough firepower to tear apart the Scimitar. The Scimitar has much more firepower then compared to its shields and armor. Sustained torpedo and phaser fire would cause seepage damage through the Scimitars shields and start knocking out its weapon emplacements. With something like a Defiant class they could manage to outmanuver most of the Scimitars gunners and get in a vulnerable position then just start blasting away with PPCs like there was no tomorow.

Let us not forget the cloak and the advantage of the surprise attack, on full on barrage from that thing is probly good enough to take down anything but the Galaxy, the Nova won't last long, and any hope of easily targeting it. The execilors probly can't take too much fire from the Sci, while the Scimitar is taking lucky phaser potshots and random torp hits.