Phase "cloak" shouldn't really have violated Fed/R

[Admiral_K]

Lets think about this logically, What does a phase "cloak" have in common with a real cloaking device? Sure you can't see a ship that is phase cloaked but that is because it is in an alternate dimension. Its primary purpose isn't to "hide a ship" but to move that ship into another dimension where it wouldn't be able to be damaged by normal means.

If you call it a dimension altering device then it doesn't viloate the Feds treaty now does it? So the feds piss away a device that would have GREATLY aided them in their fights against the borg, and the founders because of SEMANTICS!

[EmperorMing]

Or a "Holier than Thou" mentallity...

[Darth Servo]

The ship still exists in the normal universe. It still has a position in the normal universe. Hence the need to pass through the asteroid and not just automatically be zapped to another location.

Original intention of the device is irrelevant. It DOES hide a ship, therefore it is a violation of the treaty.

[neoolong]

The ship still exists in the normal universe. It still has a position in the normal universe. Hence the need to pass through the asteroid and not just automatically be zapped to another location.

Original intention of the device is irrelevant. It DOES hide a ship, therefore it is a violation of the treaty.

Uh, wouldn't painting a ship black help hid it in deep space. Does that mean that black paint is a violation of the treaty?

[Darth Servo]

Uh, wouldn't painting a ship black help hid it in deep space. Does that mean that black paint is a violation of the treaty?

A black ship would still be picked up by a ship's normal sensors. Thats the real point of cloaking devices. They need extremely elaborate sensor nets to find them (if they can detect them at all) and the phase cloak would certainly qualify under that definition.

[Admiral_K]

It is clearly not a cloaking device. It is a PHASING device. Its intention is NOT to hide the ship, but to move it out of the physical realm. The fact that you can't see it is merely a side effect.

[Luke Starkiller]

Erm, the guy that was in charge of testing(the admiral that shows up in 'Pegasus') specifically said that its purpose was to cloak the ship, and that the treaty of Algenon was a mistake.

[Kamakazie Sith]

It is clearly not a cloaking device. It is a PHASING device. Its intention is NOT to hide the ship, but to move it out of the physical realm. The fact that you can't see it is merely a side effect.

Regardless if it is a side effect or not, it still cloaks the ship. Thus it is in violation of the treaty.

[Admiral_K]

The point being, you could clearly argue that it is not a cloaking device.

A cloaking device works by masking signatures of engines, bending light and other emissions around the ship, and other little tricks to make the ship undetectable. A phase cloak does none of these things.
Part of the treaty said that the Federation wouldn't develop a cloaking device. Just because you can't see the ship doesn't make it a cloaking device. And merely because the device allows you to see them doesn't mean it is a cloaking device.

Look at it this way, ships can "hide" at certain points above polar ice caps or other places that screw with sensors. Does that mean they are using a "cloaking" device? The whole reason you can't see the ship is because ITS NOT REALLY THERE. IT is in an alternate "dimension" so to speak, one that can still see ours. The ship isn't actually hidden.


If a ship is inside an asteroid where it can't be detected due to the mineral content of the asteroid, is that ship then "cloaked".

You can't argue that "if I can't see a ship then it is a cloaking device". That is rediculous.

[Darth Servo]

It is clearly not a cloaking device. It is a PHASING device. Its intention is NOT to hide the ship, but to move it out of the physical realm. The fact that you can't see it is merely a side effect.

The fact that you can't detect it with sensors proves it IS a cloaking device regardless of what it was intended to be. It is called the phase CLOAK I believe and its capabilities fit the bill of a cloaking device: hiding the ship from sensors.

What more do you want?

A cloaking device works by masking signatures of engines, bending light and other emissions around the ship, and other little tricks to make the ship undetectable. A phase cloak does none of these things.

How the device does its job is irrelevant. Performance is what determines what it truly is.

Just because you can't see the ship doesn't make it a cloaking device.

ROTFLMAO. You can actually say that with a straight face? And what would you say IS the job of a cloaking device. Too prevent detection, IOW, the other guy can't see it. IOW, the phase cloak qualifies as a cloak.

Look at it this way, ships can "hide" at certain points above polar ice caps or other places that screw with sensors. Does that mean they are using a "cloaking" device?

A planet's north pole is NOT a ship based system.

The whole reason you can't see the ship is because ITS NOT REALLY THERE. IT is in an alternate "dimension" so to speak, one that can still see ours. The ship isn't actually hidden.

Prove this pile of BS. Where do they state that the ship enters another dimension, as opposed to simply being less interactive with the universe.

If a ship is inside an asteroid where it can't be detected due to the mineral content of the asteroid, is that ship then "cloaked".

Not a ship based system. The phase cloak was.

Asteroids and north poles offer very limited prottection from ships sensors since a starship can't exactly tug an asteroid or planet around with it. It CAN haul a phase cloak around with it. Thats all the difference you need to refute this ridiculous notion of yours.

You can't argue that "if I can't see a ship then it is a cloaking device". That is rediculous.

The examples you give to try and refute my statement are the only ridiculous things around here.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Admiral_K]

*sigh*

Your notion that "anything that makes it so I can't see a ship is a cloaking device" is rediculous.

If I were to describe the device as "something that shifts the ship out of our dimension, so that it can not be interacted by ships still in our dimension" I would be completely accurate. You can't see the ship because it ISNT THERE.

I was calling into question the fact that it is even called a cloaking device when it is completely different from the cloaking devices employed by the Romulans and Klingons. the word cloaking should never have been applied to it.

Arguing like this is pointless since we don't even know the exact wording of the treaty. I was more or less poking fun that if you don't call it a cloaking device, then the romulans really have no case.

[Darth Servo]

*sigh*
Your notion that "anything that makes it so I can't see a ship is a cloaking device" is rediculous.

No, your claiming that anything that doesn't work exactly like a Romulan cloaking device must not be a cloaking device is whats ridiculous.

If I were to describe the device as "something that shifts the ship out of our dimension, so that it can not be interacted by ships still in our dimension" I would be completely accurate. You can't see the ship because it ISNT THERE.

Except that all this blustering is completely irrelevant since you have provided ZERO evidence that the phase cloak actually shifts the ship out of our dimension.

I was calling into question the fact that it is even called a cloaking device when it is completely different from the cloaking devices employed by the Romulans and Klingons. the word cloaking should never have been applied to it.

Why. It can function as a cloaking device. It can make the ship invisible to ST sensors and be carried on board the ship. Therefore it fits the description and parameters of a cloaking device

Arguing like this is pointless since we don't even know the exact wording of the treaty. I was more or less poking fun that if you don't call it a cloaking device, then the romulans really have no case.

Its pointless because you don't have a case. Every "point" you've brought up has been completely irrelevant and in one case (moving the ship to another dimension) is totally unsupported.

[kojikun]

Why did the Federation agree to this treaty in the first place??

[Darth Wong]

Why did the Federation agree to this treaty in the first place??

They must have been facing defeat at the hands of the Romulans. No nation has ever signed such a grotesquely one-sided treaty unless they had no choice.

Of course, the alternative is that they're gibbering cretins, which we probably can't rule out either

[Keevan_Colton]

Why did the Federation agree to this treaty in the first place??

They must have been facing defeat at the hands of the Romulans. No nation has ever signed such a grotesquely one-sided treaty unless they had no choice.

Of course, the alternative is that they're gibbering cretins, which we probably can't rule out either

C'mon....this is a treaty who brought you "Admiral" Janeway...the Warpcore'o'doom and a million other idiotic notions.....gibbering cretins is the only logical choice based on thier track record.....

[neoolong]

Why did the Federation agree to this treaty in the first place??

They must have been facing defeat at the hands of the Romulans. No nation has ever signed such a grotesquely one-sided treaty unless they had no choice.

Of course, the alternative is that they're gibbering cretins, which we probably can't rule out either

Aren't you forgetting how much they gave away after the Cardassian War.

[Admiral_K]

Dear Darth Moron,

I am sorry you have a skull as thick as solid granite. Because mine is as soft as jello

I am sorry you can't use simple logic. Because I can't understand your complex logic

I am sorry you fail to comprehend the points I've so clearly laid out for you. Because it means I'm a complete idiot and am obviously wrong


I've offered zero evidence that it shifts you into another dimension? Well fine maybe "dimension" isn't the right word to use. How bout I use the trechnobabular term of phase.

The fact that you can't detect it with sensors proves it IS a cloaking device regardless of what it was intended to be. It is called the phase CLOAK I believe and its capabilities fit the bill of a cloaking device: hiding the ship from sensors.

What more do you want?

Just because you can't see it doesn't make it a "cloaking device". A ship traveling through hyperspace could pass by a fed ship and never be seen or detected. That doesn't mean that it is cloaked.

Except that all this blustering is completely irrelevant since you have provided ZERO evidence that the phase cloak actually shifts the ship out of our dimension

It shifts them out of phase so they can't interact with the normal realm of space. Think of this as some alternate form of subspace if you will. I would call it a parallel dimension. You can call it whatever the fuck you want. The fact that they can fly through solid matter, should give you a fucking clue that its not a mere "cloaking device".

How the device does its job is irrelevant. Performance is what determines what it truly is

Exactly my point. It doesn't HIDE A SHIP. It shifts it out of the continuuim. Even if you could see it you couldn't do anything to it. The reason you can't see it is because it doesn't exist as matter in the normal universe.

I've given many valid points. You keep arguing "it says its a cloaking device" even though it doesn't function like a cloaking device. NOTHING ABOUT IT is designed to mask the emissions of a ship, or hide it from sensors.


Let me try another way of getting through your wall of ignorance. If two romulan cloaked ships come upon each other, then they wouldn't see each other. But if two vessels with the phase cloak came upon each other they most certainly could see each other, and in fact would be able to fire upon each other because they would be in the SAME DIMENSION or PHASE or WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT TO CALL IT.

My evidence? How about The Next Phase where Geordi and Roe and the Romulan all got phased, and yet the Romulan was able to use his disruptor since it was phased with him.

And my last point, is we don't know what the terms of the treaty are. So you claiming that it is 100% a violation of it is rediculous. I was merely pointing out that you could easily NOT label it a cloaking device, and based on the wording of the treaty argue that it should be allowed for starfleet vessels.

[Dark Primus]

*snip*

Wow, someone has penis envy today.

[Darth Servo]

Dear Darth Moron,

Yes Admiral Crap for Brains?

I am sorry you have a skull as thick as solid granite.

My lack of acceptance of a totally unproven idea is hardly evidence that I'm thick skulled.

I am sorry you can't use simple logic.

I know logic when I see it and thus far you have provided any in this thread.

I am sorry you fail to comprehend the points I've so clearly laid out for you.

I understand them just fine. The part I have trouble with is the fact that you have failed to back up any of these claims and every example of a non-tech cloak (asteroid, planetary north pole) is unapplicable as a full blown cloak. With a cloaking device, the ship can attack anywhere it likes without being detected first. THAT is the purpose of a cloaking device and the phase cloak fits that description. The fact that it has other functions as well is irrelevant.

I've offered zero evidence that it shifts you into another dimension? Well fine maybe "dimension" isn't the right word to use. How bout I use the trechnobabular term of phase.

Doesn't matter. EVERYTHING in Trek uses "phase" so that term is meaningless. The cloak enables the ship to pass through certain forms of solid matter. It also prevents detection, therefore it is a cloaking device.

The fact that you can't detect it with sensors proves it IS a cloaking device regardless of what it was intended to be. It is called the phase CLOAK I believe and its capabilities fit the bill of a cloaking device: hiding the ship from sensors.

What more do you want?

Just because you can't see it doesn't make it a "cloaking device".

Only in your little bizzare fantasy world where if somthing doesn't function exactly like a Romulan cloak or has additional features then it can't be a cloaking device, even if it has same usage as a traditional cloak (cross the neutral zone and attack wherever you want w/o being detected).

A ship traveling through hyperspace could pass by a fed ship and never be seen or detected. That doesn't mean that it is cloaked.

Because Fed sensors aren't fast enough. Get fast enough sensors and the ship is detectable.

It shifts them out of phase so they can't interact with the normal realm of space.

No, it makes it so they can travel through certain forms of solid matter. That does NOT mean it leaves the realm of normal space.

Think of this as some alternate form of subspace if you will.

I would if there were any evidence to do so.

I would call it a parallel dimension.

You would call anything you don't understand a parallel dimension. There is ZERO evidence the ship actually leaves normal space. Get that through you thick skull.

You can call it whatever the fuck you want. The fact that they can fly through solid matter, should give you a fucking clue that its not a mere "cloaking device".

Strawman. I never claimed it was just a "mere" cloaking device. I agreed that it performs functions other than cloaking right from the start. That does NOT change the fact that it ALSO performs the function of a cloaking device.

Exactly my point. It doesn't HIDE A SHIP.

Yes it DOES. The phase cloaked ship is invisible to standard Trek sensors. Therefore it hides the ship. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

It shifts it out of the continuuim.

Define "continuum".

Even if you could see it you couldn't do anything to it.

Irrelevant. The ship is hidden from sensors, therefore its a cloaking device.

The reason you can't see it is because it doesn't exist as matter in the normal universe.

Bullshit. You have no evidence for this claim that phase cloaked matter doesn't exist in the normal universe. In fact since you invoked "The Next Phase" later, that episode proves that phased objects definitely ARE in the normal universe.

I've given many valid points.

Name one.

You keep arguing "it says its a cloaking device" even though it doesn't function like a cloaking device.

Strawman fallacy. I never based its capabilities solely on its name.

NOTHING ABOUT IT is designed to mask the emissions of a ship, or hide it from sensors.

Yet those things can't be detected so it obviously DOES mask them. A standard cloaking device doesn't fully mask those emmisions so you've just argued that a standard cloaking device ins't a cloaking device either.

Stop fussing about what you think the thing was intended to do and focus on what it obviously does do. You'll look a lot more intelligent. For the umpteenth time, the phase cloak DOES hide the ship.

Let me try another way of getting through your wall of ignorance.

Don't project your own mentality onto me. You refuse to admit that the thing performs the same function as a cloaking device simply because it also lets the ship travel through solid matter. If device #1 can do job 'A' and device #2 can do jobs 'A' and 'B' then device #2 is obviously serving the same role as device #1.

If two romulan cloaked ships come upon each other, then they wouldn't see each other. But if two vessels with the phase cloak came upon each other they most certainly could see each other, and in fact would be able to fire upon each other because they would be in the SAME DIMENSION or PHASE or WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT TO CALL IT.

My evidence? How about The Next Phase where Geordi and Roe and the Romulan all got phased, and yet the Romulan was able to use his disruptor since it was phased with him.

"The Next Phase" also proved that the individuals WERE in normal space since they could still breathe the unphased air. Those three individuals were all phase cloaked by the same event. You can't say that means two ships using different phase cloaks would be visible to each other, especially since "Pegasus" specifically states the need for specific "phasing rates" so presumably different ships with different rates would be invisible to each other.

And my last point, is we don't know what the terms of the treaty are. So you claiming that it is 100% a violation of it is rediculous. I was merely pointing out that you could easily NOT label it a cloaking device, and based on the wording of the treaty argue that it should be allowed for starfleet vessels.

Picard and company seemed to think the device was a direct violation of the treaty. I trust their knowledge of "the terms" of the treaty is better than yours. You can only use character incompetance when you have no other choice which is obviously not the case here.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

On the other hand, you could also say that it is just that Picard and company are too honest, and unaware of the euphemisms of the 20th century.

For instance, there is some kind of rule saying that aircraft carriers can't cross the Bosporus. The Soviets, unfortunately, had to build theirs in some place called Nikolayev Shipyard, which means they must pass the Bosporus.

What do they do? They rename it into "Tactical Aviation Cruiser" and all of a sudden, it is OK. But come on, let's face it, how is the Kuznetsov not a carrier? It takes off jets, it lands jets. It performs the functions of a carrier (including flagship functions.) It also does some work of a cruiser, of course, since Soviet carrie ... urr "tactical aviation cruisers" have plenty of firepower themselves.

It is probably a moral violation, but it does fit in to the "letter-of-the-law" and can get past on a technicality.

Similarily, I would think it possible for the Federation to develop an euphemism for a phase or even a full blown Romulan style cloak that would "sneak" it pass the treaty. Picard may not even know the precise terms of the treaty, only the generalities. Without knowing exactly what the treaty said, Picard would never know for sure whether the phase-cloak or any other cloak can sneak pass or not.

OK, evidence that Picard might only know the generalities. Try Episode 172, when apparently Nechayev had to tell Picard about the new treaty with the Cardassians. It might be possible the same would apply for the treaty with the cloak.

Come to think of it, which dolt signed that stupid treaty anyway? Unless they are really being creamed, there is no reason to arbitrarily and unilaterally destroy one whole potential arm of progress. Even if you don't intend a cloak fleet, building your own cloaking devices can easily allow you to see the finer engineering flaws inherent in such a device, and device counters, which would well be useful against other nations' cloaks with similar engineering limitations.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Why did the Federation agree to this treaty in the first place??

They must have been facing defeat at the hands of the Romulans. No nation has ever signed such a grotesquely one-sided treaty unless they had no choice.

Of course, the alternative is that they're gibbering cretins, which we probably can't rule out either

Aren't you forgetting how much they gave away after the Cardassian War.

Both sides gave away planets, and the Cardassians got some crappy under developed planets.

We didn't see what the UFP got, or the other geographic areas of those planets.....but that would be proving a negative.

The UFP got some planets, gave some away, and avoided a war.

The Cardassians saved face.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Admiral K, the fact of the matter is the phase cloak fits the tactical abilities of a cloaking device, it's other ability to phase through matter or make the best damn coffee in the galaxy is irrelevant.

All that matters is it's initial function that is a cloaking device.

[Lord Sander]

Look, the treaty most likely stipulated any onboard device used by the Federation that would hide a ship from Romulan sensors as being, regardless of what it actually is, a cloaking device in violation of the treaty. Thus, regardless of what the phasing device technically is, to the Romulans it's a cloaking device violating the treaty they imposed.. err, I mean agreed upon with the Federation.

[Darth Servo]

With this thread, I think Admiral_K is bordering on VI territory.