Soong-Type Android Questions

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-02-05 02:42pm

Question 1: How human was Data?

If you all recall Season 1 of TNG, the Data we've all become familiar with over the past 15 years didn't really materialize until the episode "Datalore." This is the episode that established Data as being emotionless and unable to use human verbal contractions. Up until this episode, Data did use contractions at least once -- note his line in Encounter At Farpoint, when Q enters the 22nd century courtroom, "At least we're familiar with the judge..." Data also exhibited a dramatic display of emotion and even humor while "drunk" in "The Naked Now." And in Nemesis, before he deactivated B-4, Data again exhibited a mixed display of tenderness and sadness, subdued though the display might have been.

Question 2: Am I mistaken in my recollection that B-4 also used a contraction and displayed emotion in Nemesis?

Question 3: Does any of you know what supposedly was done with Lore's body? Have the Trek creative (ha, yeah right) staff or any novelizations dealt with this subject?

Lord Sander · Post by **Lord Sander** » 2003-02-05 03:23pm

Lore had emotion and used contractions. B-4's model probably has greater similarity with Lore.

I believe Lore's body was dismantled.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2003-02-05 05:41pm

Ok, I can't prove this, but B-4 is Lore. Seriously. Data was the 5th android, Lore was the..... 4th!! B-4 is Lore's body. I know this was the intent (no cannon evidence

) of Logan, as he hinted it in the prologe to the novelization of Nemesis. It seems likely the Romulans got their hands on Lore's body and modified it.

By the way, I thought this would make a great enhancer to the film. Think about it, they beam up B-4, everything involving him is the same until the end. Then we learn the Romulans and Starfleet somehow missed part of Lore's personality. Enter the brother to brother fight! Data could have used Lore as the final step to being human- he can sacrafice himself for his friends. Lore cannot.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-02-05 05:47pm

What really cracked me up was, shortly after defeating Lore, Data used a contraction in the SAME SENTENCE when he said he couldn't use contratractions.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-02-05 07:28pm

The Silence and I wrote:Ok, I can't prove this, but B-4 is Lore. Seriously. Data was the 5th android, Lore was the..... 4th!! B-4 is Lore's body. I know this was the intent (no cannon evidence ) of Logan, as he hinted it in the prologe to the novelization of Nemesis. It seems likely the Romulans got their hands on Lore's body and modified it.

By the way, I thought this would make a great enhancer to the film. Think about it, they beam up B-4, everything involving him is the same until the end. Then we learn the Romulans and Starfleet somehow missed part of Lore's personality. Enter the brother to brother fight! Data could have used Lore as the final step to being human- he can sacrafice himself for his friends. Lore cannot.

Do you have a copy of that prologue? Borders doesn't have any copies of it in stock at the moment, and I'd like to read the quote you're referring to.

Another Data oddity: has anyone noticed that Data actually looks different after First Contact? I can't pinpoint what it is, but from Insurrection through Nemesis, Data looks different somehow...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-05 07:35pm

The Silence and I wrote:Ok, I can't prove this, but B-4 is Lore. Seriously. Data was the 5th android, Lore was the..... 4th!! B-4 is Lore's body. I know this was the intent (no cannon evidence ) of Logan, as he hinted it in the prologe to the novelization of Nemesis. It seems likely the Romulans got their hands on Lore's body and modified it.

By the way, I thought this would make a great enhancer to the film. Think about it, they beam up B-4, everything involving him is the same until the end. Then we learn the Romulans and Starfleet somehow missed part of Lore's personality. Enter the brother to brother fight! Data could have used Lore as the final step to being human- he can sacrafice himself for his friends. Lore cannot.

According to the movie, B-4's body was less advanced than Datas, as was his positronic matrix. Data was less advanced than Lore. They were two different androids.

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » 2003-02-05 07:41pm

Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:Another Data oddity: has anyone noticed that Data actually looks different after First Contact? I can't pinpoint what it is, but from Insurrection through Nemesis, Data looks different somehow...

It's the double chin. No, really.

Androids in ST are so lifelike that they get wrinkles and love-handles over time!

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-02-05 08:30pm

Data was NOT Lore! Prove that he was.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-02-05 08:31pm

Oops, I mean B-4 was not Lore.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-02-05 08:37pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:Ok, I can't prove this, but B-4 is Lore. Seriously. Data was the 5th android, Lore was the..... 4th!! B-4 is Lore's body. I know this was the intent (no cannon evidence ) of Logan, as he hinted it in the prologe to the novelization of Nemesis. It seems likely the Romulans got their hands on Lore's body and modified it.

By the way, I thought this would make a great enhancer to the film. Think about it, they beam up B-4, everything involving him is the same until the end. Then we learn the Romulans and Starfleet somehow missed part of Lore's personality. Enter the brother to brother fight! Data could have used Lore as the final step to being human- he can sacrafice himself for his friends. Lore cannot.
According to the movie, B-4's body was less advanced than Datas, as was his positronic matrix. Data was less advanced than Lore. They were two different androids.

Sorry, MoO, but I think you're off on that one. I distinctly recall LaForge stating that the internal mechanics were identical, but that the neural pathways were less sophisticated. You're right that this still indicates that it wasn't Lore, though.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2003-02-05 10:18pm

I know, I don't have cannon evidence, so I can't prove it. I also don't have the novel, I saw it at Barnes and Nobles and read through the prologe as it was written by Logan and I wanted to see what he had to say about the movie. He naver comes out and says it, but emphasizes
B-4. As a fan (it is sad but he actually knew far more about ST than Rick or Brent) he probably knew Data was the 5th and Lore the 4th. He also would have known that only five were built, and two worked. (Obviously he could have assumed Mrs. Soong was lying, forgot or didn't Know about earlier attempts. Or the Romulans may have been able to modify the neural pathways, or even the Feds could have done it. Then again, he could have mentioned that in the movie, but didn't.)

In the end, I can't prove it, it is not cannon, but it is nice to know that at least someone put Lore in the movie unofficially-sort of.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-02-06 12:38am

I'm sorry, Silence, but I just can't see it. The first problem with this idea is that even Data didn't understand Soong architecture well enough to construct a stable duplicate. It seems highly unlikely that the Romulans or the Feds could successfully alter Soong architecture to produce what we saw in B4.

The second problem with this idea is, even if they could do it, why would they? Why take an advanced AI and decrease its performance on purpose? It would seem extremely counterproductive. The only plausible reason to do this (in Lore's case) would be to delete any trace of personality or emotional identity, which brings us to the third problem:

Even if such had been their intent, it didn't work. B4 displays emotional responses and personality. It may be equivalent to that of a 2 year old, but there is definitely a personality there, and it is not Lore's personality. If this were Lore, artificially retarded in some way, it would still be sociopathic. B4 may be stupid by comparison to Data or Juliana Tainer Soong, but it is certainly not evil.

EDIT: To answer the argument about Lore being the 4th model... I think we can all agree that "B-4" is just alphanumeric word play, and probably not a model number. By the way, who named "B-4"? Somehow, I don't think it was Soong. What's the logic to naming it B4? I think I covered this in another thread, but it bears repeating -- I think B4, if it was named by Soong, was not activated by Soong. I think B4 had, up until he ran into Shinzon, a very lonely and confusing existence of being activated and deactivated, never being given time to learn and develop its neural net, and that Data and his "mother" were the only Soong androids who did not develop in this way. Even Lal developed in this way. Ugh, too many tangents. Must be about bedtime.