I just saw Nemesis

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-02-07 12:29am

Well a few days ago actually, and although I felt compeled to write it off as a typical wank-fest it wasn't that bad. Sure there were cheesey and cringe moments but what movie doesn't have this? Yes it did seem a little 'video-gamish', but on the whole it was an enjoyable bit of Sci-fi. I must, at this point, clarify that I came in with the minimalest amount of knowledge of the TNG era in ST. So there were a few moments where I was left feeling like an outsider to the in-jokes and personall relationships of the crew.

Having said that however, I didn't find it impossible to discern the realtionship of the characters and their past together. On a side not is Georgie getting really old?.

What I did enjoy about the movie was the difference in philosophy between the 'clone' characters. Picard and Shinzon, Data and B4 (not to be confused with Babylon 4). Picard had a lot of angst and thoughts on whether or not a perfect replica of one person/being should or should not behaive the same as the original. Data's more pragmatical stance (due to the behaivour of B4) would lead to emphatically argue the opposite. Cosmetic appearances aside, each were different.

It was a pointient moment at the end of the movie when B4 (who had been uploaded with all of Data's memories, and thus one would assume personality) still behaved radically different, until the humming of a certain song with Picard. It led to the question, who was wrong and who was right? I enjoyed this more than anything about the movie.

I know that most of us here have an automatic reponse, almost knee jerk reflex, to bag anything ST. Particularly anything that stems from B&B. But as an outsider, on a whole, I considered this movie to be one of the better TNG ST. I liked it better than FC, as I was more involved in the plot. Thankfully the techno-bable was kept to a minimum, and didn't clug the dialogue with the useless wank-fest that has saturated a lot of ST these days.

Having said that, just yesterday (riding a high wave of contempt from Nemesis), I decided to go out and borow the wrath of Kahn... No comparison

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-07 12:36am

That pretty much sums up my feelings. The movie was well done in that it was fun to watch and easy for non-fans to watch. It wasn't as "cool" as First Contact, but I enjoyed watching it more. Sure, its not the equal to TWOK or UC, but its still fun to watch. Kinda like TVH, not serious but fun and well made.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-07 12:42am

Alyeska wrote:That pretty much sums up my feelings. The movie was well done in that it was fun to watch and easy for non-fans to watch.

You know, that might have been my problem with it, and with all of modern Trek. I think they're trying too hard to get into the minds of non-Trekkies, and so I think that they neglect their original fan base. While I don't claim that this is terrible, I do think that the two goals are almost never mutually attainable, and I think that the combination is seriously eroding both groups of fans.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-02-07 12:45am

You know, for some reason I really hated FC. I can't remember why, I just remembered walking out of the cinema hating (in fact that's why I never whatched Insurection). I wouldn't go so far as to say Nemesis was 'well done', but I do believe that it wasn't shoved down the veiwers eyes which counts for a lot in my opinion. On the other hand, maybe it was well done, all I know is that I really loved the complexity of the Data/Picard subplot. It really helped to give the movie a more 'human' quality to it rather than a sci-fi trash fest.

But when comparing it to TWoK, it really was weak. But I did enjoy Nemesis, won't be watching it again any time soon, but I didn't think it totally blew.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-02-07 02:09am

Alyeska, did you just rate Undiscovered Country with TWOK????
GAAHHH! I HATED that flick! It was the beginning of the end AFAIC. It's redeeming virtues were:

The battle with the Bird of Prey and Enterprise and Excelsior.
Spock mind fucking that little traitor bitch.
Kick ass flyby of Gorkon's Kt'inga.

And that's it! The rest was abrasive to my sensibilties. Pink Klingon blood!....*walks away mumbling furiously and gesticulating wildly*

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-02-07 04:20am

Frank Hipper wrote:Alyeska, did you just rate Undiscovered Country with TWOK????
GAAHHH! I HATED that flick! It was the beginning of the end AFAIC. It's redeeming virtues were:

The battle with the Bird of Prey and Enterprise and Excelsior.
Spock mind fucking that little traitor bitch.
Kick ass flyby of Gorkon's Kt'inga.

And that's it! The rest was abrasive to my sensibilties. Pink Klingon blood!....*walks away mumbling furiously and gesticulating wildly*

You dare to mock The Undiscovered Country? That is the best ST film made!

Burn the infidel!

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-07 10:19am

Frank Hipper wrote:Alyeska, did you just rate Undiscovered Country with TWOK????
GAAHHH! I HATED that flick! It was the beginning of the end AFAIC. It's redeeming virtues were:

The battle with the Bird of Prey and Enterprise and Excelsior.
Spock mind fucking that little traitor bitch.
Kick ass flyby of Gorkon's Kt'inga.

And that's it! The rest was abrasive to my sensibilties. Pink Klingon blood!....*walks away mumbling furiously and gesticulating wildly*

The Undiscovered Country is the most commonly rated #2 movie in Star Trek. Even with that, even the TWOK fans admit that TUC has the best plot with the most character change and is a very well done movie. TUC and TWOK are the two best Star Trek movies period.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-07 02:52pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Alyeska, did you just rate Undiscovered Country with TWOK????
GAAHHH! I HATED that flick! It was the beginning of the end AFAIC. It's redeeming virtues were:

The battle with the Bird of Prey and Enterprise and Excelsior.
Spock mind fucking that little traitor bitch.
Kick ass flyby of Gorkon's Kt'inga.

And that's it! The rest was abrasive to my sensibilties. Pink Klingon blood!....*walks away mumbling furiously and gesticulating wildly*

What's wrong with pink blood? Lobsters have blue blood. How can you not like lobsters?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-07 03:56pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:Alyeska, did you just rate Undiscovered Country with TWOK????
GAAHHH! I HATED that flick! It was the beginning of the end AFAIC. It's redeeming virtues were:

The battle with the Bird of Prey and Enterprise and Excelsior.
Spock mind fucking that little traitor bitch.
Kick ass flyby of Gorkon's Kt'inga.

And that's it! The rest was abrasive to my sensibilties. Pink Klingon blood!....*walks away mumbling furiously and gesticulating wildly*
What's wrong with pink blood? Lobsters have blue blood. How can you not like lobsters?

I thought the floating blood was just fine. Why is green Vulcan blood OK but pink/lavender Klingon blood bad?

At least they made it look like it really was zero-g. That was well done and fans can see what fluid acts like in zero-g and a certain webpage author *coughGKcough* can't deny it.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-02-08 01:52am

Well, I guess I'm in conflict with most fans when it comes to UC then.
But c'mon people, "Hard right rudder?", the entire penal colony sequence?, "the thing's got to have an exhaust pipe"? Those don't diminish the flick in your eyes just a little?

(edit) Oh, and the deal with Klingon blood being pink is the obvious symbolism implied. And don't you think that they'd be trained better for zero-G than that? I mean c'mon, they just float around with stupid looks on their faces!

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-08 01:56am

I like TUC. I even thought it was better than WoK, though I will freely admit that its battles were weaker.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-02-08 02:03am

Frank Hipper wrote: (edit) Oh, and the deal with Klingon blood being pink is the obvious symbolism implied.

What symbolism is that?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-02-08 02:23am

Howedar wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote: (edit) Oh, and the deal with Klingon blood being pink is the obvious symbolism implied.
What symbolism is that?

What stigma is attached to the color pink?
When that movie came out they were already sissifying the Klingons in TNG, what better than to provide visual aids as well?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-02-08 02:45am

Frank Hipper wrote:Well, I guess I'm in conflict with most fans when it comes to UC then.
But c'mon people, "Hard right rudder?", the entire penal colony sequence?, "the thing's got to have an exhaust pipe"? Those don't diminish the flick in your eyes just a little?

I don't remember "Hard right rudder". Kirk says "Right standard rudder... bring us alongside" when they first meet the Klingon cruiser. It adds a nautical feel to it (which is pretty clear in both the Meyer films) and it's not too implausible; "rudder" could just be a way of saying "fire the manuevering thrusters". Or, the "rudder" could have been a colloquial term for some device that allows ST vessels to make turns like they do in space.

I thought the penal colony sequence added a little depth to the ST universe. It was a brutal place, not at all like the "sanitized" environments that ST has so often been criticized for.

"Got to have an exhaust pipe" isn't bad either; it's better than couching it in technobabble.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-02-08 03:30am

I don't remember "Hard right rudder". Kirk says "Right standard rudder... bring us alongside" when they first meet the Klingon cruiser. It adds a nautical feel to it (which is pretty clear in both the Meyer films) and it's not too implausible; "rudder" could just be a way of saying "fire the manuevering thrusters". Or, the "rudder" could have been a colloquial term for some device that allows ST vessels to make turns like they do in space.

Why is it that's the only time we hear it, then? Starships don't have rudders, and of all the time Kirk's given manouvering orders we hear rudder mentioned only in this flick. I almost rasberried the screen in the theater when I saw that.

I thought the penal colony sequence added a little depth to the ST universe. It was a brutal place, not at all like the "sanitized" environments that ST has so often been criticized for.

The fact that it gave depth to the ST universe, I happily concede.
The fact that it introduced new depths to poorly executed film making, I will never budge on.

"Got to have an exhaust pipe" isn't bad either; it's better than couching it in technobabble.

These people are confounded by twentieth century technology repeatedly, the fact that "exhaust pipe" remains in the vernacular stretches my suspension of disbelief-due to past episodes and films.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-02-08 04:40am

The scene which made me groan was the one in which Uhura and crew manage to bluff their way across the Klingon border speaking pidgin-Klingon with the aid of leather-bound books?!?! Don't they have a phonetic Klingon/English dictionary in the computer they can call up on screen?

Or better yet, wouldn't it have been more logical for the Enterprise to have a Klingon language expert among the crew, considering how useful such a person would be for monitoring Klingon communications? And wouldn't it have been logical if said Klingon language expert was none other than the ship's communications officer? Namely, Commander Uhura?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-02-08 05:08am

Patrick Degan wrote:The scene which made me groan was the one in which Uhura and crew manage to bluff their way across the Klingon border speaking pidgin-Klingon with the aid of leather-bound books?!?! Don't they have a phonetic Klingon/English dictionary in the computer they can call up on screen?

Or better yet, wouldn't it have been more logical for the Enterprise to have a Klingon language expert among the crew, considering how useful such a person would be for monitoring Klingon communications? And wouldn't it have been logical if said Klingon language expert was none other than the ship's communications officer? Namely, Commander Uhura?

Thank you. I did enjoy "we am thy freighter", but the books were a kick in the nuts.

Cyborg Stan · Post by **Cyborg Stan** » 2003-02-08 07:16am

There's nothing wrong with pink. Things like strawberry milkshake, hippy-tie-dye t-shirts, and Pepto Bismo all are pink.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-02-08 04:26pm

They said the universal translator would be recognized. The novelization has the better (albeit non-canon) rationalization that the language banks were sabotaged by the conspirators.

Why is it that's the only time we hear it, then? Starships don't have rudders, and of all the time Kirk's given manouvering orders we hear rudder mentioned only in this flick. I almost rasberried the screen in the theater when I saw that.

I don't know why. It's the director at work. He didn't really care so much about what was seen in the past as he did about what he wanted to see.

Personally, I liked what I saw.

The fact that it introduced new depths to poorly executed film making, I will never budge on.

These people are confounded by twentieth century technology repeatedly, the fact that "exhaust pipe" remains in the vernacular stretches my suspension of disbelief-due to past episodes and films.

Cry me a river.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-08 04:32pm

Cyborg Stan wrote:There's nothing wrong with pink. Things like strawberry milkshake, hippy-tie-dye t-shirts, and Pepto Bismo all are pink.

lol. You can't forget Pepto Bismal.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-08 04:48pm

Alyeska wrote:The Undiscovered Country is the most commonly rated #2 movie in Star Trek. Even with that, even the TWOK fans admit that TUC has the best plot with the most character change and is a very well done movie. TUC and TWOK are the two best Star Trek movies period.

I'd have to agree. Although, for pure entertainment value, TVH was just very well-written and funny. "Double dumbass on you" still makes me laugh to this day. I tend not to rate it with the rest of the Star Trek films though, because I think it was a different kind of movie.

Between TWOK and TUC, it's a toss-up for me. I really love them both. Having Montalbon and Shatner, the two biggest hams in Hollywood, in the same movie made TWOK great (although you'll notice that they never were physically on the same set). TUC had excellent character development and a good plot (and Kim Catrall is always a plus

), and I loved the ending scene ("Second star to the right ... and straight on till morning").

Did anyone else notice that, in TUC, the recording of Kirk's personal log at his trial wasn't the same as the line of dialogue? In the scene where he records the log, he says, "I've never trusted Klingons, and I never will. I could never forgive them for the death of my boy." In the court room, the recording says, "I've never trusted Klingons, and I never will. I have never been able to forgive them for the death of my boy."

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-08 04:55pm

Durandal wrote:I'd have to agree. Although, for pure entertainment value, TVH was just very well-written and funny. "Double dumbass on you" still makes me laugh to this day. I tend not to rate it with the rest of the Star Trek films though, because I think it was a different kind of movie.

Agreed for sure. TVH was very fun to watch. I can watch that movie more frequently then any other because of it being a comedy movie. At the same time, because its a comedy (and in many ways not as serious), I can't rank it up there with the other Trek movies.

Between TWOK and TUC, it's a toss-up for me. I really love them both. Having Montalbon and Shatner, the two biggest hams in Hollywood, in the same movie made TWOK great (although you'll notice that they never were physically on the same set). TUC had excellent character development and a good plot (and Kim Catrall is always a plus ), and I loved the ending scene ("Second star to the right ... and straight on till morning").

Once again, fully agreed. Both movies were very well made. Compelling plots, indepth character development, well done and realistic bad guys, superb conflicts. The atmosphere of both movies was absolutely perfect.

Did anyone else notice that, in TUC, the recording of Kirk's personal log at his trial wasn't the same as the line of dialogue? In the scene where he records the log, he says, "I've never trusted Klingons, and I never will. I could never forgive them for the death of my boy." In the court room, the recording says, "I've never trusted Klingons, and I never will. I have never been able to forgive them for the death of my boy."

Thats interesting. Never noticed it. Though it doesn't surprise me. There are typically minor mistakes like this in most Trek movies.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-02-08 07:20pm

In the commentaries for TWOK, Meyer reveals that the question most often asked of him about the movie was "Was Ricardo Montalban's chest real?" The answer, of course, being yes; what you see on screen is all natural.

Got to admit, he had a nice set of mantits there.

Baron Mordo · Post by **Baron Mordo** » 2003-02-09 02:05am

The purpose of pink klingon blood was to avoid an R-rating. What I don't get is why, in subsequent series, their blood is red.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2003-02-09 06:24pm

I liked how Nemesis was somehow fresh. It wasn't tied down by attempts to keep it in line with the past, which really is impossible by now. Data/B-4 and Picard/Shinzon were clearly the highlight of the movie, offering serious questions and a real subplot. At the same time the movie was, well, funny. It made me laugh, it allowed the actors to have fun after 15 or so years, and this showed. And then, of course, it has the E-E maneuvering like the Defiant (well, not quite, but a leap and a bound better than anything the E-D ever did), firing from multiple banks at the same time, and pumping out torpedos faster than small fleets in DS9!!

It had flaws, and I am really upset when I think about how much more the movie could have been, would have been, if time issues didn't exist, but I rate it better than any of the TNG movies. I would rate it similar to ST-TVH, and (braces himself) better than SW-AOTC. I had heard Logan wrote an entire subplot involving Worf and the Romulans, finally reslving his issue, but had to scrape it to save time.

Oh, well, it was still good.