StarDestroyer.Net BBS

deathmatch, three rounds

round 1 is hand to hand combat, no restrictions on Odo's shapeshifting

in round 2 each receive a sidearm, assume its a federation hand phaser for Data and the Bajoran equivalent for Odo

round 3 is a quake style battle aboard an abandoned space station where each competeitor is given a tricorder. they must seek out weapons cache's and try to find and kill their opponent.

Data would tear a Odo a new one in a Quake style arena. Also, his positronic brain would have no problem coming up with a strategy to take out Odo.

Don't really know about round 1, but since Data would win rounds 2 and 3 he'd take the tournament.

Well, considering that Data was once taken out by a man with a metal rod, I would have to go with Odo in the first round. He could envelop Data in fluid state so he can't use his strength, enter Data's insides, and expand. Poof! Bye bye Data.

Darth Fanboy wrote: round 1 is hand to hand combat, no restrictions on Odo's shapeshifting

It seems likely that Odo would be essentially immune to hth damage. Data, on the other hand, has been damaged by people of ordinary strength. Odo could conceivably take the form of a very strong creature, so I don't see how Data can be expected to win this.

Darth Fanboy wrote: in round 2 each receive a sidearm, assume its a federation hand phaser for Data and the Bajoran equivalent for Odo

We've seen that the Founders can withstand multiple hits from typical Star Trek weapons without dying, although a phaser cranked all the way to its maximum setting should do the job. Unless this is an "Old West Showdown" type of confrontation, Odo could also disguise himself as something innocuous (keeping the weapon inside the shape he assumed) until Data was in a vulnerable position, and then fire. Again, Odo seems to have the advantage.

Darth Fanboy wrote: round 3 is a quake style battle aboard an abandoned space station where each competeitor is given a tricorder. they must seek out weapons cache's and try to find and kill their opponent.

Odo still rules. He can use air ducts and other tiny spaces to maneuver safely around the ship, while Data will have to stay in rooms, halls, and corridors. He could disguise himself as nearly anything and lie in ambush; and Founders are known to be capable of fooling tricorders, so that won't help Data find him.

Ted C wrote:It seems likely that Odo would be essentially immune to hth damage.

Why? It must require work for him to shapeshift; how do we know that forced, violent shapeshifting would not injure him or wear him out?

Data, on the other hand, has been damaged by people of ordinary strength. Odo could conceivably take the form of a very strong creature, so I don't see how Data can be expected to win this.

When has Odo ever demonstrated super-strength? The ability to make yourself look like a monster does not necessarily impart the monster's strength. Odo would win this fight only because in close quarters he could probably morph around to reach Data's off-switch, not because he's immune to physical damage or capable of super-strength.

We've seen that the Founders can withstand multiple hits from typical Star Trek weapons without dying, although a phaser cranked all the way to its maximum setting should do the job. Unless this is an "Old West Showdown" type of confrontation, Odo could also disguise himself as something innocuous (keeping the weapon inside the shape he assumed) until Data was in a vulnerable position, and then fire. Again, Odo seems to have the advantage.

Since the tricorder will pick up the weapon even if it's too shitty to pick up Odo himself, I don't see how this will work.

Odo still rules. He can use air ducts and other tiny spaces to maneuver safely around the ship, while Data will have to stay in rooms, halls, and corridors. He could disguise himself as nearly anything and lie in ambush; and Founders are known to be capable of fooling tricorders, so that won't help Data find him.

See above.

Darth Wong wrote:When has Odo ever demonstrated super-strength? The ability to make yourself look like a monster does not necessarily impart the monster's strength. Odo would win this fight only because in close quarters he could probably morph around to reach Data's off-switch, not because he's immune to physical damage or capable of super-strength.

We have seen cases where shapeshifters morph into birds and fly around. Just looking like a bird would not be sufficient enought to enable them to fly(to be able to fly you would need hollow bones and sufficient muscle strength/body weight). Also, the size of a a bird would be different from a shapeshifter in humanoid form(He could be more dense to compensate but that would make his flight capability improbable).

Also there is a case in the episode "The circle" in where he changes into a trip string and trips some Bajoran soldiers. In which when the soldiers are tripped by the stringy part of the device, the bases to the sides of the devices were pulled by thrust of the soldiers legs when they were tripped. This shows that he can vary his mass to some degree.
(Edit: Since if he were the same mass as he was in his humanoid form, the bases would not have moved as much because of the thrust of a leg).

We can reasonably assume that he can change his size and mass at will, which means that he could probably emulate a monster or similar things. Of course there would be limits but that is unknown (maybe skill or experience in shapshifting ?).

Edit : One thing is that we have never seen him shape into larger or more massive objects. Maybe he cannot vary his mass and just drops some liquid away when he morphs into smaller objects. But since I don't recall seeing him ooze some liquid away, it would seem that he can actually vary his mass(if only into lighter masses).

Darth Wong wrote: Why? It must require work for him to shapeshift; how do we know that forced, violent shapeshifting would not injure him or wear him out?

I stand corrected. Changing form is certainly going to be work on Odo's part. Perhaps I should have said that Odo would apparently be resistant to physical harm, since he lacks most of the usual vulnerable organs of a humanoid, and he can change form to repair any damage he does sustain.

I think it might be possible for Odo to fight the combat in an essentially fluid form, though, which would be highly resistant to damage in the first place.

In DS9's "The Alternate", Odo transformed into something large and fairly amorphous, which at least appeared to be extremely strong.

Darth Wong wrote: When has Odo ever demonstrated super-strength? The ability to make yourself look like a monster does not necessarily impart the monster's strength. Odo would win this fight only because in close quarters he could probably morph around to reach Data's off-switch, not because he's immune to physical damage or capable of super-strength.

Point taken. Odo has certainly demonstrated the ability to change his size, but I cannot confirm his ability to increase his physical strength.

I agree whole-heartedly with your conclusion that Odo could easily out-maneuver Data in HTH combat if he so chose.

Darth Wong wrote: Since the tricorder will pick up the weapon even if it's too shitty to pick up Odo himself, I don't see how this will work.

OK, this is fairly anecdotal, too, but Founders seem to mimic the properties of objects they imitate to a high degree. For instance, a Founder can mimic a human form well enough to fool a tricorder. Whether he could assume a form that would be essentially impenetrable to tricorder signals and successfully mimic those physical properties is an untested hypothesis.

j1j2j3 wrote: We can reasonably assume that he can change his size and mass at will, which means that he could probably emulate a monster or similar things. Of course there would be limits but that is unknown (maybe skill or experience in shapshifting ?).

Assuming that Odo could change his mass would present a horrendous scientific problem; he would need to be able to easily convert mass into energy, and vice versa. That or he would have to be able to do something equally inane, like put unused portions of his mass into subspace or some similar silliness. Conservation of matter is a common problem with shape-changing aliens.

Ted C wrote:Assuming that Odo could change his mass would present a horrendous scientific problem; he would need to be able to easily convert mass into energy, and vice versa. That or he would have to be able to do something equally inane, like put unused portions of his mass into subspace or some similar silliness. Conservation of matter is a common problem with shape-changing aliens.

But since we do not see any shapeshifters oozing leftover mass somewhere, we would have to reasonably conclude that they can vary their mass(as shown in the tripping device scene).

Of course, you are correct that this is a horrendous scientific problem and so forth, but since when did ST start make scientific sense?

So it would seem that Odo can "magically" vary his mass as shown by onscreen events.

So it would seem that Odo can "magically" vary his mass as shown by onscreen events.

Just another example of Trek writers ignoring science unless he does let some fluid scurry into a corner or something.

j1j2j3 wrote:

Ted C wrote:Assuming that Odo could change his mass would present a horrendous scientific problem; he would need to be able to easily convert mass into energy, and vice versa. That or he would have to be able to do something equally inane, like put unused portions of his mass into subspace or some similar silliness. Conservation of matter is a common problem with shape-changing aliens.

But since we do not see any shapeshifters oozing leftover mass somewhere, we would have to reasonably conclude that they can vary their mass(as shown in the tripping device scene).

Star Trek ships can do the same thing, but only DOWN, not UP (they can submerge parts of themselves in the plot device known as subspace, but they can't arbitrarily make themselves MORE massive).

j1j2j3 wrote: But since we do not see any shapeshifters oozing leftover mass somewhere, we would have to reasonably conclude that they can vary their mass(as shown in the tripping device scene).

It would be nice if we could simply assume that they alter their density, not their mass. Unfortunately, the fact that they can transform into birds capable of flight kills that idea.

I suppose it's possible that they can assimilate material from their surroundings to increase their mass when needed, possibly by absorbing gases from the atmosphere and combining them into suitable liquids. Of course, a Founder suddenly changing mass like that would presumably create a noticeable atmospheric disturbance in the process, so that idea probably doesn't work well, either.

Odo could turn into some kind of powerful animal or something of the sort and rip Data a new hole.

Admiral Johnason wrote:Odo could turn into some kind of powerful animal or something of the sort and rip Data a new hole.

Mike has already been jumping up and down on me for that idea; you should read the thread a bit before chiming in.

Does being able to turn into fire affect anything we know about a shapeshifter's makeup?

Odo may have an advantage due to shapshifting abilities but he cannot match Data in sheer speed.

In the episode where Data created Lal you do not see but you get his speed desribed to you. The admiral who was in the room with him said that Data moved so quickly that his hands were a blur.

I don't care what Odo can do, if Data can move himself that quickly then he will litterally tear into Odo before Odo knows the fight has begun.

DocMoriartty wrote:Odo may have an advantage due to shapshifting abilities but he cannot match Data in sheer speed.

In the episode where Data created Lal you do not see but you get his speed desribed to you. The admiral who was in the room with him said that Data moved so quickly that his hands were a blur.

I don't care what Odo can do, if Data can move himself that quickly then he will litterally tear into Odo before Odo knows the fight has begun.

Is that just his hands, or his whole body? Even if his hands can move that quickly, he may not be able to run that fast.

DocMoriartty wrote:Odo may have an advantage due to shapshifting abilities but he cannot match Data in sheer speed.

In the episode where Data created Lal you do not see but you get his speed desribed to you. The admiral who was in the room with him said that Data moved so quickly that his hands were a blur.

I don't care what Odo can do, if Data can move himself that quickly then he will litterally tear into Odo before Odo knows the fight has begun.

Unfortunately, Data has never demonstrated any ability to use this kind of speed in combat, despite many opportunities. It would have been particularly useful against the Borg on several occasions (since they can apparently rival Data in strength, but have never demonstrated superhuman speed).

Data is obviously capable of making precise hand movements at superhuman speed, but moving at such speeds with his whole body in a combat situation seems to be beyond him.

Perhaps Data could shock Odo with some of his body's electricity and fry Odo with out hurting himself.

Admiral Johnason wrote:Perhaps Data could shock Odo with some of his body's electricity and fry Odo with out hurting himself.

When has he ever shown his ability?

Also, Odo could turn into fire (if he's learned how) like Laas did in that episode and burn data, he could be like a fire elemental. He can also turn into working electronic devices like computers like he did in Admiral Laeton's office and a tricorder couldn't tell the difference, so he could ambush him. How would Data even damage him without an energy weapon? Also, I can pull it up Ron Moore said that Odo's limitation in that he must go back to his bucket to rest is unique to him, and the founders don't have this "handicap" It may be something he can overcome with time. He also said that Odo communicator when he shapeshifts goes into a portion of subspace and he may be able to do the same with a weapon making it undetectable

Shrykull wrote:Also, Odo could turn into fire (if he's learned how) like Laas did in that episode and burn data, he could be like a fire elemental. He can also turn into working electronic devices like computers like he did in Admiral Laeton's office and a tricorder couldn't tell the difference, so he could ambush him. How would Data even damage him without an energy weapon? Also, I can pull it up Ron Moore said that Odo's limitation in that he must go back to his bucket to rest is unique to him, and the founders don't have this "handicap" It may be something he can overcome with time. He also said that Odo communicator when he shapeshifts goes into a portion of subspace and he may be able to do the same with a weapon making it undetectable

WTF? Know Changelings can shift stuff into subspace? What can't they do?

Data puts up a picture of Kira nude and Odo is too distracted to fight. Data wins in < 1 minute.

Odo does have some degree of superstrength. In the episode where Kira first gets together with Shakaar, Odo goes berserk in his quarters and smashes stuff, including IIRC computer consoles.

In reference to Odo becoming more massive: the first time we see the shapeshifter Laas, he is actually some kind of organic starship AT WARP. Laas also changes into a cloud of fog on the entire Promenade, kills a Klingon by extending a blade-arm through his heart a la T-1000, and turns into fire.

Odo should be able to overwhelm Data easily in the first match. In the second and third matches, he could drop the phaser or other weapon and go stealth, overwhelming Data physically again. (This would be in character as Odo has never found it necessary to fire a phaser.) Though if he is required to use the phaser as part of the scenario, Data should win.

Eframepilot wrote:Odo does have some degree of superstrength. In the episode where Kira first gets together with Shakaar, Odo goes berserk in his quarters and smashes stuff, including IIRC computer consoles.

Try putting your foot through a computer console, and you just might find that you can smash it too. I wouldn't use that as proof of superhuman strength.

In reference to Odo becoming more massive: the first time we see the shapeshifter Laas, he is actually some kind of organic starship AT WARP. Laas also changes into a cloud of fog on the entire Promenade, kills a Klingon by extending a blade-arm through his heart a la T-1000, and turns into fire.

Is this "Laas" shapeshifter one of Odo's species? Why don't the rest of them pull these kinds of tricks? I never saw this episode.

Odo should be able to overwhelm Data easily in the first match. In the second and third matches, he could drop the phaser or other weapon and go stealth, overwhelming Data physically again. (This would be in character as Odo has never found it necessary to fire a phaser.) Though if he is required to use the phaser as part of the scenario, Data should win.

And to think a bunch of Klingons easily killed the shapeshifter that was posing as General Martok. To hear you talk, a shapeshifter is near-godlike