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Taking a look at Q Who. Enjoy.

Video

Woo! Great stuff.

Your conclusion is something I think even the Trek writers either never thought of or some poor soul truly meant it to be, somewhere...somehow. Nonetheless it gives the entire Borg/Picard vendetta a wonderful angle.

All in all, I enjoyed that you mentioned the DeLancie change with that particular piece of dialogue.

Yeah, it's pretty sad when you can look back and see compelling patterns or developments that you're 99% sure the writers didn't intend and never even noticed.

This was an excellent TNG episode and I'd agree a lot of that was because of how well Delance and Stewart played off against each other. I'm slightly surprised that you didn't comment on Q's final words to Picard and just how pointed they were, as well as Picard, somewhat humbled, admitting to Guinen that Q perhaps gave Starfleet a much needed kick in its complacency...

But regardless, it was cool. I think we saw that Sonya character at least twice more, once in the episode with the Packlards, once in another episode...but I could be wrong about that.

This one was definitely one of the season 2 standouts and especially for John DeLancie's performance as Q. The whole perception of the character changes with this episode: from troublemaker to teacher, and in this instance handing out a very brutal lesson our Starfleet heroes frankly weren't prepared to learn: "It's not SAFE out there." The real golden moment comes when, in response to Picard's plea for Q to tell him that the deaths of eighteen of his crew is just an illusion, Q simply says, "Oh, no. This is as real as your so-called life gets" and then calmly vanishes.

The scene in the briefing room with Q explaining the Borg is in this segment of the episode. In just a few lines of dialogue, the menace of this new threat is clearly and effectively outlined by DeLancie's understated monologue: "The Borg is the ultimate user. They are unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced. They're not interested in political conquest, wealth or power as you know it. They're simply interested in your ship and it's technology. They've identified it as something they can consume." This was an enemy you'd have to fight until one or the other was exterminated.

This really was the high-water mark for the Borg. From BOBW2, it was a relentlessly downhill slide into complete mediocrity.

What's interesting is the new take on Q that begins with this episode. Except for the odd-man-out third season entry "Deja Q", Q is more or less showing up to teach Picard lessons and it's implied that he is acting on behalf of the Continuum in doing so (and outright seen to be on a mission from his superiors in "True Q"). Take "Deja Q" out of the mix, and you've got an unbroken line of Q stories from this one which culminates with "All Good Things" in which Picard takes that last step onto a new plateau, taking a first look "at the uncharted possibilities of human existence" —which was where Q was leading him all along.

Very good work Sonnenburg. I loved your commentary on Q, and I loved your comments about Worf. I look forward to seeing your review on BOBW and All Good Things.

Yes, Q definitely comes across as more dark in this episode, which is a good thing IMO.

Incidently, his trick of just snapping his fingers and flinging the Enterprise seven thousand lightyears in about eleven seconds translates to well over twenty billion times faster than C.

I'm surprised you didn't make any jokes about Total Recall - the actress who plays Ensign Gomez was the three-breasted prostitute.

Interesting about the toning down of the character (whether by deLancie or direction), I always assumed that the dark trickster/teacher figure was intentional. I love Q in this and in the end of All Good Things, especially the latter, the final conversation with Picard remains one of my favourite scenes of TNG for the interaction between the two actors. I always felt pleased that I missed out on Voyager's Q episodes, so with the exception of the DS9 one, Q is largely unspoiled for me.

Ghost Rider wrote:Your conclusion is something I think even the Trek writers either never thought of or some poor soul truly meant it to be, somewhere...somehow. Nonetheless it gives the entire Borg/Picard vendetta a wonderful angle.

I don't know if it was intended or not, but likely the fact that the early Borg episodes were written by people who did believe in Roddenberry's utopian stuff (Hurley, possibly Piller as well) and then someone like Ron Moore (who never seemed to subscribe to any of Roddenberry's views) co-writing First Contact was responsible for this little arc.

A lot of the credit for this episode is probably deserved by the director, Rob Bowman, who by all indications forced the story into a more serious, downplayed mode than was originally intended. Not surprisingly, once Berman took over Bowman only showed up on the series once more, and that was apparently because no-one else wanted to do a certain FX-heavy episode.

DaveJB wrote:Ron Moore (who never seemed to subscribe to any of Roddenberry's views)

Ron Moore wasn't up on the vision? Wow! You'd never realise it looking at his latest work.

It is interesting to note that by doing this Q not only saved the Federation from the Borg.
Without this intervention, Wolf 359 would never have occured and Benjamin Sisko wouldnt have been shipped to DS9 after the loss of his wife in that battle.
If the Bajor wormhole was opened again then not only would the Federation be unprepared for the Borg - who realistically never were much of a constant threat beyond sporadic attacks.
They would have been even less prepared for the inevitable confrontation with the Dominion which ended up using a considerable amount of technology the Federation had been developing against the Borg. The Defiant being the most obvious example.

Wether or not this could have factored into Q's antics is entirely up to speculation though. It does seem rather apparant that Q has an above average intrest in Picard. His one appearance in DS9 pretty much established him as someone looking for a bit of a challenge and Sisko didnt satisfy with being 'easier to provoke'

I rather liked this episode, even watching it briefly in hindsight it manages to remain effective. Although, the ending bit with Guinan seemed a bit interesting. She told Picard the werent supposed to meet them yet and that in time the Federation might be able to reason with them. I'm guessing thats what would happen after a situation like Endgame for whatever Borg survived.
That would make for a pretty interesting twist in Admiral Janeway's future, if the Borg had decided to be diplomatic while the Feds have 'ways to defend against the Borg'
Letting the Borg become a member of the Federation and teaching them to seek better ways to improve life for everyone ?

PREDATOR490 wrote:It is interesting to note that by doing this Q not only saved the Federation from the Borg.
Without this intervention, Wolf 359 would never have occured and Benjamin Sisko wouldnt have been shipped to DS9 after the loss of his wife in that battle.
If the Bajor wormhole was opened again then not only would the Federation be unprepared for the Borg - who realistically never were much of a constant threat beyond sporadic attacks.
They would have been even less prepared for the inevitable confrontation with the Dominion which ended up using a considerable amount of technology the Federation had been developing against the Borg. The Defiant being the most obvious example.

Wether or not this could have factored into Q's antics is entirely up to speculation though. It does seem rather apparant that Q has an above average intrest in Picard. His one appearance in DS9 pretty much established him as someone looking for a bit of a challenge and Sisko didnt satisfy with being 'easier to provoke'

I wouldn't put it past Q to have worked out such a long-term plan. The Q can travel through time, correct, and across the galaxy? I'm sure Q knew all about the Dominion. In any case, I don't think he was warning the Federation/Picard about the Borg specifically, so much as he was using the Borg as an example of the many dangers they would face.

I rather liked this episode, even watching it briefly in hindsight it manages to remain effective. Although, the ending bit with Guinan seemed a bit interesting. She told Picard the werent supposed to meet them yet and that in time the Federation might be able to reason with them. I'm guessing thats what would happen after a situation like Endgame for whatever Borg survived.
That would make for a pretty interesting twist in Admiral Janeway's future, if the Borg had decided to be diplomatic while the Feds have 'ways to defend against the Borg'
Letting the Borg become a member of the Federation and teaching them to seek better ways to improve life for everyone ?

I like to think that the Borg originated from something very like the Federation. Their are actually certain similarities to how they operate, with both seeking to advance to a more perfect state through incorporating the abilities and resources of other species. The differences are probably more in the methods they use than the goal. It might also add a further explanation of why the Borg are so interested in the Federation, if they originated from something similar. I think part of the effectiveness of the Borg as a character/enemy is that while they provide a stark contrast with the Federation, their are also some similarities.

It would be interesting to eventually see some sort of negotiation between the two. The Borg don't normally negotiate, but they can be brought to do so if its clearly in their interests (Species 8472). If the Federation develops to a point where its a serious threat to the Borg, but is willing to negotiate, it might be possible. After all, the Borg as depicted in Voyager at any rate have a great deal to gain from working with the Federation, since they seem rather stagnant and unable to develop.

The Romulan Republic wrote:
I like to think that the Borg originated from something very like the Federation.

you really don't want to read the crap fest that is the Destiny Trilogy than.

I'd heard that "The neutral Zone" was actually supposed to be a two parter featuring the Borg, but they copped out. I WEPT when Soonenburg commented they were originally supposed to be insects because thst one decision alone would hsve kept the borg from sliding into "typical alien of the week" Even if they had decided to include the nano probe stupidity, how much more terrifying would it have been or picard to find himself mutating into a giant insect? he DEFINITELY wouldn't be back from THAT in one episode.

Just to add to the commentary that Q sent picard to he borg to demonstrate that humanity is not as evolved as it seems to presume it is, the episode where Worf was skipping through alternate realities gave us a dark look at what would have happened if the borg had assimilated Earth. When they created an anomaly that began to regurgitate alternate universe enterprises, one of them had no problem trying to annihalate worf's shuttle so they could stay where they were and not go back.

Themightytom wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:
I like to think that the Borg originated from something very like the Federation.

you really don't want to read the crap fest that is the Destiny Trilogy than.

Why? What's so crappy about it?

I'd heard that "The neutral Zone" was actually supposed to be a two parter featuring the Borg, but they copped out. I WEPT when Soonenburg commented they were originally supposed to be insects because thst one decision alone would hsve kept the borg from sliding into "typical alien of the week" Even if they had decided to include the nano probe stupidity, how much more terrifying would it have been or picard to find himself mutating into a giant insect? he DEFINITELY wouldn't be back from THAT in one episode.

Never underestimate the reset button. Don't forget that Paris and Janeway managed to turn into salamanders and back in one episode. Of course, that was Voyager, not TNG.

Barclay mutated into an insect, I think. It was more ridiculous then scary.

The Romulan Republic wrote: I like to think that the Borg originated from something very like the Federation. Their are actually certain similarities to how they operate, with both seeking to advance to a more perfect state through incorporating the abilities and resources of other species. The differences are probably more in the methods they use than the goal. It might also add a further explanation of why the Borg are so interested in the Federation, if they originated from something similar. I think part of the effectiveness of the Borg as a character/enemy is that while they provide a stark contrast with the Federation, their are also some similarities.

I distinctly recall the Queen telling Data the Borg used to be like the Federation / humans before and the link to the clip Patrick posted has Guinan claiming the Borg have been around for 'thousands of centuries'.
We also have Seven of Nine stating the Borg memory is fragmented from as far back as 900 years - 'Dragons Teeth' ?
Additionally, a rogue starfleet officer gone Maquis in DS9 literally called the Federation worse than the Borg to Sisko's face along the lines of what you just stated. So it does make for a valid reason why the Borg would be interested in them.
As for the latter, the Dominion were supposed to be a 'stark' contrast to the Federation too. They are a combination of races led by the changelings who think they are better than everyone else and bring 'order' to the peons.
Exchange 'changelings; with humans and 'order' with the Prime Directive you get the Federation treading extremely close to that kind of thinking. Naturally, the Dominion are the 'bad guys' and get rendered into the 2D 'bad' enemies to a degree but you could make the point that the Federation will end up like the Dominion in the end.
The result of the encounters with the Borg and the Dominion are making the Federation become much more militaristic with their forces and with people like Janeway who literally decide to alter time on a selfish whim...

The Romulan Republic wrote: It would be interesting to eventually see some sort of negotiation between the two. The Borg don't normally negotiate, but they can be brought to do so if its clearly in their interests (Species 8472). If the Federation develops to a point where its a serious threat to the Borg, but is willing to negotiate, it might be possible. After all, the Borg as depicted in Voyager at any rate have a great deal to gain from working with the Federation, since they seem rather stagnant and unable to develop.

My interpretation is the Borg look on everyone else like the Q or even the Federation look down on people. The latter do it with their Prime Directives etc.
The Voyager reviews already have one instance where Janeway was going to let mass genoicde happen because the Prime Directive said so and it is the 'natural evolution'.
The Borg depicted here just look at E-D as a resource. Like you might look at cattle.

Hence, inorder to negotiate with the Borg you need to actually make yourself 'worthy'. Like anyone wanting to join the Federation or those seeking to get help have to meet the rules of the almighty Prime Directive.
If your Pre-warp your not worth shit to the Federation except when you have something we want and we can put cloaked observation posts on your planet to watch you etc.
TNG: Who Watches the Watchers
TNG Insurrection: - In which case the Federation WERE acting like the Borg = You have something we want, GTFO so we can take it

I would suspect this is what Guinan meant. The Federation may be able to make the Borg recognise them as more than the shit they are used to.
Which leads to the situation which followed. The Federation managed to do so and the Borg decided the people were worth assimilating as much as their technology.
It stands to reason that the Borg have rarely negotiated with anyone and thus their ability to do so has been reduced to all but the basics like in Scorpian and thus inorder to really get on with the Borg your going to have to teach them to play nice as well as see you as an equal rather than a bug under the microscope.

Setzer wrote:Barclay mutated into an insect, I think. It was more ridiculous then scary.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Themightytom wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:
I like to think that the Borg originated from something very like the Federation.

you really don't want to read the crap fest that is the Destiny Trilogy than.

Why? What's so crappy about it?

Never underestimate the reset button. Don't forget that Paris and Janeway managed to turn into salamanders and back in one episode. Of course, that was Voyager, not TNG.

Yeah Voyager was further down alon the progression of rediculousness though, Picard/Locutus was one o the first instances of radical mutation/radical reset.

Reguarding the destiny series, Spoiler

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you'd better go back home and hide under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satisfy desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."

The entire climax remains one of my favorite pieces of sci-fi, anywhere.

Kuja wrote:"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you'd better go back home and hide under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satisfy desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."

The entire climax remains one of my favorite pieces of sci-fi, anywhere.

That's probably my favorite piece of Q dialogue in all of Star Trek.

And I only thumbed through the last third of the final Destiny book, but it looks like it was indeed the crap fest that that brief perusal (and the earlier review of Book 1) made it out to be.

Setzer wrote:Barclay mutated into an insect, I think. It was more ridiculous then scary.

A spider actually. No, the technobble didn't make sense in that case either.

The borg from this episode and the card game are the best- all others are discontinuity and Federation propaganda.

Samuel wrote:The borg from this episode and the card game are the best- all others are discontinuity and Federation propaganda.

Which card game?

If you mean the first edition of the Decipher one, I'd agree to an extent.

Are you going to do a video review of First Contact?

Themightytom wrote:Even if they had decided to include the nano probe stupidity, how much more terrifying would it have been or picard to find himself mutating into a giant insect? he DEFINITELY wouldn't be back from THAT in one episode.

I dunno, species 90210 wasn't all that scary.