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Curious, why did the Federation sign a treaty which stated that they would not operate cloaking devices? Did they get any advantage out of it?

"Unknown"

There's no explanation for it on the show as far as I know. Maybe they got territory in return, or some other concessions, but there's nothing solid. Maybe there was something in the novels?

The treaty, by the way, didn't ban all cloaking devices. Simple optical cloaks like the Duckblind were still allowed and the Romulans were flexible enough to allow cloaks to be used against the Dominion.

If one takes the exchanges between Picard and the Admiral (Riker's former captain) in the TNG episode "Pegasus", it seems to suggest the Treaty of Algeron was the Romulan's way of promising non hostility (at least directly) towards the Federation if they showed the willingness to take it up the ass in regards to cloaking technology.

It doesn't seem a whole lot different from nuclear non-proliferation treaties in use today. Typically, the parties which already have nukes (such as the USA and Russia) enter a treaty with a party which does not. What's unusual about the Treaty of Algeron is the fact that the party which agrees not to develop the weapons in question is a powerful state, not a weak one.

In real-life, the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty of 1970 (to which Canada is a signatory party, as well as all of the nuclear-armed powers) set down commitments of nuclear non-proliferation, nuclear disarmament, and exchange of peaceful uses of nuclear technology (monitored by the IAEA). Most of the world's nations are signatory to it, including Canada all of the presently nuclear-armed states. Israel, India, and Pakistan ignore it, and the DPRK withdrew from it in 2003.

It's probably worth noting at this point that the nuclear-armed powers, particularly the US and Russia, show little interest in holding up their end of the bargain. While nuclear stockpiles have decreased, it's pretty clear that they do not intend to ever undertake nuclear disarmament, or even reduction of their nuclear weapon arsenals below a fairly substantial level. It is, therefore, rather blatantly hypocritical of them to be outraged when other signatories to the NPT decide to start violating its conditions.

In any case, the treaty theoretically provides benefits to all parties. Those states which do not have nuclear weapons agree not to develop them in return for access to peaceful uses of the technology and a promise that nuclear-armed states will draw down their arsenals and commit to nuclear disarmament over the long term.

Unfortunately, it is a mystery what concessions the Romulans gave the Federation in return for agreeing not to develop cloaking devices. There is no indication whatsoever that the Romulans promised to cease the use of such devices at any time in the future, and given the almost total lack of communication between the Federation and the Romulan Empire in the years leading up to their first appearance in TNG (in "The Neutral Zone"), it's pretty clear that there is no monitoring of adherence to this treaty. In other words, there is no cloaking technology analogue to the IAEA.

The only real concession the Romulans appear to have given was a ceasefire and an agreement to honour the Neutral Zone treaty that was already in place anyway. However, as of TNG they had repeatedly violated even those conditions, crossing the Neutral Zone with military vessels on numerous occasions with complete disregard for the Neutral Zone Treaty, and even firing on Federation vessels, often with little or no provocation. At one point they even attempted to invade Vulcan, a key Federation star system!

Frankly, it seems as if the Federation only honours its side of the Treaty of Algeron because it is run by spineless imbeciles. The Romulans only honour their side of the treaty to the extent that Starfleet can forcibly contain their multiple attempted invasions, which is a colossal joke: it means they are not really honouring it at all.

The first time the Romulans unlawfully crossed the Neutral Zone with military vessels, the Federation should have given them a formal warning that future breaches of the Neutral Zone Treaty would lead to abrogation of the ban on cloaking device development. It goes without saying that there should have been some serious repercussions from their attempt to invade Vulcan.

If we must rationalize the Federation's behaviour with some method other than concluding that their testicles have been surgically removed in the period between TOS and TNG, I would advocate a Federation analogue of the Jewish-Israeli lobby in the United States.

Consider the parallels: American Jews are related by ancestry to Israelis. Federation Vulcans are related by ancestry to Romulans. The relationship between America and Israel is incredibly one-sided, with almost all benefits accruing to Israel. The Treaty of Algeron is incredibly one-sided, with almost all benefits accruing to the Romulans. Israel has repeatedly taken actions in defiance of American wishes. The Romulans have repeatedly violated their Treaty stipulations. No matter how much Israel thumbs its nose at America's wishes, there are never any serious repercussions. No matter how many times Romulus flagrantly violates the treaty, the Federation never retaliates in any way.

All we need is to postulate that there is strong Vulcan influence in the Federation civilian government which makes the entire Romulan question a political hot-potato, much as Israel's "Amen Chorus" in America makes any rational discussion of the Israeli situation impossible.

And yes, I know that this requires the Vulcans to be quite irrational about their tribal loyalties, just as American Jews go to absurd lengths to defend America's "take it up the ass" relationship with Israel. But I've made my opinion clear on Vulcan "logic" in the past; it is just a word they use, and not an actual principle they follow, other than to reject emotionalism (which is not the same as embracing logic).

The only problem is that Enterprise shows that humans hate Vulcans and the "booting them off the planet" implies that Vulcans hate the Romulans guts.

The only problem is that Enterprise shows that humans hate Vulcans

Only up until the Kir'Shara mess. After the Romulan War I'd imagine the Vulcans being close allies would improve relations. Sarek, later on, was close enough to the president to sit in on sensitive meetings.

Maybe the Tomed incident was a bigger Federation blunder than people think? It's what led to the Treaty; if it involved a Federation aggression (deliberate or accidental), the concessions in the Treaty could have been the Federation backpeddling furiously to try and avoid war.

That wouldn't explain the Federation's incredible spinelessness in the face of repeated Romulan military crossings of the Neutral Zone and the attempted invasion of Vulcan. I think my Vulcan version of the US-Israel lobby is still the best explanation, short of simply assuming that 24th century men have no testicles.

The Federation seems to largely believe that refusing to resort to violence, even in the face of extreme provocation, is somehow a sign of moral superiority.

Violence is the last resort of the stupid; the wise resort to it much sooner.

Over here Bounty has an interesting post on this matter:

Bounty wrote:The problem with cloaks is, to a large extent, that they seem to be a very research-intensive technology that needs continuous investment to remain relevant. The Federation constantly comes up with new ways to detect cloaked ships, and when needed they have consistently been able to defeat cloaks. The other powers presumably require equal, if not bigger, investments to keep their cloaking tech ahead of the curve, only to see it trounced by relatively simple means (Shinzon's über-cloak, for instance, can be defeated by a half-Betazoid's best guess). The Federation, even if it did have carte blanche to build its own military-grade cloaks instead of the simple optical ones used on the holoship, may simply wish to spend its efforts on proven technologies with an objective benefit - faster engines, better shields, more sensitive scanners - than on a supposed "magic bullet" tech that isn't guaranteed to be a decisive advantage.

Maybe the Federation had decided that cloaking was not worth the cost required to keep it as an effective technology, meaning they never had any intent to develop them. So agreeing not to use cloaks wasn't much of a concession on the Federations part because they never intended to use them in the first place.

I know it was an alternate future, but I still wonder about the circumstances that led the Federation to be using cloaking technology by the end of the 24th century according to 'All Good Things'. The Klingon Empire has annexed the Romulan Star Empire in this timeline, so it's possible that the treaty is null and void because the Romulan government has simply ceased to functionally exist... I'm sure there's been discussion on this before?

To understand how to beat a cloaking device, isn't it best to know how they work so wouldn't they be developing cloaking devices just to understand how to beat them. Also, wouldn't tactical training be best using ships with cloaking devices.

Darth Wong wrote:short of simply assuming that 24th century men have no testicles.

Would that really be such a farfetched assumption? Most interpersonal relationships in Star Trek require the woman to be the aggressor, and most men in TNG are flat out pussies (Harry Kim), failed womanizers (Will Riker), or just not good with women (Picard, Geordi).

bilateralrope wrote:Over here Bounty has an interesting post on this matter:

Bounty wrote:The problem with cloaks is, to a large extent, that they seem to be a very research-intensive technology that needs continuous investment to remain relevant. The Federation constantly comes up with new ways to detect cloaked ships, and when needed they have consistently been able to defeat cloaks. The other powers presumably require equal, if not bigger, investments to keep their cloaking tech ahead of the curve, only to see it trounced by relatively simple means (Shinzon's über-cloak, for instance, can be defeated by a half-Betazoid's best guess). The Federation, even if it did have carte blanche to build its own military-grade cloaks instead of the simple optical ones used on the holoship, may simply wish to spend its efforts on proven technologies with an objective benefit - faster engines, better shields, more sensitive scanners - than on a supposed "magic bullet" tech that isn't guaranteed to be a decisive advantage.

Maybe the Federation had decided that cloaking was not worth the cost required to keep it as an effective technology, meaning they never had any intent to develop them. So agreeing not to use cloaks wasn't much of a concession on the Federations part because they never intended to use them in the first place.

The Federation did develop a cloaking device, but they apparently destroyed it for fear of violating the Treaty of Algeron (the same treaty the Romulans were apparently using to wipe their asses with).

Darth Wong wrote:The Federation did develop a cloaking device, but they apparently destroyed it for fear of violating the Treaty of Algeron (the same treaty the Romulans were apparently using to wipe their asses with).

The way it was approached in that episode kind of bugged me. I got the impression supposedly there was only one copy of the phase cloak, the one on the Pegasus, and they had to reverse-engineer it from that. Wait, what? You'd think they'd have built multiple prototypes before going to field testing, or at least kept records of how the thing was built.

I guess one could postulate that the other prototypes were destroyed before the episode, and all the data erased.

Junghalli wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:The Federation did develop a cloaking device, but they apparently destroyed it for fear of violating the Treaty of Algeron (the same treaty the Romulans were apparently using to wipe their asses with).

The way it was approached in that episode kind of bugged me. I got the impression supposedly there was only one copy of the phase cloak, the one on the Pegasus, and they had to reverse-engineer it from that. Wait, what? You'd think they'd have built multiple prototypes before going to field testing, or at least kept records of how the thing was built.

I guess one could postulate that the other prototypes were destroyed before the episode, and all the data erased.

It could be assumed that the complete data for reconstructing the device was kept exclusively on the ship for reasons of secrecy, so it was lost with the ship. Reverse-engineering the device from the prototype might have been possible if enough of the original design team had survived and could be recruited. Even if most of the original designers are dead, it might still be possible, albeit more difficult. It was built from their own technology after all. But if the prototype was destroyed, they might have been right back at square one.

Nevertheless, you have to wonder how difficult it was if it could be done by a secret team which apparently did their work on a single vessel somewhere. Of course, since this is Star Trek, the whole thing would have been the brainchild of one particular genius who is essentially irreplaceable.

PS. There's another possibility. The Pegasus was lost when its phase-cloak malfunctioned and killed them all. The Romulans were also experimenting with phase-cloak technology and almost destroyed one of their ships when the device became unstable. What if they have the technology to produce the effect, but not the technology to stabilize it for any reasonable length of time? The E-D only used it for a few seconds in "Pegasus". This would mean that it's not so much "lost technology" as a dead-end: a device with risks too great to justify the rewards. If every ship with such a device ran a 50/50 chance of being destroyed by it, I have to think they'd be pretty reluctant to deploy the thing.

Kitsune wrote:To understand how to beat a cloaking device, isn't it best to know how they work so wouldn't they be developing cloaking devices just to understand how to beat them. Also, wouldn't tactical training be best using ships with cloaking devices.

The principles behind a cloaking device are ones which can be easily enough derived and simulated on computer. It is also fairly easy to figure out just what can't be masked even with the best cloak and to design detection systems based on identifying those signatures. Field observation also indicates the telltale phenomena which indicate a ship decloaking and provides a last-minute warning.

In the series and movies, at least three measures of anticloak detection were improvised on the spot, all based upon characteristics of the cloaked ship's basic functioning or by the presence of heavy subspace interference caused by parasitic frequencies generated from the cloaking field. Even if the phasing cloak had been developed, it put out it's own heavy signature of weird quantum particles which can be detected by sensors and nullified by a cascade field composed of another weird quantum particle ("The Next Phase").

Cloaking works only against an enemy which isn't prepared to face a surprise attack and hasn't got it's defences rigged or isn't already blanketing the area with sensor scans. It is also an energy-intensive system which disables a ship's deflectors and weaponry. On balance, cloaking devices really have not proved decisive as a weapons system. The Federation agreed to this treaty but hasn't really suffered from the alleged disadvantage of not having cloak-equipped starships. Nor did the Cardassians, who also didn't bother with developing cloaking technology for their fleet (the combined Tal'Shiar/Obsidian Order taskforce which went to it's doom in the Gamma Quadrant notwithstanding).

Bounty wrote:Maybe there was something in the novels

Aye, the Treaty of Algernon and the Tomed Incident is the focus of the novel Serpent Among the Ruins. While not canon, it follows like this:

Basically, the Feds incorporate cloaking tech into a fictitious 'hyperwarp' technology and test it near the Romulan border; naturally it goes wrong and the Romulans get antsy. It's part of a complex plan to bring an end to the geo-political tensions that had been building between the Big 3 since the Khitomer Confrence. The proceedings lead up to the Incident and the end result is that the Feds agree to outlaw cloaking tech on their side as part of the Treaty of Algernon (though it is noted they have no real interest in the tech. Very foolish, IMHO; it would serve their exploration purposes, but oh well).

In TNG, the Treaty of Algeron seemed to follow from events surrounding the Battle of Cheron, which was apparently a major Romulan defeat according to the defector Alidar Jharok and one the Romulans still had stuck in their craws ("The Defector").

Darth Wong wrote:That wouldn't explain the Federation's incredible spinelessness in the face of repeated Romulan military crossings of the Neutral Zone and the attempted invasion of Vulcan. I think my Vulcan version of the US-Israel lobby is still the best explanation, short of simply assuming that 24th century men have no testicles.

The analogy is wrong because Israel is an ally of the US , not an enemy.

A more apt analogy would be the US granting billions of dollars in aid to Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and other terrorist areas which are clearly anti-US in the name of political correctness ( or stupidity ? ).

Does the cloaked ship resemble a submarine if we compare it to a real navy?

saurc wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:That wouldn't explain the Federation's incredible spinelessness in the face of repeated Romulan military crossings of the Neutral Zone and the attempted invasion of Vulcan. I think my Vulcan version of the US-Israel lobby is still the best explanation, short of simply assuming that 24th century men have no testicles.

The analogy is wrong because Israel is an ally of the US , not an enemy.

A more apt analogy would be the US granting billions of dollars in aid to Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and other terrorist areas which are clearly anti-US in the name of political correctness ( or stupidity ? ).

We do. Egypt is the second biggest source of US foreign aid and we do help out Saudi Arabia and Pakistan (5th).

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politic ... gn-aid.htm

saurc wrote:Does the cloaked ship resemble a submarine if we compare it to a real navy?

No. They make the analogy in The Balance of Terror, but it doesn't work. Subs occupy a different region than the rest of the fleet.

Patrick Degan wrote:In TNG, the Treaty of Algeron seemed to follow from events surrounding the Battle of Cheron, which was apparently a major Romulan defeat according to the defector Alidar Jharok and one the Romulans still had stuck in their craws ("The Defector").

Wasn't the Battle of Cheron a battle in the Earth/Romulan War in the late twenty second century, a century or two before the Treaty of Algeron?

saurc wrote:Does the cloaked ship resemble a submarine if we compare it to a real navy?

In tactical use, maybe. Several non-Trek writers explore the tactical ideas on how cloaking devices might be effective (Starfire series is pretty interesting in that regard)

One place I do consider it analogous is in training. When USS Nautilus, the first nuclear submarine commissioned, the US Navy realized that effectively she was virtually undetectable. The was extensive training, developing of new hardware to detect the submarines, along with new tactics.

Training against cloaked ships seems to make basically the same sense. If they always potential expected cloaked ships, they might get hit flat footed less often. Training like that also puts you into a certain mindset. Of course others may disagree.

saurc wrote:Does the cloaked ship resemble a submarine if we compare it to a real navy?

Sam has it righter. Most importantly, a submarine is not a cloaked vessel, it is a mostly undetectable vessel which requires specialized weaponry to engage and can still engage you easily from it's superior defensive position. Cloaked ships are basically just ships using a bit of a gimmick, one that could easily backfire. A submarine is not defenseless by any means while under the water, while a cloaked vessel is nearly useless while cloaked--as their shields are down and weapons disabled.