StarDestroyer.Net BBS

We all know that the Galaxy class has shown itself to be a much better combat ship in DS9. We even have indications of significant upgrades. This includes the armored spined version and the increased weapon system version.

Traditionally the "First Flight" of Galaxy class ships is considered to be a flawed designed. We see multiple examples of seemingly poor combat capabilities and damage control on the Enterprise. They Yamato blew completely and had poor control over its warp core. The Oddessy hardly damaged Jem'Hadar Attackships while it was destroyed because of damage to its deflecter section.

However, was the Enterprise at the time of its death a First Flight Galaxy anymore? We saw the USS Galaxy herself sustain heavy damage at Chintoka yet survive and it even lead a battlegroup in Nemesis. So, could the Enterprise have been a War Galaxy by the time of Generations?

I have to say yes. Unlike in previous combat situations, the Enterprise was caught without its shields. It sustained heavy damage to its stardrive section before the warp core collapsed. This is a far cry from the splash damage it used to take through the shields with the ship nearly crippled. Infact the Enterprise was much like the Galaxy at Chintoka. It sustained heavy hull damage but kept on fighting. It took multiple torpedo impacts as well as disrupter shots before it was eventually damaged enough it had to do saucer seperation.

That would mean the Enterprise had to have gone through a refit before we saw it in Generations. This is further supported by two things we learn from internal movie sets. First, the bridge module on the Galaxy is different. The lighting is not so large while several new stations have been added to the bridge. Worf finally got a seat as well. Also changed is the main sickbay is now located in the stardrive section.

So, from the battle damage we saw the Enterprise sustain as well as changes in the interior of the ship I would have to say the Enterprise recieved a refit shortly after All Good Things. The Oddessy was lost to a new threat in the Gama Quandrant. Furthermore multiple design flaws in the Galaxy class were finally adressed and the Enterprise along with the USS Galaxy recieved upgrades making them the first of the War Galaxy variation.

Sounds plausable.

The Enterprise still had an inadequate warp core shutdown/ejection system in ST:G. They had several minutes to stop the fuel flow, vent excess fuel to space, eject the core, eject the anti-matter pods, and otherwise avoid a warp core explosion, but they obviously couldn't. No failure-driven safety systems, no redundancy, no correction of flaws that have apparently been with the Enterprise since TNG season 1. We know the ship had undergone a variety of refits over the years, yet the fundamental design flaws remained.

Ted C wrote:The Enterprise still had an inadequate warp core shutdown/ejection system in ST:G. They had several minutes to stop the fuel flow, vent excess fuel to space, eject the core, eject the anti-matter pods, and otherwise avoid a warp core explosion, but they obviously couldn't. No failure-driven safety systems, no redundancy, no correction of flaws that have apparently been with the Enterprise since TNG season 1. We know the ship had undergone a variety of refits over the years, yet the fundamental design flaws remained.

It is possible that shock damage prevented them from ejecting the core. Likewise I think the USS Galaxy got further improvements prior to the war. However the simple fact remains is that the Enterprise displayed itself much better in Generations then previously shown. It took heavier levels of damage and rather then the warp core blowing up instantly, it took time.

Alyeska wrote: It is possible that shock damage prevented them from ejecting the core. Likewise I think the USS Galaxy got further improvements prior to the war. However the simple fact remains is that the Enterprise displayed itself much better in Generations then previously shown. It took heavier levels of damage and rather then the warp core blowing up instantly, it took time.

In what way did the Enterprise show superior performance in Generations. When attacked, her return fire was pathetic. She demonstrated the exact same inability to handle a developing warp core overload that she has always had. I recall a single, direct hit to the drive section which the shields didn't stop; she took an unshielded hit from Gul Macet's cruiser in "The Wounded" with less effect.

The best offensive performance from the ship that I recall was in "Survivors", in which the Enterprise demonstrated the ability to fire a lot of phaser and torpedo shots in a short time. The best defensive performance was probably "Yesterday's Enterprise", and even that militarized version of the Enterprise couldn't do much about an impending warp core breach.

Ted C wrote:

Alyeska wrote: It is possible that shock damage prevented them from ejecting the core. Likewise I think the USS Galaxy got further improvements prior to the war. However the simple fact remains is that the Enterprise displayed itself much better in Generations then previously shown. It took heavier levels of damage and rather then the warp core blowing up instantly, it took time.

In what way did the Enterprise show superior performance in Generations. When attacked, her return fire was pathetic. She demonstrated the exact same inability to handle a developing warp core overload that she has always had. I recall a single, direct hit to the drive section which the shields didn't stop; she took an unshielded hit from Gul Macet's cruiser in "The Wounded" with less effect.

The best offensive performance from the ship that I recall was in "Survivors", in which the Enterprise demonstrated the ability to fire a lot of phaser and torpedo shots in a short time. The best defensive performance was probably "Yesterday's Enterprise", and even that militarized version of the Enterprise couldn't do much about an impending warp core breach.

I wasn't talking about offensive performace. I was talking about damage taking capabilities. The E-D sustained more damage then ever previously shown and lasted reasonably well all things considered. When it comes to combat performance that can be blamed on two things. B&B and Riker. The Enterprise should have been able to take down the BoP in a single volley.

That's what redundancy is for, Alyeska. If one system fails, another system takes over. Given that if something goes wrong with the system the ship explodes, multiple ways to eject the system should be mandatory. These systems clearly didn't work. That doesn't seem like much an improvement over TNG.

Besides, the Enterprise hardly displayed herself well in Generations, considering that an obsolete Klingon warbird shot her down. If the E-D was a War-Galaxy then, why did it lose the fight? All Riker would have had to say is "Make that ship die." and the battle should have been over.

EDIT: Besides, Generations happened in late 1994 according to startrek.com, the Dominion War, and thus War-Galaxies, don't happen till later in 1995. The Enterprise-D was destroyed somewhere around the time of "The Defiant".

Gil Hamilton wrote:That's what redundancy is for, Alyeska. If one system fails, another system takes over. Given that if something goes wrong with the system the ship explodes, multiple ways to eject the system should be mandatory. These systems clearly didn't work. That doesn't seem like much an improvement over TNG.

Besides, the Enterprise hardly displayed herself well in Generations, considering that an obsolete Klingon warbird shot her down. If the E-D was a War-Galaxy then, why did it lose the fight? All Riker would have had to say is "Make that ship die." and the battle should have been over.

Actually Riker SHOULD have said that. We already know from multiple episodes of TNG that the Enterprise was capable of far more. The problem is Riker is typically portrayed as someone who prefers bizare tactics over standard ones.

It's a moot point anyway, since in my edit I pointed out that the Enterprise-D was destroyed sometime just prior to the beginning of the Dominion War, so it couldn't have been a War-Galaxy anyway.

As I noted earlier, the Enterprise took a direct, unshielded hit from Gul Macet's Galor-class cruiser in "The Wounded" with virtually no effect on her subsequent combat performance. Exactly how is the ship's performance in Generations supposed to be superior to that. Are you suggesting that the firepower and targeting capabilities of a Galor-class Cardassian cruiser are substantially inferior to those of a 20-year-old B'Rel-class Bird of Prey?

Ted C wrote:As I noted earlier, the Enterprise took a direct, unshielded hit from Gul Macet's Galor-class cruiser in "The Wounded" with virtually no effect on her subsequent combat performance. Exactly how is the ship's performance in Generations supposed to be superior to that. Are you suggesting that the firepower and targeting capabilities of a Galor-class Cardassian cruiser are substantially inferior to those of a 20-year-old B'Rel-class Bird of Prey?

Comparing between the torpedoes and the original power we saw on the Galor, yes. Just note how much damage the Enterprise took on the engineering section with those first two torpedoes.

Gil Hamilton wrote:It's a moot point anyway, since in my edit I pointed out that the Enterprise-D was destroyed sometime just prior to the beginning of the Dominion War, so it couldn't have been a War-Galaxy anyway.

Not exactly true. The Enterprise was destroyed after the existance of the Dominion was shown. Furthermore the Venture variant of the Galaxy class was shown at the begining of season 4 on DS9. The Dominion war didn't start for 2 more years. The Federation was preparing.

Anyway I am inclined to say the Enterprise had improvements since we last saw it, but it wasn't yet a true War Galaxy.

Alyeska wrote:Not exactly true. The Enterprise was destroyed after the existance of the Dominion was shown. Furthermore the Venture variant of the Galaxy class was shown at the begining of season 4 on DS9. The Dominion war didn't start for 2 more years. The Federation was preparing.

Anyway I am inclined to say the Enterprise had improvements since we last saw it, but it wasn't yet a true War Galaxy.

Your title says War-Galaxy.

Alyeska wrote:Actually Riker SHOULD have said that. We already know from multiple episodes of TNG that the Enterprise was capable of far more. The problem is Riker is typically portrayed as someone who prefers bizare tactics over standard ones.

According to the TNG episode "Peak Performance" Riker was stated to be one of the finest officers in StarFleet, according to Picard. Surely being one of StarFleets better officers would indicate that Riker has enough of a brain stem to say "Kill them alot."

Alyeska wrote: Comparing between the torpedoes and the original power we saw on the Galor, yes. Just note how much damage the Enterprise took on the engineering section with those first two torpedoes.

Well, I suppose that you could argue that the ability to maneuver and fire at all after taking a direct hit is a substantial improvement over the ship's typical combat performance in TNG.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Not exactly true. The Enterprise was destroyed after the existance of the Dominion was shown. Furthermore the Venture variant of the Galaxy class was shown at the begining of season 4 on DS9. The Dominion war didn't start for 2 more years. The Federation was preparing.

Anyway I am inclined to say the Enterprise had improvements since we last saw it, but it wasn't yet a true War Galaxy.

Your title says War-Galaxy.

That would mean that I changed my mind.

Ted C wrote:As I noted earlier, the Enterprise took a direct, unshielded hit from Gul Macet's Galor-class cruiser in "The Wounded" with virtually no effect on her subsequent combat performance. Exactly how is the ship's performance in Generations supposed to be superior to that. Are you suggesting that the firepower and targeting capabilities of a Galor-class Cardassian cruiser are substantially inferior to those of a 20-year-old B'Rel-class Bird of Prey?

It is possible that E-D took the torp from the Galor in a place far from any important systems. Second, I believe that Klingon torps are superior t those of the Cardies. Third, it took many hits to cause to breach. Fourth, the impacts seem to mostly hit the E-D in the center of the Stardrive section and clost to engineering.