The Agony Booth Does "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier"

[Big Orange]

The Agony Booth has now got a long winded review article of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, a Trek movie worse than The Motion Picture (which had its moments and attempted to be different, despite being boring) and Nemesis (which merely felt tired, derivative, and by the numbers, rather than comically bad), and arguably worse than Insurrection (elitist, patronizing, and had crypto-Nazi undertones). ST V is unintentionally funny and irredeemably cheesy dreck along the lines of "Spock's Brain", "The Naked Now", or "Threshold". It had a few OK character moments with the Big Three on a camping trip, but the rest of the movie was just not there, with the cut price production values and appaling "special" effects compounding the cheesy writing and campy acting.

[CaptHawkeye]

"Why does God need a starship?"

When I say, "the first six movies were awesome" I implicitely exclude V because it wouldn't make sense to say "the 5 TOS movies". I've always been amazed at how much leniancy Paramount gave the series despite its fuck ups. How the excellent "Undiscovered Country" managed to come into existence after Shatner's mess is a question.

It's actually pretty interesting that negative opinions on The Motion Picture have lightened up over the years. Yeah, it's a mostly boring movie. But I have to admit it had moments. V'Ger is one of the franchise' more under rated villians, in my opinion. It freaked me out when I was young. Since all anyone knew about it was that it was this ravenous cloud gobbling up ships and planets. Hey man it worked on me.

I think TMP's problem was its middle. Around the time Enterprise got stuck in V'Ger's digestive tract the movie slowed down a bit.... a lot actually.

[Drooling Iguana]

I think one of the main reasons why opinion on TMP has improved substantially over the past few years is the fact that the version of TMP that's available on DVD now is a substantially better movie than the one that was released in 1979. This is one situation where an edited re-release was actually done right.

[Lord Revan]

the motion picture's problem was that there was enough plot for a 30-60 min episode and the rest was padding ST5 on the other hand is totally a different story (an idiotic one to be precise).

[Big Orange]

I've puzzled how the Planet of Galactic Peace was such a inhospitable hellhole full of Mad Max-style bandits, despite the joint funding from three big interstellar nations, and I agree with the reviewer that making the Enterprise-A a rust bucket was a bad attempt at grittyness.

[Batman]

I suspect the E-A being trash wasn't an attempt at grittyness so much as another desperate and rather failed attempt at being funny.

[Themightytom]

I suspect the E-A being trash wasn't an attempt at grittyness so much as another desperate and rather failed attempt at being funny.

No that actually worked for the one liner "Lets see what she's got says the captain, and we saw didn't we."

But after that it was a bit tired. Especially when with a POS falling apart around him and harve Bennett on the screen saying "We need Jim kirk" they didn't jsut pull out the Excelsior that was parked NEXT to the enterprise and let him take THAT to Nimbus 3. Klaaaaaaaaaaaaaah or whatever would have straight up had his ass kicked and the movie would have been over quicker.

I liked the campfire scene, and not really the rest. Shatner sensed Trek was headed in a new direction, but was wrong about what it was. he played up the humor bits from ST IV completely wrong

incidently the commentary on the DVD is the perfect sleep aid. zonks you out before you get to the credits.

[Sonnenburg]

It's my understanding the studio asked for it to be comedic like IV since that was such a success. However, it just goes to show what happens when you stick to an idea that's no longer feasible. Shatner wanted to one-up Roddenberry by actually doing the story of Kirk searching for God (which Roddenberry had tried but couldn't make work). That's where people defend the film saying it would have been great if not for that. However, they knew going in it'd require comedy, and they went ahead anyway, which is why the whole damn thing is a mess (because even a master writer would have a hard time adding comedy to an adventure story about a search for a higher power or higher meaning). It's like planning to do a story about the holocaust and the studio says for their next film they want a musical comedy, so instead of starting over you do a musical comedy about the holocaust and spend the rest of your career blaming the studio when you were the one who decided to mishmash things together.

[tim31]

A reasonable explanation for all this is given by Shater himself(with the help of writers) in the Futurama episode Where No Fan Has Gone Before.

NIMOY: When I directed Star Trek IV, I got a great performance out of Bill because I respected him so much.

SHATNER: And when I directed Star Trek V, I got a great performance out of me because I respect me so much!

[Patrick Degan]

There were about two or three bits of humour which worked, but the rest was definitely forced and just kept tripping the movie up through its first half. The jokes about the condition of the new Enterprise really should have ended with Scotty's log entry and his complaint about seeing just what the ship's got. Beyond that, it was just beating a dead horse.

The campfire sequence could have been one of the best character moments of the film had it cut off at the exchange in which McCoy wonders what kept them stuck together for so long when normal people have families cueing Kirk's quiet delivery of the line "Other people, Bones. Not us." But then, the whole "Row Your Boat" song sequence ruined what could have been a fine moment of pathos defining these three men at this point in their lives.

The Chekov/Sulu lost-in-the-woods sequence was useless. It could have been dropped and nothing would have been missing from the movie.

Given that this was an action movie, you'd have to have the commando raid. But it could have done without Uhura's fan-dance in the pale moonlight.

[tim31]

Do you suppose with the broken down ship routine that they failed to realise that in The Empire Strikes Back it was a source of drama and tension, and only occassionally comedy?

[Themightytom]

It's my understanding the studio asked for it to be comedic like IV since that was such a success. However, it just goes to show what happens when you stick to an idea that's no longer feasible. Shatner wanted to one-up Roddenberry by actually doing the story of Kirk searching for God (which Roddenberry had tried but couldn't make work). That's where people defend the film saying it would have been great if not for that. However, they knew going in it'd require comedy, and they went ahead anyway, which is why the whole damn thing is a mess (because even a master writer would have a hard time adding comedy to an adventure story about a search for a higher power or higher meaning). It's like planning to do a story about the holocaust and the studio says for their next film they want a musical comedy, so instead of starting over you do a musical comedy about the holocaust and spend the rest of your career blaming the studio when you were the one who decided to mishmash things together.

The life of brian, Dogma, Bruce Almighty...

I think we have to face the fact that whatever the topic William Shatner will F it up,Exhibit A: Tech wars.

Although he Does seem to recognize Awesome when he sees it. his klingon theme was banging, and except for the stunted ridges they were pretty bad ass, I think he was going for "The ridges were just developing" or something.

Also I liked the concept behind the camp fire scene, even in the future guys still go camping. (Even if theres a fricking electronic marshmellow maker, or worse, incredibly advanced pringles can). Round 2 ncould ahve done without the harp I suppose but hey, kudos for remembering Spock likes the harp.

Ulhura being an old lady doing a hot dance WAS the gag, and i thought the guys chasing her accross the desert only to meet her gravelly oldness was hysterical.

Fuck the cat lady i don't know what that wass for, but for the msot part Shatner cherry picked some pretty good "in" jokes, "Stand back"... Scotty walking into a pipe etc.

he just completely blew it with the God issue, he seemed under the assumption that a lighthearted film could suddenly turn deep and jump right back to light. Works for scrubs, not so much for star trek.

Shatner did eventually figure out the comedy/Drama balance later in boston legal as an actor but I don't know that he's ever directed anything which really worked.

Incidently there's an interview on the ST:II dvd in which shatner discloses he was completely in the dark regarding Nimoy's character resurrection but adamantly believed the whole drama about whether or not he would return was a staged salary negotiation. Shatner actually felt betrayed and vowed he would "get nimoy back" some day.

If that what he thought ST: Generations would be, the road paved for a Kirk resurrection, than boyyyyy was he disappointed. Especially when they didn't bother to stick him into the Abrahms Star Trek. They could ahve thrown in a little montage during Spock's mindmeld, considering some of kirk's mind was still in there, and let him do a little voiceover or something. Instead he got to bicker with George Takei over not being invited to the wedding.

All of this jsut goes to show that Shatner has a pattern of making a magnificent leap but falling flat from time to time. Still I suppose it works SOMETIMES, he was Captain Kirk, TJ Hooker, and Denny Crane. His chief competition now is a garden gnome.

[Sonnenburg]

Those are not adventure stories that someone has added comedy to, those are comedies.

[Themightytom]

Those are not adventure stories that someone has added comedy to, those are comedies.

Oh right I was concentrating on the "master storyteller" part and missed the "Adventure stories" part completely. in that case, you're right I can't think of any examples that weren't Epics.

Edit: Chuck did you catch the ST books where they linked Q to the ST: V head? Q squared I think?

[Terralthra]

Q Squared actually linked Q to Trelane from the TOS episode Squire of Gothos, if I recall correctly. I don't remember any mention of the antagonist from STV.

[Themightytom]

Q Squared actually linked Q to Trelane from the TOS episode Squire of Gothos, if I recall correctly. I don't remember any mention of the antagonist from STV.

alright I'm 0 for 2, I was thinking off the Q Continuom trilogy, in which q accidently makes contact with a being known as 0. 0 then recruits some buddies, The Gorgan, and The One, (*) and starts messing with civilizations. the One eventually becomes The Head.

* was the one that messed with captain Kirk and Kang to make them fight, Gorgan did the michael jackson thing and brainwashed some kids, 0 was teh entity outside the galactic barrier which invaded gary mitchell's mind, essentially this book blamed Q for a lot of Kirk's problems.

[CDiehl]

I've puzzled how the Planet of Galactic Peace was such a inhospitable hellhole full of Mad Max-style bandits, despite the joint funding from three big interstellar nations

There isn't much indication that they put much money or effort into developing Nimbus III. It wouldn't suprise me if those three governments never gave Nimbus III much thought until Sybok showed up and took their ambassadors hostage.

I imagine that developing Nimbus III as some sort of joint project by the Big Three was begun under governments that lost power soon thereafter. Their replacements had no interest in continuing the project, but they each had a one-third interest in a planet that they didn't want to abandon. So, they all shipped out a bunch of undesirables, denied them weapons (an order they don't seem to enforce beyond not shipping in weapons) and left them to their own devices.

[Patrick Degan]

I've puzzled how the Planet of Galactic Peace was such a inhospitable hellhole full of Mad Max-style bandits, despite the joint funding from three big interstellar nations

There isn't much indication that they put much money or effort into developing Nimbus III. It wouldn't suprise me if those three governments never gave Nimbus III much thought until Sybok showed up and took their ambassadors hostage.

I imagine that developing Nimbus III as some sort of joint project by the Big Three was begun under governments that lost power soon thereafter. Their replacements had no interest in continuing the project, but they each had a one-third interest in a planet that they didn't want to abandon. So, they all shipped out a bunch of undesirables, denied them weapons (an order they don't seem to enforce beyond not shipping in weapons) and left them to their own devices.

St. John Talbot says as much to Cathlin Dar, the new Romulan representative, when she arrives to take on her assignment.

[Themightytom]

I've puzzled how the Planet of Galactic Peace was such a inhospitable hellhole full of Mad Max-style bandits, despite the joint funding from three big interstellar nations

There isn't much indication that they put much money or effort into developing Nimbus III. It wouldn't suprise me if those three governments never gave Nimbus III much thought until Sybok showed up and took their ambassadors hostage.

I imagine that developing Nimbus III as some sort of joint project by the Big Three was begun under governments that lost power soon thereafter. Their replacements had no interest in continuing the project, but they each had a one-third interest in a planet that they didn't want to abandon. So, they all shipped out a bunch of undesirables, denied them weapons (an order they don't seem to enforce beyond not shipping in weapons) and left them to their own devices.

St. John Talbot says as much to Cathlin Dar, the new Romulan representative, when she arrives to take on her assignment.

They are a great example of undeveloped characters. They could have been a B5 style triad, like Londo G'Kar and Delenn instead, they pretty much get no lines after Act III

[tim31]

Talbot's usefulness to the overall plot is expended the moment the landing party is captured. Actually, it's really over as soon as the Enterprise clears moorings at Spacedock. Koord doesn't really become a player until the last ten minutes. Cathlin does not advance the plot in any meaningful way. I can't see any way they could have been better utilized.

[Big Orange]

Nimbus III could've been a more worthwhile class-M planet, not completely un-associated with the UFP, RSE, and KE in the style or architecture (no Moss Eisley knock offs), and there is much better technology with the colonists not being braindead freaks living in stone huts and carrying around pointy sticks. A better depicted Nimbus III would be a partially successful endevour, but the three powers pull the plug for political reasons, leaving the resourceful colonists to rot and be more legitimately bitter towards the authorities who set up the colony world.

Also why the hell was Spock born in a cave? That's taking the rustic, desert Vulcans brainbug too far. And "God" was a disappointment as well, he was merely a floaty head wearing a fake Santa Clause beard, and got killed by a pissant Klingon Warbird. A more imposing faux God with powers similar to Q's would've been imprisoned inside the supermassive blackhole in the centre of the Milky Way.

[CaptHawkeye]

I'd like to know a lot about why Vulcan culture is so rustic and homegrown despite their "dislike" for emotional attachment to things. You'd think their "logical" side would cue in at somepoint and say "why the fuck are we still living in caves?"

[NecronLord]

with powers similar to Q's would've been imprisoned inside the supermassive blackhole in the centre of the Milky Way.

I'm pretty sure that concept in astronomy was thought up after the film was made. It certainly wasn't mainstream until late 90s or so, AFAIK.

[Big Orange]

I'm pretty sure that concept in astronomy was thought up after the film was made. It certainly wasn't mainstream until late 90s or so, AFAIK.

It would be relatively obscure amongst the general public, but amongst good sci-fi writers? Although to be fair The Final Frontier did not seem to have writers, full stop, and even if they hadn't heard about supermassive blackholes they could've come up with something better than a floaty head on a crappy planet.

Also Stargate SG-1 always seemed to be better than the Trek franchise at balancing dry humour with weighty drama.

And while The (Slow) Motion Picture had its faults, I thought V'Ger was a more plausible and imaginative god-like space being, even if the Enterprise spent ten hours drifting over its gargantuan outer hull. I also liked TMP's opening scene, where Klingon ships are under attack from a Moog synthesizer and Industrial Light & Magic effects - the overall Klingon "look" defined by The Motion Picture remained virtually unchanged a great many years until the discontinuation of Enterprise in 2005. The Borg looked quite different in First Contact to what they did in "Q Who?".

[Big Orange]

I'd like to know a lot about why Vulcan culture is so rustic and homegrown despite their "dislike" for emotional attachment to things. You'd think their "logical" side would cue in at somepoint and say "why the fuck are we still living in caves?"

The Vulcans are emotional and self-contradictory beings, as shown in JJ Abrams' Star Trek and mentioned in The Voyage Home, why would beings who are supposedly logical have school yard bullies?