Kirk's plan vs Nero:

[The Romulan Republic]

I have chosen to take this discussion to a new thread rather than derail the thread where this discussion began (link provided below). While the issue has come up before, I couldn't find any existing thread specifically on this topic, so hopefully this is acceptable, and not considered too spammy.

Thread in question: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&start=75

To answer Samuel's points from the other thread...

Except if the entire fleet had followed Kirk's logic it would have been defeated piecemeal. They wanted to concentrate the fleet so they could take the Narada down and if every single human captain had decided to beeline to Earth Nero could have simply killed them one by one.

Was the fleet being sent to engage Nero a collection of scattered ships being gathered together specifically to face him (in which case your point might be valid), or a single cohesive force which the Enterprise was going to join up with?

In any case, doesn't Kirk state that the fleet will not arrive in time? Baring the possibility that he is mistaken or lying (for which their is no on-screen evidence to the best of my knowledge), then the choices are more or less "write off Earth" or "go and fight Nero."

Which would you pick in Kirk's place?

Because the chance of him saving Earth before Old Spock was ZERO. The chance with the fleet was a non-zero number. This isn't hard.

Kirk states, does he not, that the fleet cannot arrive in time? If that is indeed the case, then its better for them to head to Earth on their own rather than go join the fleet in the full knowledge that they will arrive too late.

At worst, the odds of saving Earth will be zero either way.

The battle plan they used depended entirely on Old Spock's knowledge.

Which has no bearing on the fact that going to defend Earth rather than meeting up with the fleet was, arguably at least, the best choice of the various lousy options available.

No, the only reason he won was because Khan didn't kill Kirk in the initial volley. As for nebula (even gas giant looking ones), they are more common than time traveling mentors.

Actually, in Trek they both seem to be surprisingly common.

The main point here, I think, is that both Captain Kirks relied on something that happened to convieniently be in the right place at the right time, without which they probably couldn't have won.


In short, I would contend that while Kirk in the new films has his flaws, and his plan was not perfect, the following defense can be made:

1. Given a choice between writing off Earth and going to fight Nero with a tiny chance of victory, it was at least arguably better to take option two.

2. Kirk's ultimate plan, while dependent on transwarp beaming learned from Old Spock, was largely sound.

[Samuel]

then the choices are more or less "write off Earth" or "go and fight Nero."

Correct.

Which would you pick in Kirk's place?

I have not been given the responsibilty to command a trillion dollar warship with the capacity to torch defenseless worlds and potentially kill billions if I go rogue. However, if I was in such a position I'd obey orders- the Federation survives because its individual species do not put themselves first- if we lose that we lose the Federation.

If that is indeed the case, then its better for them to head to Earth on their own rather than go join the fleet in the full knowledge that they will arrive too late.

At worst, the odds of saving Earth will be zero either way.

A captain first duty is to the Federation, not their homeworld. It would be like a general disobeying order in order to save his hometown, even if it risks getting all his men killed for no gain. Isn't disobeying a direct order a court marshalable offense?

Which has no bearing on the fact that going to defend Earth rather than meeting up with the fleet was, arguably at least, the best choice of the various lousy options available.

Losing Earth isn't the worst scenario. Losing all the founding members worlds is. What would happen if the fleet split up with each captain going to defend their own home world?

The main point here, I think, is that both Captain Kirks relied on something that happened to convieniently be in the right place at the right time, without which they probably couldn't have won.

Except that in TWOK Kirk did not rely upon it- he was put into a situation and he latched onto that as an escape. Given that it looked like a gas giant his plan depended on the odds of finding a gas giant in a solar system which is pretty good.

By contrast Kirk in the movie made a plan in advance that required a miracle to work.

2. Kirk's ultimate plan, while dependent on transwarp beaming learned from Old Spock, was largely sound.

His plan was... what exactly? Die gloriously?

[Darth Wong]

His plan was... what exactly? Die gloriously?

In fairness, it's possible that his plan was to simply make a suicide charge for the chain and take it out, thus keeping Nero from destroying Earth with his red-matter weapon. He didn't need to destroy the whole ship; just that chain. That would buy enough time for reinforcements to show up.

[Gramzamber]

If this Federation is anything like the original then Earth pretty much *is* the Federation in any case, with regards to governmental and military structure at least.
The Federation Council, the office of the President, Starfleet Command and Starfleet Academy are all on Earth. With Vulcan and Earth gone what do you have left? Andor? Tellar? I've never heard of anything vital to the Federation being situated there and while there probably is, losing Earth is still pretty much a decapitating blow.

[Stark]

In fairness, it's possible that his plan was to simply make a suicide charge for the chain and take it out, thus keeping Nero from destroying Earth with his red-matter weapon. He didn't need to destroy the whole ship; just that chain. That would buy enough time for reinforcements to show up.

This comes down to how the fleet was destroyed at Vulcan. I can't imagine them sitting there trying to negotiate, but if they did Nero may not be able to stop a single ship (as he wasn't with Kelvin) getting that close. Did we see any point-defence on Narada? Spamming fire at the chain may have worked.

[Kuja]

His plan was... what exactly? Die gloriously?

In fairness, it's possible that his plan was to simply make a suicide charge for the chain and take it out, thus keeping Nero from destroying Earth with his red-matter weapon. He didn't need to destroy the whole ship; just that chain. That would buy enough time for reinforcements to show up.

Unless the Narada had backup drills.

[Darth Wong]

His plan was... what exactly? Die gloriously?

In fairness, it's possible that his plan was to simply make a suicide charge for the chain and take it out, thus keeping Nero from destroying Earth with his red-matter weapon. He didn't need to destroy the whole ship; just that chain. That would buy enough time for reinforcements to show up.

Unless the Narada had backup drills.

OK, let's amend that to "could buy enough time for reinforcements to show up." We don't know for certain, but it would certainly buy some time. Even if they have another spare, it would take time to deploy it.

[erik_t]

I think the entertaining appearance of the chain was representative of the fact that it was jury-rigged in the first place. They might have had extra drill heads, but the giant chain thing wouldn't be needed for their regular mining missions; I don't know why they'd have the same collection of spare parts they'd need to cobble together another one.

[Gramzamber]

This universe's Enterprise seems to have a fair amount of shuttles doesn't it?
Perhaps one plan would be to remote-pilot suicide shuttles into the drill platform while the Enterprise provides point defense.
This might provide some more survivability since Nero's missiles seemed to have a bit of trouble with small targets.

I think the entertaining appearance of the chain was representative of the fact that it was jury-rigged in the first place. They might have had extra drill heads, but the giant chain thing wouldn't be needed for their regular mining missions; I don't know why they'd have the same collection of spare parts they'd need to cobble together another one.

According to the Countdown comic, the Narada had a mining chain like the one in the movie which is destroyed at the beginning IIRC.
But then since it is a comic feel free to take that with a large Siberian salt mine.

[Darth Wong]

Mind you, with the magic sudden increase in effectiveness of Enterprise's point-defense weapons and precipitous drop in effectiveness of Narada's weapons for the final battle, it's possible that any strategy may have succeeded

[Xon]

To be fair, the Enterprise wasn't actually getting shot at by torps which ignore thier shields and did massive damage.

They where just shooting down torps aimed at another ship. I guess the fleet which warped into Vulcan got caught with thier pants down and didn't have the chance where as the Enterpirse raised shield while at warp and went to battlestations before dropping out.

[erik_t]

One wonders if the preparations for battleworthiness are much more prolonged in the reboot (ie not a split-second after "Shields up!"). This would explain well how the fleet got so badly pantsed compared to Kelvin or Enterprise.

[Darth Wong]

One wonders if the preparations for battleworthiness are much more prolonged in the reboot (ie not a split-second after "Shields up!"). This would explain well how the fleet got so badly pantsed compared to Kelvin or Enterprise.

Then again, it would beg the question of why they sent so many warships at once (literally every single ship they had available to protect Earth) if they didn't think they should expect danger. I have problems with the idea that such a forceful response would arrive at Vulcan with a cavalier "let's assume this will be a walk in the park" attitude.

Of course, we already know that the captains were kept in the dark about complete destruction of a Klingon fleet in the days leading up to this incident, for no intelligible reason. Still, you'd think at least one of them would think to ask: "why are we rushing an entire battlegroup to investigate a weather disturbance?"

[erik_t]

I don't know; perhaps this would have conflicted with humanitarian concerns. Perhaps the shields etc take some considerable time to come down as well as go up, and while the ship was standing down from a combat posture, it would be unable to use transporters and launch shuttles. Thus if the mission was primarily humanitarian in nature, keeping defenses down might be a reasonable course of action.

And to answer the question before it's asked, yes I'm not pleased to need to jump through this many mental hoops. So far though, I think it's the best explanation in terms of internal consistency and not making the entire leadership a bunch of blubbering fools.

[Gramzamber]

I believe they were all sent in anticipation of a possible planetary evacuation.
Perhaps these ships were mostly older junkers waiting for refits or working as planetary security hastily sent to Vulcan while most of the real ships aside from the Enterprise were busy.
They were after all filling up a lot of the ships with cadets fresh out of the academy after all.

[The Romulan Republic]

I have not been given the responsibilty to command a trillion dollar warship with the capacity to torch defenseless worlds and potentially kill billions if I go rogue. However, if I was in such a position I'd obey orders- the Federation survives because its individual species do not put themselves first- if we lose that we lose the Federation.

I don't think its that clear cut. I hate to rely on the on-screen dialog, since I don't have a copy of the script on hand, but if I recall correctly, Spock was following Pike's final orders by meeting up with the fleet, correct? Which Kirk countered by claiming that Pike had also ordered them to rescue him: which they would be doing by pursuing Nero. So, it could be argued that Kirk was not (at least in his mind) disobeying Pike's orders, so much as he was simply interpreting them differently from Spock.

Also, as Gramzamber observed near the top of the page, Earth really does seem critical to the Federation. Presuming these things are unchanged from the original timeline, it contains Starfleet HQ, the Academy (definitely, as it is shown in the film), and the Federation Council. Their are also some major shipyards in-system (since in this continuity they build starships on the ground, the shipyards might all be lost with Earth). And of course, its a founding member that presumably has great political and cultural significance.

In other words, losing Earth would be a very, very serious blow to the Federation. And one can make the case (morally if not legal) that in rare, extreme circumstances, a soldier should be willing to disobey orders if nessissary.

A captain first duty is to the Federation, not their homeworld. It would be like a general disobeying order in order to save his hometown, even if it risks getting all his men killed for no gain. Isn't disobeying a direct order a court marshalable offense?

It wasn't like a general disobeying a direct order in order to save his hometown.

It was likely a general disobeying (or if we wish to be charitable, reinterpreting) a direct order in order to save Washington DC, the Pentagon, and West Point.

Losing Earth isn't the worst scenario. Losing all the founding members worlds is. What would happen if the fleet split up with each captain going to defend their own home world?

The other captains in the fleet weren't nessissarily in the same circumstances. All indications were that Nero was heading for Earth, so for them to rush off to their various home worlds would be pointless. And the impression I got was that the fleet heading for Earth was one unified force, not a bunch of scattered star ships being pulled together to fight Nero. So I don't think any other captain in the fleet would nessissarily have been in a situation where he would have to make the same decission to either rush off on his own or go join the fleet.

Except that in TWOK Kirk did not rely upon it- he was put into a situation and he latched onto that as an escape. Given that it looked like a gas giant his plan depended on the odds of finding a gas giant in a solar system which is pretty good.

By contrast Kirk in the movie made a plan in advance that required a miracle to work.

I agree that the two situations aren't perfectly equivalent.

His plan was... what exactly? Die gloriously?

What exact battle plan he would have used without transwarp beaming we don't know, obviously. One must presume he (or Spock, had Spock listened to him) would have come up with something other than "die." Would it have worked? Again, no way to know.

I like Gramzamber's idea of ramming shuttles into the drill while using the Enterprise for point-defense, but again their is no way to know if it would have actually worked.

[Simon_Jester]

Then again, it would beg the question of why they sent so many warships at once (literally every single ship they had available to protect Earth) if they didn't think they should expect danger. I have problems with the idea that such a forceful response would arrive at Vulcan with a cavalier "let's assume this will be a walk in the park" attitude.

Of course, we already know that the captains were kept in the dark about complete destruction of a Klingon fleet in the days leading up to this incident, for no intelligible reason. Still, you'd think at least one of them would think to ask: "why are we rushing an entire battlegroup to investigate a weather disturbance?"

Confusion in the chain of command, garbled orders, charge of the Light Brigade sort of thing, maybe?

[Samuel]

Which Kirk countered by claiming that Pike had also ordered them to rescue him: which they would be doing by pursuing Nero.

What happened to the last captian Nero parlayed with?

Also, as Gramzamber observed near the top of the page, Earth really does seem critical to the Federation. Presuming these things are unchanged from the original timeline, it contains Starfleet HQ, the Academy (definitely, as it is shown in the film), and the Federation Council. Their are also some major shipyards in-system (since in this continuity they build starships on the ground, the shipyards might all be lost with Earth). And of course, its a founding member that presumably has great political and cultural significance.

I'd have to argue against this. Earth has only had warp drive for 170 years- the other civilizations are alot older and presumably also built up. In fact I'm pretty sure that Earth got to be the capital because none of the other founding members trusted each other (if someone watched Enterprise please correct me).

In other words, losing Earth would be a very, very serious blow to the Federation. And one can make the case (morally if not legal) that in rare, extreme circumstances, a soldier should be willing to disobey orders if nessissary.

Only when receiving an illegal order or when in possession of information that those giving the order do not have.

The other captains in the fleet weren't nessissarily in the same circumstances. All indications were that Nero was heading for Earth, so for them to rush off to their various home worlds would be pointless. And the impression I got was that the fleet heading for Earth was one unified force, not a bunch of scattered star ships being pulled together to fight Nero.

Except after Earth which world would Nero hit next? It doesn't look like they were preparing to defend Earth because if they were they would be gathering at Earth.

So I don't think any other captain in the fleet would nessissarily have been in a situation where he would have to make the same decission to either rush off on his own or go join the fleet.

I'm assuming that this is like TBoBW where they aren't just gathering the main fleet but every other available ship. Also, unless they have some sort of interdictor they can't really stop ships from leaving.

One must presume he (or Spock, had Spock listened to him) would have come up with something other than "die." Would it have worked? Again, no way to know.

Nero had 20 years to plan vengence. While he wasn't the brightest bulb I'm pretty sure his plan was something that couldn't be shot down so easily.

[Simon_Jester]

In other words, losing Earth would be a very, very serious blow to the Federation. And one can make the case (morally if not legal) that in rare, extreme circumstances, a soldier should be willing to disobey orders if nessissary.

Only when receiving an illegal order or when in possession of information that those giving the order do not have.

Which, in this case, is true. Those giving the order (Captain Pike) did not know at the time that Nero was planning to blow up Earth. For that matter, when he gave the order, there was as yet no evidence that Nero was planning to blow up Vulcan, either. Pike might well have given different orders if he had known that the Narada was armed with a planet-killing weapon, as opposed to some big honking drilling laser.

[Gramzamber]

I like Gramzamber's idea of ramming shuttles into the drill while using the Enterprise for point-defense, but again their is no way to know if it would have actually worked.

It seems to me that Nero always performed the poorest when attempting to shoot down small targets, both with the Kelvin's escape shuttles which the Kelvin managed to both save and ram into the Narada, and later Spock's ship while the Enterprise helped. Possibly because his missiles take far longer to reach small, fast moving targets as opposed to large capital ships.
Knowing about the first incident it would be logical to try it, Nero not being any kind of real tactician would possibly panic and try all out to kill the shuttles while not using all his firepower against the Enterprise.

Which Kirk countered by claiming that Pike had also ordered them to rescue him: which they would be doing by pursuing Nero.

What happened to the last captian Nero parlayed with?

Wishful thinking perhaps, but nonetheless true.
Also, were they monitoring Pike's lifesigns like the Kelvin monitored it's Captain's?
If so they'd know Pike is still alive as of the last time they were near the Narada.

I'd have to argue against this. Earth has only had warp drive for 170 years- the other civilizations are alot older and presumably also built up. In fact I'm pretty sure that Earth got to be the capital because none of the other founding members trusted each other (if someone watched Enterprise please correct me).

While this is true (and it's part of what irks me about Enterprise) the fact remains that most of the Federation's vital operations are situated on Earth and have been since it's founding. Including as Republic points out the ground based shipyards. I don't imagine orbital shipyards would fare much better either.
So taking out Earth kills the Federation's leadership, it's member world representatives, it's military commanders, it's primary training facility and a large portion of it's ability to build new starships along with the moral blow of having he capital crushed into nothingness.

[The Romulan Republic]

What happened to the last captian Nero parlayed with?

Doesn't mean the same will nessissarily happen to the next captain. Nor does it change the fact that Pike's orders could be interpreted as including "rescue me."

Also, I'll echo Gramzamber again in that, if they were monitoring life signs, they would know Pike might still be alive.

I'd have to argue against this. Earth has only had warp drive for 170 years- the other civilizations are alot older and presumably also built up. In fact I'm pretty sure that Earth got to be the capital because none of the other founding members trusted each other (if someone watched Enterprise please correct me).

Doesn't change the fact that they have a lot of their government structure and a lot of material resources on Earth. Their are older and bigger cities in America than Washington. Does that mean its loss wouldn't matter to America?

Only when receiving an illegal order or when in possession of information that those giving the order do not have.

Already addressed by someone else. I don't have anything more to add on this point.

Except after Earth which world would Nero hit next? It doesn't look like they were preparing to defend Earth because if they were they would be gathering at Earth.

The film states they won't get their in time, not, so far as I can recall, that they were going somewhere else.

I'm assuming that this is like TBoBW where they aren't just gathering the main fleet but every other available ship. Also, unless they have some sort of interdictor they can't really stop ships from leaving.

Couldn't they engage a ship at warp? I'm pretty sure we've seen FTL chases with weapons fire in the original timeline, if rarely. Voyager's Dark Fronteir Part II for one, though that was transwarp, not warp.

[Batman]

Doesn't change the fact that they have a lot of their government structure and a lot of material resources on Earth.

Do they in this new continuity? We know that at least one non-trivial shipyard and Starfleet Academy facilities are on Earth and that's about it. That Earth is central to the functioning of the Federation is a holdover from classic Trek that I don't see the new movie supporting (OR explicitly contradicting, but...)

Their are older and bigger cities in America than Washington. Does that mean its loss wouldn't matter to America?

MATTER? Yes. Cripple it for keeps the way the loss of Earth would cripple oldTrek UFP? Probably not. And that presupposes Earth is as important in the new continuity as it was in the old.

[Simon_Jester]

Doesn't change the fact that they have a lot of their government structure and a lot of material resources on Earth.

Do they in this new continuity? We know that at least one non-trivial shipyard and Starfleet Academy facilities are on Earth and that's about it. That Earth is central to the functioning of the Federation is a holdover from classic Trek that I don't see the new movie supporting (OR explicitly contradicting, but...)

Their are older and bigger cities in America than Washington. Does that mean its loss wouldn't matter to America?

MATTER? Yes. Cripple it for keeps the way the loss of Earth would cripple oldTrek UFP? Probably not. And that presupposes Earth is as important in the new continuity as it was in the old.

Consider, though: Earth may not be absolutely critical to the survival of the Federation, but the USS Enterprise isn't either. If Kirk expects to be able to significantly delay Nero's destruction of Earth, let alone stop it outright, it could easily be worth the sacrifice of his entire command to achieve that goal. One ship is worth less than one planet, or even a fractional improvement in the odds of saving one planet.

[Gramzamber]

From TOS to VOY Earth has remained the very heart of the Federation. However much this "eggs in one basket" approach may have been questioned by the various potentially planet-killing attacks on Earth over the years.

I see no reason why this should be different in the new continuity, especially as nothing contradicts this and even more evidence is thrown in to support it with the ground based shipyards.

Again, even if other member worlds have vital facilities, after the loss of both Vulcan and Earth they might just for the sake of survival attempt to cut ties with the Federation and declare independence, hoping that this will spare them Nero's wrath.

[Simon_Jester]

For that matter, the loss of Vulcan and Earth, even if Nero suddenly disappears from the scene, would probably leave the remaining Federation worlds easy pickings for the Klingons and Romulans. Or at least the Romulans; Nero might go off and wreck some Klingon stuff while he's here.