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In the Star Trek series its shown that Data and Lore are unique beings, unable to be replicated and used by the Federation.

My question is simple: why?

Voyager shows that the Federation is capable of creating artificial intelligences capable of independent action which can progress beyond their original programming in the Doctor, something that was originally shown as a fluke of programming in the Next Generation Episode where the Enterprise computer created Doctor Moriarty.

So, if the Federation can create a reliable A.I. which uses their holodeck technology (as well as presumably expensive and somewhat sensitive equipment to project the holobeings), why can't they use the same programming in humanoid body, aka, an android? Presumably, the only size issue seems to be due to holoprojectors, while the memory requirements for an android shouldn't be too large, as they seem to take up a small amount of system resources aboard starships and space stations.

In addition, other artificial intelligences have been shown to be created by the Federation which did not require large amounts of resources, such as the nanites and the Exocomps.

So I ask you... what exactly is stopping them?

I think the biggest problem was the positronic brain that Soong developed (and why Data and Lore are described as 'Soong-type' androids). Commander Maddox wanted to dismantle Data in "Measure of a Man" in particular his brain, because that was the one area that he really needed advancement in. Even Data couldn't replicate it perfectly when he built his daughter Lal in "The Offspring".

Stofsk wrote:I think the biggest problem was the positronic brain that Soong developed (and why Data and Lore are described as 'Soong-type' androids). Commander Maddox wanted to dismantle Data in "Measure of a Man" in particular his brain, because that was the one area that he really needed advancement in. Even Data couldn't replicate it perfectly when he built his daughter Lal in "The Offspring".

Yes... which is why I'm wondering why they didn't say "fuck" the Soong type android and build something else.

What good is a positronic brain you can't copy, especially when you can create an artificial intelligence without it?

Technically speaking, the Federation can do it with their optronic chips and bio neural gel pack technology, as evidenced by the Doctor and others.

AMT wrote:What good is a positronic brain you can't copy, especially when you can create an artificial intelligence without it?

IIRC, I think Data made some point about his life expectancy but I can't remember which episode; something to the effect that he's effectively immortal. Contrast this to the Doctor, who by Voyager's third season was showing signs that his continual operation was beginning to affect the program and whatever data storage it relied on (to the point they had to finagle a solution for him or risk losing him - I believe it was in "The Swarm").

That's my best guess. A positronic brain might give a far greater ability for the hypothetical android to store memories and information and maintain itself for centuries, but anything else requires constant maintenance or periodic upgrades. That said, I don't know what happened in Voyager because I stopped watching it after the third season. I do recall the Doctor got some advanced technology at some point but I thought that was only to allow him to beam down to planets.

I thought it was because of the combination of what Data represented? The ability to self learn, his durability, independent function and longevity.

IIRC The Doctor was limited to the ship until he got his fancy plot device tech that let him roam free, the degradation in his programing over time, and the fact that he could only learn what was input into him (Although I think he began doing this on his own. These were all shortcomings that Data did not have. Quite honestly, the Doctor is perhaps even more unique than Data.

I always thought Data was actually unique because he was, essentially, an artificial 'real human brain', capable of learning and growing, instead of being static and easily overwhelmed, like the Mudd episode androids, or capable of learning, but both limited and requiring significant infrastructure to run properly, like the doctor did before his portable emitter. Assuming the he was run entire from the console in the sickbay, his 'components' were still far bigger than the positronic brain, and he was essentially fixed in location and learning capability.

I'd be curious what actually led to the abandonment of robotics for holographic servitors, given the limitations of both, and how Holograms got used later on in the continuity.

Is it impossible to rule out the idea that making people the old fashioned way - i.e. fucking - is still cheaper and easier for the Federation? There's cutting edge research and experiments (which Data and Lore clearly are) vs. mass production.

Broomstick wrote:Is it impossible to rule out the idea that making people the old fashioned way - i.e. fucking - is still cheaper and easier for the Federation? There's cutting edge research and experiments (which Data and Lore clearly are) vs. mass production.

No, but androids could be used for disposable labor, combat situations, dangerous areas that biologicals can't get to. There's no reason for it to be an either/or situation.

But yeah, I didn't know the Doctor actually had to download new skills and information into himself. I thought he actually developed them on his own.

If androids are expensive/difficult to build you won't be using them for "disposable" labor.

Broomstick wrote:Is it impossible to rule out the idea that making people the old fashioned way - i.e. fucking - is still cheaper and easier for the Federation? There's cutting edge research and experiments (which Data and Lore clearly are) vs. mass production.

The fact that Androids have to be replaced- and cost- if something goes wrong is definitely a good reason for why they aren't used.

I was thinking cheapness and ubiquitousness of components was definitely what led to the adoption of the holograms like the EMH, and especially for dangerous situations like mining work or, since a Hologram can do everything a robot can do, with two special extras. One being that if there is a cave in, the Hologram doesn't care unless the emitter is hit, and if the emitter is hit, the Hologram is still unharmed, and emitters can be connected by very lengthy wires to the mainframe.

Now, all that explains why they chose holograms over robots, but not quite why they began developing holograms in the first place, or when and why they specifically abandoned robotics, which seemed to have happened long before the development of 'hard' Hologram tech. Granted 'It costs too damn much' is still a valid reason, it just makes you wonder how the hell the Hologram project got sold.

I think the main issue is miniaturization of the AI. The Doctor and other holodeck-based artificial intelligences use a starship's mainframe computer to get enough processing power. Apart from the lost technology of Soong, the Federation just doesn't have the means to compress an AI computer into a humanoid frame.

Broomstick wrote:Is it impossible to rule out the idea that making people the old fashioned way - i.e. fucking - is still cheaper and easier for the Federation? There's cutting edge research and experiments (which Data and Lore clearly are) vs. mass production.

What the fuck are you talking about? The OP says nothing about replacing people or anything about being cheaper or easier to do so. It asks why the Soong androids are the holy grail when Starfleet/The Federation has shown the ability to make other AI.

Ryushikaze wrote:Now, all that explains why they chose holograms over robots, but not quite why they began developing holograms in the first place, or when and why they specifically abandoned robotics, which seemed to have happened long before the development of 'hard' Hologram tech. Granted 'It costs too damn much' is still a valid reason, it just makes you wonder how the hell the Hologram project got sold.

Perhaps there is some left over resentment from the Eugenics War that keeps people from attempting to create 'supermen' real or otherwise.

I recall an episode of VOY where Janeway was bitching to the doctor about how much hard drive space he was taking up. The doctor in turn was defending various service packs he'd installed as 'necessary to his development', including art and musical skills.

Data never had to justify his ability and will to learn in terms of resource allocation.

Havok wrote:

Broomstick wrote:Is it impossible to rule out the idea that making people the old fashioned way - i.e. fucking - is still cheaper and easier for the Federation? There's cutting edge research and experiments (which Data and Lore clearly are) vs. mass production.

What the fuck are you talking about? The OP says nothing about replacing people or anything about being cheaper or easier to do so. It asks why the Soong androids are the holy grail when Starfleet/The Federation has shown the ability to make other AI.

Why make artificial intelligences at all when it is so easy and cheap to make/replace natural intelligences? Seriously. The only justification for AI is to do things natural intelligences can't.

Hey why make computers when I can just go to the library or use a calculator. Hell, why make calculators. Pencil and paper work just fine and are cheaper. Can you just shut the fuck up, or address the actual question in the OP.

Ted C nailed pretty much the major flaw. AI can be done, but most of their reliable AI is Starship backed technology. Whatever magically ass pulling Soong did, Starfleet as well as every member of the Federation and beyond have yet to duplicate.

As for why? If you so wanted a humanoid form, you could easily build a much more durable form that doesn't need the materials a person uses. For the way Trek works, I can easily see why they'd find that invaluable.

Havok wrote:Hey why make computers when I can just go to the library or use a calculator. Hell, why make calculators. Pencil and paper work just fine and are cheaper. Can you just shut the fuck up, or address the actual question in the OP.

The difference is that calculators and computers do certain things significantly faster than even a trained human being. Thus, their expense is made up for in speed and accuracy in calculations.

What does an AI bring to the table that a natural intelligence doesn't? So far the only thing mentioned is a more durable humanoid form. That's it. But your average Federation mope doesn't need that. Of course, the Federation puts silly light-up touch panels on things that don't need them, either, so I suppose they don't look beyond pretty lights and shiny objects.

Is AI cool? Sure. But frankly Data is wasted in his position at Starfleet. He should be exploring environments hostile to organic humanoids, or doing something else for which he uniquely suited. Building more bodies for Starfleet would be a silly use of AI and the fact the Federation doesn't do this routinely is one of the more realistic parts of that fictional universe.

Broomstick wrote:

Havok wrote:Hey why make computers when I can just go to the library or use a calculator. Hell, why make calculators. Pencil and paper work just fine and are cheaper. Can you just shut the fuck up, or address the actual question in the OP.

The difference is that calculators and computers do certain things significantly faster than even a trained human being. Thus, their expense is made up for in speed and accuracy in calculations.

What does an AI bring to the table that a natural intelligence doesn't? So far the only thing mentioned is a more durable humanoid form. That's it. But your average Federation mope doesn't need that. Of course, the Federation puts silly light-up touch panels on things that don't need them, either, so I suppose they don't look beyond pretty lights and shiny objects.

Is AI cool? Sure. But frankly Data is wasted in his position at Starfleet. He should be exploring environments hostile to organic humanoids, or doing something else for which he uniquely suited. Building more bodies for Starfleet would be a silly use of AI and the fact the Federation doesn't do this routinely is one of the more realistic parts of that fictional universe.

An AI with Data's capabilities on mass production would be an immense gain. It has the benefit of having a better body, has the benefit of literally larger capacity and usage and leaves the humans to do the more mundane tasks.

Also on the note of can or do? Starfleet has said it cannot construct an android like Data. Not that it doesn't, they cannot. Data was so far the only one to come close to any notable success and even then it was regarded a failure. Hell, Starfleet has demonstrated they can do AI well beyond Data, but the question is why no android. And the answer is what Ted C pointed out, compacting the AI. Whatever Soong did they CANNOT repeat.

tim31 wrote:I recall an episode of VOY where Janeway was bitching to the doctor about how much hard drive space he was taking up. The doctor in turn was defending various service packs he'd installed as 'necessary to his development', including art and musical skills.

Data never had to justify his ability and will to learn in terms of resource allocation.

I assume that the Doctor was completely dependent on the ships computer to run and store all his goodies, where Data stores all his stuff in his brain and merely draws power from the ship. So I can see why Janeway would be bitching that he's taking up to much space, Data presumably doesn't draw anymore from the ship then a regular crewman (or close enough for no one to complain).

So, since its been pretty conclusively shown that the main reason is miniaturization, would it then be possible to use the technology from the mobile emitter to create a compact enough storage medium? After all, the emitter itself can store the Doctor's entire program (according to the episode it premiered in, which I can't remember the name to off hand), pulling the Doctor's program out of Voyagers computer system.

Sure, it might take a while to do, but if a 20th century hippie turned evil businessman could reverse engineer it, I don't see why the Feddies can't.

AMT wrote:So, since its been pretty conclusively shown that the main reason is miniaturization, would it then be possible to use the technology from the mobile emitter to create a compact enough storage medium? After all, the emitter itself can store the Doctor's entire program (according to the episode it premiered in, which I can't remember the name to off hand), pulling the Doctor's program out of Voyagers computer system.

Sure, it might take a while to do, but if a 20th century hippie turned evil businessman could reverse engineer it, I don't see why the Feddies can't.

The mobile emitter uses technology that hasn't even been discovered. Literally it's 29th century Federation technology. Hell, it'd be easier to take apart Lore or Data and go from there.

Ghost Rider wrote:

AMT wrote:So, since its been pretty conclusively shown that the main reason is miniaturization, would it then be possible to use the technology from the mobile emitter to create a compact enough storage medium? After all, the emitter itself can store the Doctor's entire program (according to the episode it premiered in, which I can't remember the name to off hand), pulling the Doctor's program out of Voyagers computer system.

Sure, it might take a while to do, but if a 20th century hippie turned evil businessman could reverse engineer it, I don't see why the Feddies can't.

The mobile emitter uses technology that hasn't even been discovered. Literally it's 29th century Federation technology. Hell, it'd be easier to take apart Lore or Data and go from there.

Which is what I originally thought too, until I remembered the episode it premiered in, where a 20th century guy was able to reverse engineer it and understand it to a degree to create computer technology and some fancy gizmos to protect himself sufficiently against Voyager. If he could do it, with no base for that level of technology, I could see the Federation doing something similar.

Edited to add: Was looking at Memory Alpha for the episode synopsis. Apparently the Doctor takes up less than 20% of the database on the Voyager (which can still be a large amount of data), as he was part of the download that Starling was able to initiate against the ship, giving a potential limit to what type of resources are needed to contain him.

AMT wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:

AMT wrote:So, since its been pretty conclusively shown that the main reason is miniaturization, would it then be possible to use the technology from the mobile emitter to create a compact enough storage medium? After all, the emitter itself can store the Doctor's entire program (according to the episode it premiered in, which I can't remember the name to off hand), pulling the Doctor's program out of Voyagers computer system.

Sure, it might take a while to do, but if a 20th century hippie turned evil businessman could reverse engineer it, I don't see why the Feddies can't.

The mobile emitter uses technology that hasn't even been discovered. Literally it's 29th century Federation technology. Hell, it'd be easier to take apart Lore or Data and go from there.

Which is what I originally thought too, until I remembered the episode it premiered in, where a 20th century guy was able to reverse engineer it and understand it to a degree to create computer technology and some fancy gizmos to protect himself sufficiently against Voyager. If he could do it, with no base for that level of technology, I could see the Federation doing something similar.

Edited to add: Was looking at Memory Alpha for the episode synopsis. Apparently the Doctor takes up less than 20% of the database on the Voyager (which can still be a large amount of data), as he was part of the download that Starling was able to initiate against the ship, giving a potential limit to what type of resources are needed to contain him.

Then it's the same writer's fiat that prevents them from reproducing Data. Now I want to seperate for a moment of the stupidity of this.

Data is a product of their technology. Soong for all his aptitude and brillance is still using 23-24th century technology. Whatever he does will be marginal, regardless of how inane Trek wants to be. It also implies that he essentially did all this one his own, with minimal to no outside help, or judgements and somehow outwits the entire corps of Starfleet because...he's just that smart. There is no record of his work regardless of the in depth nature they have of Data, and for some reason no way of engineering whatever Soong did because...well they never give a real reason beyond "IT's LOST TECHNOLOGY!!!!". This would akin to saying we cannot replicate Colonel Sander's secret because it's a secret.

Think about how fucking stupid this is.

Which is why the real answer of why doesn't Starfleet do this is so confounding. Data should not be completely unique technology, yet is. And the logical answer is not appealing because it implies said organization is run by a cat and three dogs.

The reason Data is unique is because they have no data on him to analyze. (They probably have blueprints and schematics that he himself probably provided, but nothing hard) I have no doubt that if that guy that wanted to disassemble Data had gotten his wish, there would be androids a plenty running around. Yes, replicating the positronic 'brain' is the hurdle, but Soong did it three times, (B4, Lore and Data) and Data almost did it once on his first attempt (Lull). I'm sure there will be a story with Lore at some point creating 'brothers'.
As incompetent as Starfleet can be at times, technological advances doesn't seem to fall under the category of their shortcomings so I think they would eventually figure it out.

Havok wrote:The reason Data is unique is because they have no data on him to analyze. (They probably have blueprints and schematics that he himself probably provided, but nothing hard) I have no doubt that if that guy that wanted to disassemble Data had gotten his wish, there would be androids a plenty running around. Yes, replicating the positronic 'brain' is the hurdle, but Soong did it three times, (B4, Lore and Data) and Data almost did it once on his first attempt (Lull). I'm sure there will be a story with Lore at some point creating 'brothers'.
As incompetent as Starfleet can be at times, technological advances doesn't seem to fall under the category of their shortcomings so I think they would eventually figure it out.

The problem is...they do have detailed inside schematics of him. I mean they have it of everyone. Unless he was completely exempt of being probed from any sort of hazards of biological problem when they first picked him up, let alone all the times they scanned and probed him for mishaps on the Enterprise.

Which is also another reason why disassembling him makes less sense other then to go "If I press button A, it activate wire C!". They have everything to provide prototypes and go from there.

Add to everything, they never really go into why the positronic brain is special that it needs Data to be broken down. Yet they have the technology, far vaster resources then one man, and the desire and need for more Data like beings....yet Starfleet just goes "Meh.". This is why Starfleet and by extension the writers are dumbasses.