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A recent discussion about "The Enemy Within" has me thinking about something I remember about "The Cage". In it, Jeffrey Hunter talks about how he's tired of being responsible for 203 lives. Fast forward to Kirk's time, and the Connie has a crew complement of 430 (roughly). So what happened in the ten years between both Captain's command of the Enterprise?

Yes, I am aware of the out-of-universe explanation for this (the details of the setting hadn't been established yet, things were still up in the air). I am more interested in speculating for an in-universe reason as to why or how the Enterprise's crew complement doubled.

Is it, for example, possible that the Enterprise was a prototype or one of the first Connies built, and thus had half the crew and doing a shakedown cruise? Is it possible a refit occurred in between the two time periods? What about being undersupplied with crew? (I doubt this would be the case though) Any ideas?

A refit definitely occurred. The series Enterprise has different engine details and a completely redesigned bridge superstructure, along with a few dozen extra detail changes; there was 80+ hours of work in the redesign before the second pilot started filming.

A shakedown cruise doesn't seem likely considering the time frame. The ship was launched in 2245 and The Cage takes place nearly ten years after; also, if it's a deep-space shakedown cruise, you'd expect more people to be on-board for contingencies, not less.

What about being undersupplied with crew? (I doubt this would be the case though)

It could be a few factors adding up. Maybe Starfleet underestimated losses in the field - in the pilot, the ship just lost a few men on a mission gone bad, and Pike's reaction suggests it wasn't the first time. Maybe she was on a less exploration-oriented patrol and didn't carry a large science staff. Maybe she offloaded non-critical personnel to restaff another ship.

If you want to get really depressing, remember the lines from the TMP novelisation about how 94 crewmen died on the Enterprise and that this was considered a pretty good result for a five-year cruise. 200 lost on a patrol may be par for the course in Pike's time.

Bounty wrote:A refit definitely occurred. The series Enterprise has different engine details and a completely redesigned bridge superstructure, along with a few dozen extra detail changes; there was 80+ hours of work in the redesign before the second pilot started filming.

I gather that. However, the two bridges don't look completely different. They had a different colour screen and the consoles looked like they were modified, but IIRC all the stations remained the same (navigation and helm were where they're supposed to be, Spock's station is still to the Captain's right, comms is still behind him, etc).

Also, a refit would be pretty significant if it actually allowed the crew to be doubled. Extra habitation? Staterooms, life support etc?

A shakedown cruise doesn't seem likely considering the time frame. The ship was launched in 2245 and The Cage takes place nearly ten years after; also, if it's a deep-space shakedown cruise, you'd expect more people to be on-board for contingencies, not less.

Was the 'launched in 2245' established in TOS or in TNG/some other source? Because I don't remember any line in TOS in particular. Pike was referred to as having completed two 5 year missions though.

It could be a few factors adding up. Maybe Starfleet underestimated losses in the field - in the pilot, the ship just lost a few men on a mission gone bad, and Pike's reaction suggests it wasn't the first time. Maybe she was on a less exploration-oriented patrol and didn't carry a large science staff. Maybe she offloaded non-critical personnel to restaff another ship.

If you want to get really depressing, remember the lines from the TMP novelisation about how 94 crewmen died on the Enterprise and that this was considered a pretty good result for a five-year cruise. 200 lost on a patrol may be par for the course in Pike's time.

Those are some good ideas. Could it also be possible that tensions between the Klingons weren't as high in Pike's time as they were in Kirk's? Maybe a lot of the extra hands was to give the Enterprise more combat performance - extra damage control, extra hands in case of boarding. So perhaps it's not just the science crew, though I like that idea too.

I gather that. However, the two bridges don't look completely different. They had a different colour screen and the consoles looked like they were modified, but IIRC all the stations remained the same (navigation and helm were where they're supposed to be, Spock's station is still to the Captain's right, comms is still behind him, etc).

It's not just the interior, the shape and size of the model's superstructure changed quite a bit - unless, of course, this has since been fixed in the remastered episodes.

Was the 'launched in 2245' established in TOS or in TNG/some other source? Because I don't remember any line in TOS in particular. Pike was referred to as having completed two 5 year missions though.

It was set by Roddenberry, used in the Chronology, and appeared on-screen in Enterprise. You can argue that it isn't quite as hard canon as some other facts but for all intents and purposes it's the official, accepted date.

Bounty wrote:It's not just the interior, the shape and size of the model's superstructure changed quite a bit - unless, of course, this has since been fixed in the remastered episodes.

Ah ok. I still don't know what the particulars are, but I'll take your word for it. Although pictures would be nice.

It was set by Roddenberry, used in the Chronology, and appeared on-screen in Enterprise. You can argue that it isn't quite as hard canon as some other facts but for all intents and purposes it's the official, accepted date.

I'm more interested in what "The Cage" implies. It and a lot of TOS was written when things weren't set in stone - "The Enemy Within" discussion being an easy example of this, with the absence of shuttlecraft embarked onboard the Enterprise when they could have been useful - and I'm more intrigued by the possibilities of these sorts of details being 'up in the air' rather than referring to things like the Chronology, or Enterprise, or whatever Roddenberry thought (which I don't really give a shit about, to be honest, I don't particularly think he was what made Trek great).

Pilot version: Tall bridge dome, no skylight visible, dark-red Bussard collectors with spikes, large deflector dish.



Series version: Flat bridge dome, swirly-light nacelles without spikes, different markings, small deflector.



The back end of the nacelles was also redesigned.

It's not that big a change, but there's enough here to suggest she spent some time getting upgraded between missions.

I'm more interested in what "The Cage" implies.

Going only by The Cage the Enterprise is somewhere between a few and 18 years old - she's been out a while (not sure where you get the two five-year missions from), but she's using technology unfamiliar to a crew that crashed 18 years earlier.

Pilot version: Tall bridge dome, no skylight visible, dark-red Bussard collectors with spikes, large deflector dish.



Series version: Flat bridge dome, swirly-light nacelles without spikes, different markings, small deflector.



The back end of the nacelles was also redesigned.

It's not that big a change, but there's enough here to suggest she spent some time getting upgraded between missions.

I'm more interested in what "The Cage" implies.

Going only by The Cage the Enterprise is somewhere between a few and 18 years old - she's been out a while (not sure where you get the two five-year missions from), but she's using technology unfamiliar to a crew that crashed 18 years earlier.

(Completely random aside: I was browsing the The Cage article at Memory Alpha; one of the actors in that episode was one of nine Star Trek cast members born in the nineteenth century. How odd is it that you can be born in the year Jesse James and Charles Darwin died, and end up playing a guy on a show about a spaceship and rayguns?

Didn't Pike also recently have that issue on Rigel? If it was a larger military operation severe losses could have occurred. Also why he was being protective enough to say something like that.

Ah nutsack, could someone take that double post out back?

Didn't Pike also recently have that issue on Rigel?

IIRC he only mentioned two dead and half a dozen wounded, but if those numbers were par for the course on away mission (his reaction certainly seemed to imply so), they can quickly add up.

Bounty wrote:Pilot version: Tall bridge dome, no skylight visible, dark-red Bussard collectors with spikes, large deflector dish.

Series version: Flat bridge dome, swirly-light nacelles without spikes, different markings, small deflector.

The back end of the nacelles was also redesigned.

It's not that big a change, but there's enough here to suggest she spent some time getting upgraded between missions.

I like the first version. Spikey nacelles and huge fuck-off dish FTW.

I'm more interested in what "The Cage" implies.

Going only by The Cage the Enterprise is somewhere between a few and 18 years old - she's been out a while (not sure where you get the two five-year missions from), but she's using technology unfamiliar to a crew that crashed 18 years earlier.

There was a throw-away line in "The Menagerie" that puts the events that happened in "The Cage" as occurring 13 years prior to the episode. Memory Alpha says he had a long tour of 11 years as Captain of the Enterprise.

(Completely random aside: I was browsing the The Cage article at Memory Alpha; one of the actors in that episode was one of nine Star Trek cast members born in the nineteenth century. How odd is it that you can be born in the year Jesse James and Charles Darwin died, and end up playing a guy on a show about a spaceship and rayguns?

That's pretty cool.

Conversely, there are people who watched TOS in its original run who have personal communication devices significantly more advanced than as seen on the show. My Nokia 5800 has most of the features of a TNG era PADD.

The crew increase could also be better utilization of space from a refit? maybe the consoles look the same, but they're just consoles, computer equipment could have shrank, advancements in transporter techology could have reduced the neccesity for as many shuttles resulting in a reduction in the size of the shuttle bay and the addition of labrotories? Maybe Engineering is smaller?

Given that modern day aircraft carriers house some 6000 people on a ship that likely has less internal volume than the saucer section of a Connie I seriously doubt lack of space was the reason for the smaller crew complement.

Batman wrote:Given that modern day aircraft carriers house some 6000 people on a ship that likely has less internal volume than the saucer section of a Connie I seriously doubt lack of space was the reason for the smaller crew complement.

Yeah but do aircraft officers all get their own cabins? According to memory Alpha's description of the technical manual the 1701 is a GIANT waste of space. the Engineering hull doesn't een HAVE crew quarters, and the saucer houses all kinds of other crap as well as living space. Crew quarters is sharing space with the impulse engines, the junior officers are next to the water pumps etc. maybe the Kirk era enterprise just has a more efficient water management system giving twice as much crew space. Sure they could fit a lot more in, but they don't....

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Trek_Blueprints

Deck Plans 0-1-2-3-4-5 (Top Side Views) as follows:
Deck 0: Upper Sensor Platform
Deck 1: Bridge (with enlarged detail)
Deck 2: Science Laboratories – High Energy, Geology, Ion Study, Chemistry, Biology, Science Officer's Office, Physics [Upper Level]
Deck 3: Science Laboratories – Botany, Communications, Special Studies, Cosmology, Physics [Lower Level]; Photon Torpedo Banks
Deck 4: Junior Officers' Quarters; Fresh Water Tanks & Pumping Machinery
Deck 5: Officers' Quarters; Saucer Section Emergency Battery Rooms; Upper Phaser Bank Rooms
[edit] Sheet 7Deck 6 Plan - Crew's Quarters and Engineering/Impulse Engines Power Units – Upper Section

Bounty wrote:

Didn't Pike also recently have that issue on Rigel?

IIRC he only mentioned two dead and half a dozen wounded, but if those numbers were par for the course on away mission (his reaction certainly seemed to imply so), they can quickly add up.

Three dead, seven wounded.

My own thought would be that the increased crew was a result in the change of Enterprise's mission. Under Pike, she seems to have been patrolling Federation space. Under Kirk, she was exploring new territory, so an increased science crew would make sense.

And heck, it is possible that a high rate of death was accepted and expected - Kirk lost 12 crew in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" alone, which is roughly 3% of the crew, and that was a relatively minor incident.

The Dark wrote:
And heck, it is possible that a high rate of death was accepted and expected - Kirk lost 12 crew in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" alone, which is roughly 3% of the crew, and that was a relatively minor incident.

Counting what's listed on memory alpha, Kirk lost 55 crew members during the course of TOS. That's about an eighth of the crew.

My guess is the Constitution class was originally designed around a crew of approximately 200, but able to support twice this number in case it's necessary, e.g., to support a Marine Expeditionary Force, to evacuate refugees from a FUBAR planet or space station, etc. As for why the crew was initially small, Starfleet probably intended to shrink starship crews by employing lots and lots of automated systems, only to learn these systems DO NOT WORK, forcing them to reverse this decision. (The US Navy had similar intentions for the Zumwalt class destroyer, and ran into similar problems.)

Sidewinder wrote:My guess is the Constitution class was originally designed around a crew of approximately 200, but able to support twice this number in case it's necessary, e.g., to support a Marine Expeditionary Force, to evacuate refugees from a FUBAR planet or space station, etc. As for why the crew was initially small, Starfleet probably intended to shrink starship crews by employing lots and lots of automated systems, only to learn these systems DO NOT WORK, forcing them to reverse this decision. (The US Navy had similar intentions for the Zumwalt class destroyer, and ran into similar problems.)

The later refits did reduce the crew sizes once more, from what I've read from Memory Alpha.