StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Hey there. I'm a newbie, and I thought I'd start out by trying to quantify the warp speeds of the nuTrek film--I don't think this has been tried here, but if it has, forgive me. Anyway, here's what we know:

*According to Memory Alpha, Vulcan is 'a little over' 16 light years from Earth
*In the film, Chekov states, almost immediately after leaving spacedock if we take this at face value, that they will arrive in 'three minutes'. Now, IIRC, it takes them slightly longer, but this could possibly be due to either slowing down over their uncertainty, or Chekov screwing up. Either way, I don't remember the actual time it took them, so let's work with what we've got.
*If we take Chekov's statement at face value, then this places their speed at 1881161599999999 or 1.881162e+15 miles per hour...I think. Because I'm kinda sucky at calcs like this, I was wondering if you could point out any mistakes I've made and how it compares to previous ST Warp Drives. Thanks!

Well the immediate problem is the distance from Vulcan to Earth. Enterprise may say 16LY, but whether that's applicable to this AU is anyone's guess. Personally, I don't think nuST has anything to do with the original franchise. The Monsterprise is just too inconsistent.

Also, as far as speed is concerned, its easier to express FTL speeds as multiples of c.

16LY in 3 minutes is ~2,805,000c. That's significantly faster than both TOS (~200,000c) and TNG era (1,000 - 20,000c for max sustainable cruise to Warp 9.9) speeds.

Srelex wrote:*In the film, Chekov states, almost immediately after leaving spacedock if we take this at face value, that they will arrive in 'three minutes'. Now, IIRC, it takes them slightly longer, but this could possibly be due to either slowing down over their uncertainty, or Chekov screwing up. Either way, I don't remember the actual time it took them, so let's work with what we've got.

When exactly does he say this? Is their a cut between when they go to warp and when he says this? If so, how do we know that the film progressed in real time, and that more time did not pass between going to warp and Chekov saying this?

*If we take Chekov's statement at face value, then this places their speed at 1881161599999999 or 1.881162e+15 miles per hour...I think. Because I'm kinda sucky at calcs like this, I was wondering if you could point out any mistakes I've made and how it compares to previous ST Warp Drives. Thanks!

Another, more concise way to put it would be "a little over five light years per minute."

Now what really interests me is how this stacks up to Star Wars hyperdrive, though I suppose that's a question for another forum. Actually, I think I'll go try to work that out now.

Vympel wrote:Well the immediate problem is the distance from Vulcan to Earth. Enterprise may say 16LY, but whether that's applicable to this AU is anyone's guess.

Its pretty strongly implied that only events after the Narada's arrival changed. Unless the formation of the Galaxy happened differently or something...

I really don't think it's supposed to be a literal three minutes. The editing is a little wonky there to keep the energy level up. Kirk has time to recover from being sedated and McCoy has time to change his uniform. THere's certainly an opportunity for time to pass before Pike talks to Chekov.

It's still some pretty wicked FTL, even if Vulcan is at Proxima Centauri and the time frame is closer to an hour.

Amendment: ok, I am actually watching the movie right now and Sulu reports that they've achieved maximum warp right before Pike tells Chekov to give the announcement. So it's a close shave, unless it takes the E a good while to get to max warp.

They certainly don't get back to Earth that fast, unless it takes Nero a much longer time to fight his way into Earth airspace while the E is headed to the Laurentian System and Kirk's dicking around on Delta Vega.

The editing is quite treacherous, specially considering the amount of time it takes for Nero to get to Earth on the way back, and he is supposed to have advanced warp drives from the future.

Vympel wrote:That's significantly faster than both TOS (~200,000c) and TNG era (1,000 - 20,000c for max sustainable cruise to Warp 9.9) speeds.

Wait, TOS was faster than TNG? What happened?

Anguirus wrote:Amendment: ok, I am actually watching the movie right now and Sulu reports that they've achieved maximum warp right before Pike tells Chekov to give the announcement. So it's a close shave, unless it takes the E a good while to get to max warp.

They certainly don't get back to Earth that fast, unless it takes Nero a much longer time to fight his way into Earth airspace while the E is headed to the Laurentian System and Kirk's dicking around on Delta Vega.

Wasn't the Enterprise damaged at Vulcan when it collided with some debris and then got hit by one of Nero's torpedos? I can't recall what it was that was damaged, but if one of the affected systems was the warp drive, they might not have been able to go at maximum warp, in addition to heading towards the Laurentian system (wherever that is) before altering course.

LordOskuro wrote:The editing is quite treacherous, specially considering the amount of time it takes for Nero to get to Earth on the way back, and he is supposed to have advanced warp drives from the future.

Advanced warp drives from the original TNG timeline? Ie, a different and more technologically backward timeline?

Wait, TOS was faster than TNG? What happened?

TNG writers didn't do their research?

The Romulan Republic wrote:Advanced warp drives from the original TNG timeline? Ie, a different and more technologically backward timeline?

Yet both the warp drive and weapons of the Narada and the Jellyfish are similar to the ones of the new continuity. Trying to rationalize the difference in visuals (ship sizes/designs and technology) just as changes in the timeline doesn't work out, I've taken it to be what it has always been, a reimagining/reboot of the franchise (a different universe altogether, if you'd like). And within this version of the franchise, the Narada is stated to be technologically superior.

The Romulan Republic wrote:they might not have been able to go at maximum warp

This point is dubious. On one hand, Kirk suggests boosting the engines beyond their regular capacity so they can overtake the Narada, on the other, Spock tells him that the engineering crews are busy fixing plasma leaks due to combat damage, so it could be either way, really.

Although the dialog about needing to boost the E's warp drive might suggest that the Narada is indeed faster, but it isn't clear enough on that regard.

For the sake of examples, we also know the time frame between the battle between the Narada and the Klingon fleet (supposedly around Rura Penthe) and their arrival on Vulcan (can't remember now, but it was like a day or so).

The first scene on the ship after jumping to warp is Bones sedating Kirk. We then see the bridge where Sulu reports maximum warp and Chekov starts the mission briefing saying they will arrive "in three minutes". at the end of the broadcast, Kirk jumps up and Bones has changed.

The only wiggle room is between the ship leaving the dock and reaching maximum warp, and between the ship reaching the Vulcan system itself (which is what the 'three minute' counter may refer to) and the ship actually dropping out of warp near the planet. But we do actually have a hard number of three minutes for the solar system-Vulcan system trip, and no reason whatsoever to assume the planet is in a different location - especially since 40 Eridani A is already close to Earth and I doubt there are many suitable systems closer by.

The return trip shouldn't be taken as a marker of max speed since it's explicitly stated that the ship's warp engines are damaged and that it would take some effort to even reach warp 4. It's brought up when the crew discuss the warp-into-Titan plan.

Wait, TOS was faster than TNG? What happened?

TOS was ignored. There's only two explicit, quantifiable times when time/distance is given in the entire series, so you really can't blame them. The speeds in TNG/DS9/VOY are all far more consistent with each other.

As for how it stacks up against hyperdrive, its slower than the greatest film examples - Darth Maul's Tatooine/Coruscant trip, Darth Sidious' Coruscant/Mustafar trip, and the Republic fleet's Coruscant/Utapau trip are all much faster.

Vympel wrote:

Wait, TOS was faster than TNG? What happened?

TOS was ignored. There's only two explicit, quantifiable times when time/distance is given in the entire series, so you really can't blame them. The speeds in TNG/DS9/VOY are all far more consistent with each other.

As for how it stacks up against hyperdrive, its slower than the greatest film examples - Darth Maul's Tatooine/Coruscant trip, Darth Sidious' Coruscant/Mustafar trip, and the Republic fleet's Coruscant/Utapau trip are all much faster.

Can I ask by what degree slower? How long would it take to travel across the galaxy with nuTrek FTL?

Darth Maul's trip in excess of 33,000LY (Coruscant is 10,000LY from the Core, Tatooine is 43,000LY, so at least 33,000LY, but its actually more since Coruscant is on the other side of the Core from Tatooine) took no more than 18 hours, assuming he left immediately after getting his mission from Sidious to go to Tatooine: 16,071,279c

Darth Sidious' trip in excess of 43,000LY (same thing, Mustafar is 53,000LY from the Core) took no more than 30 minutes, and thats being wildly conservative given the chronology of the film (Sidious had already arrived at Mustafar as Obi-Wan was leaving): in excess of 750,000,000c.

Commander Cody's fleet waited at Coruscant until Obi Wan signalled for them to come to Utapau, a trip of over 41,000LY. That also couldn't have taken more than an hour (i.e. the time it took for Obi-Wan's astromech to return to Coruscant, signal the fleet, whilst Obi-Wan was getting his pet lizard and infiltrating the Separatist meeting- also really conservative): almost 360,000,000c

As for traveling (I assume you mean cross) the galaxy with nuTrek FTL, I dunno. Trek ships can't sustain maximum warp indefinitely.

Just wondering, could it be argued that there's a noticeable time distortion bewteen the outside and inside of the ship? Maybe it was 3 minutes for the crew, but a longer time for the rest of the universe. One fact that could hint at this is how awfully fast the fleet is obliterated by the Narada, I mean, the time it took for Sulu to go to warp wasn't even enough for a full torpedo barrage to hit the fleet.

LordOskuro wrote:Just wondering, could it be argued that there's a noticeable time distortion bewteen the outside and inside of the ship? Maybe it was 3 minutes for the crew, but a longer time for the rest of the universe. One fact that could hint at this is how awfully fast the fleet is obliterated by the Narada, I mean, the time it took for Sulu to go to warp wasn't even enough for a full torpedo barrage to hit the fleet.

Perhaps the Narada had weapons it didn't deploy the other engagements we saw it in for whatever reasons--power consumption--or after pulling off missile barrages to rival Macross, it had to conserve its supply of those torpedoes. Although this is utter speculation, so make of it what you will. I would think that simply slowing down the Enterprise in light of the uncertainty over the tranmissions would be a more logical explanation, given that the above isn't suggested in the film or in other Star Trek media. After all, if that was the case, then Scotty's transporter trick gains a whole new level of complexity.

Actually, it makes Scotty's trick a bit easier, since the ship would be moving slower through realspace, and thus it'd be closer.

As for the Narada having other energy efficient weapons that could instahit the fleet, why weren't those deployed when Nero wanted Spock dead? Specially the second time when he ordered to throw everything they had at him (since they were endangered by the collision course).

LordOskuro wrote:Actually, it makes Scotty's trick a bit easier, since the ship would be moving slower through realspace, and thus it'd be closer.

As for the Narada having other energy efficient weapons that could instahit the fleet, why weren't those deployed when Nero wanted Spock dead? Specially the second time when he ordered to throw everything they had at him (since they were endangered by the collision course).

Spock and Kirk did trash and kill a lot during their insertion aboard the ship, and it's concievable that the mechanisms for such a thing could have been damaged in the previous battles...but as this is all hypothetical, it's rather moot. The explanation that they had simply expended a lot of their torpedoes is simpler.

Besides, I suppose we could try and work out the actual time by studying the DVD--btw, did you mean to say that it was 3 minutes for the universe, but a longer time for the crew? That would make slightly more sense, especially as I think their bridge conversation, added with Chekov's announcement and Kirk's running around, lasted a bit more than that. 3 minutes or no 3 minutes, the fact remains that the Narada trashed that flotilla quite quickly.

Srelex wrote:*According to Memory Alpha, Vulcan is 'a little over' 16 light years from Earth

Not that Memory Alpha is a bad source, but does it specify how they arrived at that figure? I can't remember a single instance in Star Trek of that distance ever being specified.

Srelex wrote:In the film, Chekov states, almost immediately after leaving spacedock if we take this at face value, that they will arrive in 'three minutes'. Now, IIRC, it takes them slightly longer, but this could possibly be due to either slowing down over their uncertainty, or Chekov screwing up. Either way, I don't remember the actual time it took them, so let's work with what we've got.

I have to say that three minutes is right out. I don't remember exactly what Chekov said, but I do know that Kirk was unconscious on a cot in sickbay for an unspecified period of time before they arrived at Vulcan, and after waking up he still had time to hunt down Uhura, get some details about the distress calls from the Klingon border, and then work his way to the bridge to inform Captain Pike before they arrived.

And I don't think that Kirk was out for just a minute or so.

Srelex wrote:If we take Chekov's statement at face value, then this places their speed at 1881161599999999 or 1.881162e+15 miles per hour...I think. Because I'm kinda sucky at calcs like this, I was wondering if you could point out any mistakes I've made and how it compares to previous ST Warp Drives. Thanks!

Well, let's start by NOT describing their speed in miles per hour. It makes much more sense to discuss warp speed as a multiple of light speed.

If we assume that the distance is 16 light years and the travel time is three minutes.

Speed = distance / time
Speed = 16 ly / (5.7E-6 years)
Speed = 2,800,000 c (approximately)

That's about a thousand times faster than typical TNG speeds.

Ted C wrote:

Srelex wrote:*According to Memory Alpha, Vulcan is 'a little over' 16 light years from Earth

Not that Memory Alpha is a bad source, but does it specify how they arrived at that figure? I can't remember a single instance in Star Trek of that distance ever being specified.

They give some sources next to the statement: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Vulcan_(planet)

I also think someone mentioned earlier that that figure came from Enterprise.

Let's see, it takes 43 seconds for the Enterprise to jump to warp after the last ship of the fleet jumps. Being generous and thus not counting the time the Enterprise spends dodging debris, the time between the Narada detecting them and the torpedo hitting is 27 seconds. So, if the Narada fired a massive volley, and the unshielded fleet was instantly anihilated by the ensuing warp drive explosions, it could be correct and need no further explanation.

Srelex wrote:btw, did you mean to say that it was 3 minutes for the universe, but a longer time for the crew? That would make slightly more sense, especially as I think their bridge conversation, added with Chekov's announcement and Kirk's running around, lasted a bit more than that.

No, I meant it the other way around. The crew of a ship moving at relativistic speeds would experience time at a slower rate than those at a stationary frame of reference (and yes, this is a bit more complicated). I'm suggesting that the Warp drive might not be able to completely nullify that effect. Although if they are moving faster than c, then they would actually move backwards in time, so.... let's not think too hard about it (told you it was complicated).

As for Chekov's stated ETA not matching the actual time it takes, it can simply be chalked at Chekov making an estimate himself, rather than relaying actual hard data, just as if talking casually you say "I think I'll be there in like five minutes".

Because the nuTrek galaxy seems rather different from the classic trek galaxy (Location of Delta Vega & possibly Vulcan, Rura Penthe not being an Ice Planet in the deleted scene. (though I know deleted scenes are of dubious canonicity))

I think it might be possible that nuWarp might have some Time Dilation effects in spite of it's classic trek function (which may not even apply to nuTrek) which would explain several things.

1. The seemingly brief travel time between Earth and Vulcan, at least to the crew.
2. The fleet debris in Enterprise's path even though they were only slightly delayed.
3. The long time it took for the Enterprise to get to the fleet rendezvous point, while Kirk had time to camp out with Spock Prime before visiting Scotty.

Granted all of this could be explained by other things, like the Narada going easy on the Kelvin, and the distance to the fleet rendezvous is as unknown as the distance from Earth to Vulcan and the speed of warp in nuTrek in general.

Also, wasn't the in universe explanation for the stardate system supposed to be time dilation due to relativistic speeds and "time zone" differences? while the out of universe explanation was supposed to have stardates just mean "future" ? like Gundam's Universal Century or After Colony?

I believe it may be a possible explanation though.

Apologies beforehand if my grammar and punctuation doesn't meet with standards, I've always had problems with it even in high school.

LordOskuro wrote:

Vympel wrote:That's significantly faster than both TOS (~200,000c) and TNG era (1,000 - 20,000c for max sustainable cruise to Warp 9.9) speeds.

Wait, TOS was faster than TNG? What happened?

TOS had galaxy-hopping plots; many plots revolved around the Enterprise getting propelled across very long distances at unreasonable speeds by the Sufficiently Advanced Alien/Space Warp/Whatever of the week. Warp drive numbers were based on... as I recall, a cubic scale (speed scales with the cube of the warp factor)

For the TNG series, they sat down and tried to rationalize the system (in the sense of "to make rational") and came up with an asymptotic scale for warp drive, with Warp 10 being infinite. This forced them to sacrifice the galaxy-hopping plot, but had the positive effect of letting them write in areas of the galaxy that were effectively out of range of Federation ships, and made it more clear that the Federation had a frontier, as opposed to being able to go anywhere and merely having regions they hadn't bothered to explore yet.

LordOskuro wrote:Let's see, it takes 43 seconds for the Enterprise to jump to warp after the last ship of the fleet jumps. Being generous and thus not counting the time the Enterprise spends dodging debris, the time between the Narada detecting them and the torpedo hitting is 27 seconds. So, if the Narada fired a massive volley, and the unshielded fleet was instantly anihilated by the ensuing warp drive explosions, it could be correct and need no further explanation.

Though the debris looks... older than that, somehow. To me it seems as if the wreckage must have had some time to cool and drift. Maybe I'm seeing things.

Simon_Jester wrote:Though the debris looks... older than that, somehow. To me it seems as if the wreckage must have had some time to cool and drift. Maybe I'm seeing things.

Yeah well, the real reason to all of this is pacing, not a well thought out logic, so we have to work with what we have. Although it could be a combination of the Narada wiping the fleet with a single barrage, and the Enterprise suffering from Time Dilation and thus taking more time to reach Vulcan than shown.

Simon_Jester wrote:For the TNG series, they sat down and tried to rationalize the system (in the sense of "to make rational") and came up with an asymptotic scale for warp drive, with Warp 10 being infinite.

It is just weird, seeing the effort they put to keep TOS in the continuity (As seen in Trials and Tribble-ations).

Vympel wrote:Well the immediate problem is the distance from Vulcan to Earth. Enterprise may say 16LY, but whether that's applicable to this AU is anyone's guess. Personally, I don't think nuST has anything to do with the original franchise. The Monsterprise is just too inconsistent.

I don't know that this is valid an argument, because nuST is in the original universe, just with a point of change occuring when Nero appears and blows up the Kelvin. The Enterprise herself may be a different ship (possibly BECAUSE of the loss of the Kelvin), but I don't see why Vulcan's location would magically change. I mean, why would it? The events and people have changed after Nero appeared, but the planets are still there.

LordOskuro wrote: No, I meant it the other way around. The crew of a ship moving at relativistic speeds would experience time at a slower rate than those at a stationary frame of reference (and yes, this is a bit more complicated). I'm suggesting that the Warp drive might not be able to completely nullify that effect. Although if they are moving faster than c, then they would actually move backwards in time, so.... let's not think too hard about it (told you it was complicated).

There is actually an episode of Voyager where they made a dramatically more efficient warp drive which results in the ship being sandblasted to dead by spacedust while atwarp due to the dramatically higher real-space velocities inside the warp bubble when the deflector disk fails by an Act of Plot.

Saddly it was a clone of Voyager, so the series didn't end there.

So even if they did manage somewhat 5.34ly per minute that would make a round trip from one end of the galaxy to another in just shy of two weeks. Not too shabby.