StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I've been re-watching all of DS9, and this second time around I've been struck by how much I'm growing to despise Major Kira. Her incessant pontificating about the occupation, and the way she holds it against every single cardassian she meets is greatly annoying me. Particularly the episode where the Cardassian servant kills members of her resistance cell, but carefully avoids killing anyone else. When his identity is revealed, she comments that his "innocence" is just an excuse for his guilt. This is right after she is told that she was responsible for the death and maiming of dozens of Cardassian civilians. She uses the "it was war" to justify herself, and that would be fine .What I was astonished that she didn't see anything wrong with doing that, and then saying a Cardassian deserved to die because he was on Bajor. Another thing is how she always says she did terrible things in the occupation, but never once admits to doing anything actually wrong.

The other thing that bothers me is that everything she and her friends did is completely justified and/or understandable. Whereas she damns every single Cardassian who did anything during the occupation. This is shown in her treatment of a particularly vicious member of her resistance cell (who did "terrible things). She thinks he's a good man now since he "found the prophets," even though he didn't do anything to make up for the things he did wrong. In contrast, she views Ghemor, who risked and lost everything fighting military control of Cardassia, and apologized for being a soldier during the occupation, as an unforgiven and horrible person. Even her treatment of Odo, who DID collaborate with the Cardassian security and executed Bajoran resistance, stands out compared to how she treats Quark, who was a bartender, and Ghemor, who fought the Bajoran resistance. The episode with Quark as weapons dealer is also stands out in its hypocrisy, how the hell did she think she got her weapons? Maybe someone should have intervened and prevented anyone from selling weapons to the resistance since its so unethical.

It annoys me that no one ever calls her out on it, no one ever brings up her blind racism, and no one ever questions that anything the resistance did could have been going too far. Honestly, the occupation isn't even that bad compared to what similar episodes in our world were like. 10 million Bajorans over fifty years? That's around 547 Bajorans dead per day of the occupation, on the ENTIRE planet (possibly including Bajoran colonies). That's an absurdly tiny number for a supposedly brutal occupation ruling over a civilization that possessed space travel and had a unified world government before the occupation. I'm having a hard time imagining how brutal the occupation could have possibly been when the population of Iraq suffered casualties at a comparable (though lower from what I understand) rate under US occupation. Especially when we see the "atrocities" the Cardassians commit. Only the Gallitep labor camp stands out to me as something we'd view today as horrible or out of line for an occupational authority.

Is this something everyone else noticed and I'm just catching up? Or I'm totally off base?

It's actually a fairly realistic portrayal. I've read autobiographies by Soviet soldiers in WWII. The authors all absolutely hated the Germans for what the Nazis did to Russian civilians during the war. But all of the atrocities (many of which were comparable to or worse than what the Nazis did) the Soviets committed against the Germans, Poles, Czechs, Finns, and even other Russians, nearly all of them civilians rather than soldiers, were perfectly justifiable.

You see the same thing in just about every war. Whatever the person speaking did during the war/insurgence is good and justified, even if it's utterly barbaric. But all of the people belonging to the nation/political group/ethnicity/whatever they were fighting are evil bastards who should just be lynched regardless of whether or not they actually did anything wrong.

Yeah, exactly. Atrocities that are committed against your side tend to blind you to the atrocities you commit against the 'bad guys' (who are always the other guys, not us).

It actually isn't surprising someone like Kira is full of hate against the Cardassians, although some of those examples does make me wonder why the writers didn't have someone (like Jadzia or Odo) call Kira out on her bullshit.

And I'm fine with that, I agree it's a realistic portrayal of what might happen. What bothers me is how all this is never called out by anyone on the station. No one ever brings it up, or suggests she's being hypocritical, even those who normally would. And it also bothers me that this is one of the dominant character features of a cast member who is usually supported by the show as being right/in the right. Would it have been so terrible for her to have to confront her own hypocrisy? Especially in a show that consistently dealt with those types of issues?

EDIT: Stofsk beat me to it.

Unfortunately sometimes the writers forget their own development. Season 1's gem of "Duet", for instance, had Kira forced to confront her hatreds and had her world view of "Cardassians = evil" shattered.

Steve wrote:Unfortunately sometimes the writers forget their own development. Season 1's gem of "Duet", for instance, had Kira forced to confront her hatreds and had her world view of "Cardassians = evil" shattered.

I think that Kira's self-discovery did continue somewhat later in her relationships with Ziyal, Legate Ghemor, and even Garak to an extent. But yeah, I wish it had been given more focus, too.

I have to say something though, and that is the idea that 10 million over 50 years is somehow not a brutal occupation seems spurious. It doesn't necessarily matter how many people die, although I think over 500 a day for 50 years isn't a tiny amount (especially not if you know someone or know someone who knew someone, it still hits hard). What matters though is the cardassians were the strong preying on the weak. There is also the fact that the cardassians were there to strip mine Bajor of any mineral resources to feed their own empire. Absolutely without justification either, Bajor and Cardassia were not antagonists at all, and it's not like space wouldn't be filled with plenty of uninhabited planets and asteroids with a veritable fortune of minerals. A number of asteroids could possible provide what Bajor had, unless Bajor had something like dilithium (was that ever mentioned? Because if so the occupation would make far more sense). In any case, see the war and occupation of Iraq as a modern day example of how well this kind of behaviour gets received by the oppressed native population.

And yet, when do we ever see any real evidence of this strip mining? Our only info on it comes from a biased source to say the least. Honestly, it almost seems to be a Bajoran exaggeration. We only see intact cities, beautiful provinces, and a seemingly intact industrial base. I don't recall seeing any of the disastrous side effects you would think fifty years of planet wide strip mining would cause. That's my issue with the occupation as such a supposedly horrible thing. The only real sources for any of the horrors of the occupation are the Bajoran resistance fighters (with the exception of the Galitep labor camp). We don't really see any real evidence for its nastiness, and we do see that there was a Bajoran government in place. One that lasted fifty years, and almost certainly had plenty of civil servants and supporters if it was anything like similarly long lasting puppet governments on earth.

Stofsk wrote:unless Bajor had something like dilithium (was that ever mentioned? Because if so the occupation would make far more sense).

As I recall, Terok Nor was originally an orbital Dilithium Refinery.

Paradox_Fanatic wrote:And yet, when do we ever see any real evidence of this strip mining? Our only info on it comes from a biased source to say the least. Honestly, it almost seems to be a Bajoran exaggeration. We only see intact cities, beautiful provinces, and a seemingly intact industrial base. I don't recall seeing any of the disastrous side effects you would think fifty years of planet wide strip mining would cause. That's my issue with the occupation as such a supposedly horrible thing. The only real sources for any of the horrors of the occupation are the Bajoran resistance fighters (with the exception of the Galitep labor camp). We don't really see any real evidence for its nastiness, and we do see that there was a Bajoran government in place. One that lasted fifty years, and almost certainly had plenty of civil servants and supporters if it was anything like similarly long lasting puppet governments on earth.

Well, we don't see that much of the planet, do we? (correct me if I'm wrong) After all, I doubt the characters would want to go anywhere near strip-mined wastelands or blasted ruins for visits--there is such a thing as painful memories.

Azron_Stoma wrote:

Stofsk wrote:unless Bajor had something like dilithium (was that ever mentioned? Because if so the occupation would make far more sense).

As I recall, Terok Nor was originally an orbital Dilithium Refinery.

It was uridium ore, not dilithium.

Paradox_Fanatic wrote:And yet, when do we ever see any real evidence of this strip mining? Our only info on it comes from a biased source to say the least.

Who are also in the best position to know than we are. And the Federation is at least supportive of that assessment as well.

Honestly, it almost seems to be a Bajoran exaggeration. We only see intact cities, beautiful provinces, and a seemingly intact industrial base.

When do we see any of these things? We may only ever see a capital city, at least that I recall - IIRC one of the few times we see action on the Bajoran homeworld was in the Circle trilogy at the beginning of season two. I do recall them saying something about how one of the moons of Bajor was the target of an energy project for the home planet? (which, without knowing the complete details, would at least point out how potentially depleted the home planet is of resources that they're going to a moon to secure some energy resources)

I don't recall seeing any of the disastrous side effects you would think fifty years of planet wide strip mining would cause. That's my issue with the occupation as such a supposedly horrible thing. The only real sources for any of the horrors of the occupation are the Bajoran resistance fighters (with the exception of the Galitep labor camp). We don't really see any real evidence for its nastiness, and we do see that there was a Bajoran government in place. One that lasted fifty years, and almost certainly had plenty of civil servants and supporters if it was anything like similarly long lasting puppet governments on earth.

You quoted the numbers before - 10 million over 50 years, equating to what, 500 a day? Even if this seems 'small', which I disputed above (how acceptable would this be by modern day standards? One only needs to look at Iraq and Afghanistan), it's not really the numbers that actually matter. It's the intent and the actions. The cardassians were there to take from the bajorans mineral wealth that was on the latter's home planet, that was the sole reason for building Terok Nor. Terok Nor was a mining platform, we see this in flashback episodes and even the mirror universe episodes.

Maybe from the cardassian perspective, the bajorans are a bunch of exaggerating crybabies. From the bajoran perspective, the cardassians are evil for having come to their home and strong armed them into taking what they wanted. And the possibility of civil servants and collaborators doesn't necessarily make the cardassians right and the bajoran resistance fighters wrong; at worst, it makes the whole thing a greyish blob. And please, the Vichy government collaborated with the fucking Nazis, the presence of collaborators doesn't make the aggressors morally or ethically in the clear.

JME2 wrote:

Azron_Stoma wrote:

Stofsk wrote:unless Bajor had something like dilithium (was that ever mentioned? Because if so the occupation would make far more sense).

As I recall, Terok Nor was originally an orbital Dilithium Refinery.

It was uridium ore, not dilithium.

And according to Memory-Alpha, uridium ore is supposedly valuable in cardassian ship building.

You quoted the numbers before - 10 million over 50 years, equating to what, 500 a day? Even if this seems 'small', which I disputed above (how acceptable would this be by modern day standards? One only needs to look at Iraq and Afghanistan),

That's the thing though, the numbers are similar to the casualties accrued by a single (Iraq) occupation on our world. Now if the Iraqi occupation was spread out over the entire world and casualties remained on a similer level as the early years of the American occupation, I don't think it would be regarded as oppressive. To maintain control over billions of people when there is an active and widespread resistance for fifty years, and only 10 million die? I'm having a lot of trouble seeing the population being more oppressed than the current Iraqi occupation, which isn't viewed as overly oppressive (unethical and illegal, but not particularly oppressive).
I can't find any population numbers for Bajor, so assuming that around 1 billion people lived on Bajor and its colonies over the entire time period of the occupation (which does not seem terrible unreasonable for a advanced planetwide humanoid civilization), than around 1% of the population died. If the resistance is as really wide spread as the Bajorans made it sound, that 1% might be mostly resistance and sympathizes. And the more Bajorans there are, the more likely this seems. If there were 2 billion, even 4 billion Bajorans who lived over those fifty years, than we're talking fractions of a percent. Even if there were 250 million Bajorans, its still only 4%. For an occupation that's a fairly low number especially compared to Earth's occupations (Soviet or American occupation in Afghanistan, the American occupation in Iraq, never mind the Nazis or ancient occupations).

it's not really the numbers that actually matter. It's the intent and the actions. The cardassians were there to take from the bajorans mineral wealth that was on the latter's home planet, that was the sole reason for building Terok Nor. Terok Nor was a mining platform, we see this in flashback episodes and even the mirror universe episodes.

I disagree with you, I think that the number of people who suffered under the occupation greatly change the morality of an occupation. The occupation could still be unethical or illegal, but if it was as vicious as say, the Nazis, it would be far more immoral than if it was similar to the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. I do there think there is plenty of wiggle room for the morality of the occupation (even if the motives were entirely unethical)
The fact that Terok Nor was a mining platform in no way proves or even supports that the Cardassians strip-mined the planet for fifty years. In just shows there was mining going on nearby. Mining can be done on nearby moons or asteroids, even in uninhabited areas of Bajor without being the "strip-mining" and "rape of the planet" that the Bajorans characterized it as. We see various towns and provinces throughout the show and we routinely here of Keiko O'Brian going to explore untouched areas, beautiful scenery, etc. Hardly the sort of thing that would seem to be common after a planet-wide strip mining for fifty years. More like the sort of thing that would be present after the Cardassians mined one or two specific resources somewhat extensively. The fact that Terok Nor was still in operation when they left means that there were still clearly at least one ore being mined.
This might still be unethical, but I do think that it makes the actions of the resistance (killing dozens of Cardassian civilians on a seemingly routine basis, assassinations conducted in crowds of Bajoran civilians, etc) much less justified if the occupation was actually fairly benign in what it was doing to Bajor. Consider that Bajor was building its own ships shortly after the occupation, only got two industrial replicators from the Federation to rebuild its entire industrial base, and the station's resident biologist didn't mention any disastrous ecological problems that she could help with, they don't seem to have suffered much damage from the occupation itself. Certainly nothing to justify the Major's accusation that all Cardassians on the Bajor were guilty of something (whereas a similar accusation to the Germans in Poland and the USSR would be justified) or the Bajoran claims of raping, strip mining and genocide.

And the possibility of civil servants and collaborators doesn't necessarily make the cardassians right and the bajoran resistance fighters wrong; at worst, it makes the whole thing a greyish blob

Exactly, it makes the whole thing a greyish blob. But when did the show ever question the Bajoran version of events? Cardassian protestations are always implied to be the result of guilty consciences, insanity, or simple denial. Never once does anyone treat the occupation from a rational, unbiased perspective (as Garak pointed out once), even by the characters who aren't Bajoran and whose only info on the occupation comes from the Bajorans (Sisko). Major Kira's statements are called out by the other characters, no one ever questions the hypocrisy of celebrating the Bajoran resistance and then condemning Quark for arms dealing, no Cardassian, no matter how innocent, is ever in the right or even not guilty.* The servant Cardassian is portrayed as being completely in the wrong and deserving what he got, whereas the resistance fighters deaths are something to mourn and something undeserved. That's my problem with the show that I was trying to bring out in the OP (I was clearly not successful). That this moral issue, so central to one of the characters, is never questioned, her bullshit never called out.

*the one exception is a Cardassian who wants to show his people how awful the occupation was, which is of course totally ok with the Bajoran perspective on things.

Okay, to take a step back here.

You are whining that Major Kira is annoying you because she is complaining about the occupation, and it really 'wasn't that bad' because 'only' fifty million people died, apparently. And all the Bajorans are untrustworthy and because we see and hear of a few 'nice' bits of the planet, it can't possibly be that the occupation did massive planet wide damage and inflicted enormous hardship on the population?

There is *overwhelming* evidence from a great many episodes when taken collectivly, that the Cardasians did enourmous mining, used extensive slave labour, openly performed medical experiments on captives, displaced huge numbers of people into the most primitive types of living conditions on Bajor AND on refugee camps throughout space, wrecked utterly enormous swaths of the planets ecosystem which were previously highly productive in terms of food, and they did it ALL for the benefit of Cardasia, without even the slightest pretext of a reason for invading and occupying the planet like, say, the US had when they invaded Iraq.

Fifty million does sound rather low, but it DOES NOT mean that the rest of the population who 'lived' were in the fucking land of milk and honey. The population of Zimbabwe stands at something like 12 million, only a fraction of that have been killed in the insanity of Mugabe, but it doesn't mean that huge chunks of the rest are having a nice time of it! Especially given Star Trek medical technology; the fact that so few died doesn't mean that their lives were anything but utter missery.

And yes, that Cardasian DID deserve to die BECAUSE HE WAS ON BAJOR. He and his people were NOT welecome there, it was preaty fucking clearly NOT their planet and the Cardasians were doing their best to simply extract whatever value they could for the place FOR THEIR OWN USE. He was a part of the occupation force, serving directly in a supporting role, thus making him a fucking legitimet target, no more or less then in any other total war the population of the other side is a legitiment target, or have you forgotten the carpet bombings in WW2 against population centers? Or the utter mess SAC made out of North Vietnams cities with B52 raids? And if you had watched the episode, you'd even know that the Resistance didn't TRY to target him, they were targeting a Cardasian Gul, a military officer and they just happened to kill some Cardasian civilians in the area at the same time.

Seriously, I've seen this crap sprouted before. War is neither clean nor happy, it is a fucking horrible, messy thing, but the truth is that the Cardasians had no bloody right to be there, they were clearly not WELCOME there. And if they hadn't been there, that civilian Cardasian who got all emo wouldn't have been injured. Bad luck to him, but thats war for you.

While I'm not going to go so far as justifying every action the Resistance committed, nor the killing of any Cardassian on Bajoran soil, ten million is not in any way insignificant, even on a planetary scale. World War One was about ten million, wasn't it?

Edit: Wikipedia puts it at "more than 15 million" for WW1, but the point still stands. 10 million is not a small number.

You are whining that Major Kira is annoying you because she is complaining about the occupation, and it really 'wasn't that bad' because 'only' fifty million people died, apparently. And all the Bajorans are untrustworthy and because we see and hear of a few 'nice' bits of the planet, it can't possibly be that the occupation did massive planet wide damage and inflicted enormous hardship on the population?

No, it's annoying me that no one calls her on her hypocritical bullshit regarding what she did in the occupation, and what everyone else is allowed to do anywhere else ever. Her blatant racism that no one ever questions, her ludicrous double standards regarding the Cardassians attacks on people working for the resistance (it was murder she says, a massacre) versus her standards regarding resistance attacks on civilians (it was war she says, terrible but necessary).

There is *overwhelming* evidence from a great many episodes when taken collectivly, that the Cardasians did enourmous mining, used extensive slave labour, openly performed medical experiments on captives, displaced huge numbers of people into the most primitive types of living conditions on Bajor AND on refugee camps throughout space, wrecked utterly enormous swaths of the planets ecosystem which were previously highly productive in terms of food, and they did it ALL for the benefit of Cardasia, without even the slightest pretext of a reason for invading and occupying the planet like, say, the US had when they invaded Iraq.

Actually, we don't know whether the Cardassians had any pretext or reason for occupying, as that wasn't given in the show, and I'm not sure that's relevant. As for the rest, where is this evidence? Some of it, maybe even most of it, comes from the Bajoran resistance (not exactly a reliable source for commentary Cardassian actions), we see evidence of ONE nasty labor camp and ONE doctor performing medical experiments (and that's truly horrendous and inexusable, yes), but even then, the evidence comes from the Major's testimony on how awful it was and the Cardassian file clerk (who was outright lying for the majority of his testimony in order to make the Gul he was impersonating look worse). Do we know who went to Galitep? Was it mostly resistance members? Was it something close to Guantanamo, or was it more like a concentration camp? We don't know. But what we do know, is that for Major Kira and the DS9 staff (people willing to forgive Odo for executing innocents and who didn't see the attempted genocide of the Cardassians as something the Founders deserved to die for), every single Cardassian is damned by even tangential relation to anything on Bajor. If they were there they deserved to die (at least according to the Federation and Bajorans). This stands in such stark contrast to the tolerance and second chances they show towards every body else, that it staggers me that no one mentioned it or called out Major Kira on it.

Fifty million does sound rather low, but it DOES NOT mean that the rest of the population who 'lived' were in the fucking land of milk and honey. The population of Zimbabwe stands at something like 12 million, only a fraction of that have been killed in the insanity of Mugabe, but it doesn't mean that huge chunks of the rest are having a nice time of it! Especially given Star Trek medical technology; the fact that so few died doesn't mean that their lives were anything but utter missery

Really? I think you overstated the casualties by a factor of five AND would need to show evidence that less than a percentage of the population died unnaturally despite living in supposedly awful conditions. Why would they have access to premium medical tech if they were living in such horrible conditions? How come none of the Bajorans we see have any malnutrition, even immediately after the occupation? We hear about the utter collapse of the Cardassian medical system after their war with the Klingons and how they are having massive outbreaks of disease, you would think Major Kira or someone else would have mentioned it if that was happening on Bajor. And if there weren't any major outbreaks of disease, if they were getting access to excellent medical care, it casts doubt on the idea that their situation was all that bad.

As for your Zimbabwean comparison, if the fraction is significantly higher than 1%, than it is significantly worse than the occupation. And as mentioned above, we don't see any evidence of the massive outbreaks of disease you would think would be occurring in such a situation (as we do in Zimababwe), nor does the resident biologist mention these supposed ecological catastrophes. I can only think of two instances, the first the Northwest Peninsula, however it was uninhabited ) and it wasn't that badly damaged (since the Bajorans viewed the Skrreans as having a chance of making it productive again within a year). The second example was the Rakantha province, however the Bajorans were going to be able to fix that with a few soil reclamators and it was producing a sizable crop again by the time of the Reckoning (so it clearly wasn't that badly damaged).

And yes, that Cardasian DID deserve to die BECAUSE HE WAS ON BAJOR. He and his people were NOT welecome there, it was preaty fucking clearly NOT their planet and the Cardasians were doing their best to simply extract whatever value they could for the place FOR THEIR OWN USE. He was a part of the occupation force, serving directly in a supporting role, thus making him a fucking legitimet target, no more or less then in any other total war the population of the other side is a legitiment target, or have you forgotten the carpet bombings in WW2 against population centers? Or the utter mess SAC made out of North Vietnams cities with B52 raids? And if you had watched the episode, you'd even know that the Resistance didn't TRY to target him, they were targeting a Cardasian Gul, a military officer and they just happened to kill some Cardasian civilians in the area at the same time.

Seriously, I've seen this crap sprouted before. War is neither clean nor happy, it is a fucking horrible, messy thing, but the truth is that the Cardasians had no bloody right to be there, they were clearly not WELCOME there. And if they hadn't been there, that civilian Cardasian who got all emo wouldn't have been injured. Bad luck to him, but thats war for you.

You're right. That's how war works, but I don't see how that means that Cardassian DESERVED to die. Because he was on Bajor? He was a servant. He might not have had a choice. The fact that he wasn't a target is irrelevant, the fact that Major Kira felt that he deserved to die, viewed him as guilty of "crimes" of some sort, is. The hit shows the kind of tactics the resistance used during their operations. And if Major Kira did those sorts of things all the time, its damning of her character that she views everyone she killed as deserving to die. Do you think the bomber pilots in WWII and Vietnam would tell you that every person they killed DESERVED to die? I don't. Or would they say it was neccessary to win the war? That's what I've heard, and its a very different sentiment. Not regretting a decision is different from not feeling guilty about killing innocents, never mind sayin those innocents deserve to die.

Did every German who so much as walked into France during the occupation deserve to die? If your answer is yes, simply because they were in France (regardless of what they were doing there), then we are going to have to disagree about what makes a person deserves to die.

EDIT :

The Romulan Republic wrote:While I'm not going to go so far as justifying every action the Resistance committed, nor the killing of any Cardassian on Bajoran soil, ten million is not in any way insignificant, even on a planetary scale. World War One was about ten million, wasn't it?

Edit: Wikipedia puts it at "more than 15 million" for WW1, but the point still stands. 10 million is not a small number.

If WWI was over the course of fifty years and was actually world wide, the comparison might stand. But it was over the course of four years and primarily involved only a portion of the Earth's population. 10 million really is an insignificant number of that long a time period and that large a population. Especially considering there was supposed to have been nearly constant warfare for that time period.

Paradox_Fanatic wrote:That's the thing though, the numbers are similar to the casualties accrued by a single (Iraq) occupation on our world. Now if the Iraqi occupation was spread out over the entire world and casualties remained on a similer level as the early years of the American occupation, I don't think it would be regarded as oppressive. To maintain control over billions of people when there is an active and widespread resistance for fifty years, and only 10 million die? I'm having a lot of trouble seeing the population being more oppressed than the current Iraqi occupation, which isn't viewed as overly oppressive (unethical and illegal, but not particularly oppressive).

But you're not the one being oppressed. With all due respect, it's easy for someone detached from the situation to look at it and declare it to be non-oppressive. Sure, if a 100 million died that's an order of magnitude increase from the 10 million that died; you could argue that the higher order of magnitude means a higher order of oppression. But that doesn't diminish the lower order of magnitude as being oppressive as well. It's just not-as-oppressive.

I disagree with you, I think that the number of people who suffered under the occupation greatly change the morality of an occupation. The occupation could still be unethical or illegal, but if it was as vicious as say, the Nazis, it would be far more immoral than if it was similar to the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. I do there think there is plenty of wiggle room for the morality of the occupation (even if the motives were entirely unethical)

But you're looking at it as number of people that died. In reality, there are other elements to an oppressive occupation: restrictions of liberties, restriction of movement, public assembly, draconian laws and harsh punishments - not even necessarily death penalties, but absurd sentences for relatively minor infractions. People getting 'disappeared' in the middle of the night, secret prisons and tribunals, interrogations and torture, and of course forced labour. A lot of the above apply to the occupation. It wasn't just the fact that 10 million were killed in 50 years, but a lot of other things as well.

The fact that Terok Nor was a mining platform in no way proves or even supports that the Cardassians strip-mined the planet for fifty years. In just shows there was mining going on nearby. Mining can be done on nearby moons or asteroids, even in uninhabited areas of Bajor without being the "strip-mining" and "rape of the planet" that the Bajorans characterized it as.

Except we hear that strip mining happened. You're not going to see an event after it already happened. The bajorans are in a position to know, and we don't need to have seen it to accept it. As a principle of fiction, a character is assumed to be telling the truth unless there is an established reason for them to be either wrong or lying; we are never given any reason to doubt that bajor suffered under the occupation, because there is testimony from characters who lived through it.

We see various towns and provinces throughout the show and we routinely here of Keiko O'Brian going to explore untouched areas, beautiful scenery, etc. Hardly the sort of thing that would seem to be common after a planet-wide strip mining for fifty years. More like the sort of thing that would be present after the Cardassians mined one or two specific resources somewhat extensively. The fact that Terok Nor was still in operation when they left means that there were still clearly at least one ore being mined.

We rarely see that many towns and provinces, but even so, not every square inch of the planetary surface need be despoiled for there to be strip mining taking place. Today, parts of the world have been mined and strip mined, while other parts of the world are still relatively untouched or unspoiled.

This might still be unethical, but I do think that it makes the actions of the resistance (killing dozens of Cardassian civilians on a seemingly routine basis, assassinations conducted in crowds of Bajoran civilians, etc) much less justified if the occupation was actually fairly benign in what it was doing to Bajor.

So it's less black and white than it could have been; this isn't necessarily a flaw. Kira's hypocrisy may well be a character flaw. Everyone turning a blind eye to it may well be another character flaw on their parts. Or the writers dropped the ball. How do you tell your friend the former freedom fighter/terrorist that she's not being entirely objective when it comes to hating the cardassians? Sisko wants to get on her good side for pragmatism's sake, but he has no love for the cardassians either; O'Brien hates them just as much as Kira does (well, perhaps less) because he fought them in the war; Dax has been around long enough to know some people hold intractable beliefs; Bashir would frown and mumble something idealistic, which is fine for him given he grew up in privileged circumstances; as for Odo, as I recall he frequently does argue with Kira about some of these matters.

Consider that Bajor was building its own ships shortly after the occupation, only got two industrial replicators from the Federation to rebuild its entire industrial base, and the station's resident biologist didn't mention any disastrous ecological problems that she could help with, they don't seem to have suffered much damage from the occupation itself. Certainly nothing to justify the Major's accusation that all Cardassians on the Bajor were guilty of something (whereas a similar accusation to the Germans in Poland and the USSR would be justified) or the Bajoran claims of raping, strip mining and genocide.

The problem is, you're expecting people to be rational under certain unique circumstances. It's easy for you to say an occupation doesn't sound so bad when you don't have to live under it. I got from the show that the bajorans hate the cardassians, because the latter enslaved them for 50 years, strip mined substantial mineral wealth from the planet, and left 10 million corpses behind (to say nothing of the probably countless more who weren't killed, but otherwise 'affected').

If Kira comes across as a zealot who is inconsistent, I don't necessarily have a problem with that - she's too attached to the situation, she's too embedded. It would be next to impossible for her to be rational and objective. Sisko, Dax et al are likely on Kira's side because, other than being a comrade and their purpose for being there to usher the bajorans into the Federation, but why the fuck should they care about cardassian protestations of innocence? They're old enemies. They've fought a war with them. Even if the cardassian occupation was relatively tame (relative to what?), that doesn't give the cardassians the all-clear for being in there. No matter how benevolent a military occupation would be, there was no moral or ethical justification for the cardassians to be there, or to do what they did.

Exactly, it makes the whole thing a greyish blob. But when did the show ever question the Bajoran version of events?

It doesn't. I won't defend the writing to that extent. But I don't think it necessarily needs to. For one thing, just from a simple writing standpoint, we as the audience are given enough exposition to understand the premise of the setting. Did the writers drop the ball by making the death toll too low? It's higher than the holocaust. How high does a toll have to be for us to get the picture? For the most part, we as the audience have to assume the characters are being straight with us for us to accept the premise of the story.

Re: Quark and his arms dealing. Well, bear in mind Kira detests Quark. I don't remember if Kira took umbrage at Quark selling weapons or whether she just savoured the possibility he might finally have undone himself. From memory Sisko said something to Quark about in the past letting things slide, but after Quark's latest business venture that changed, and Kira says something naughty like she can't wait for him to slip up. Now you make a point that without 3rd party arms dealers, the resistance wouldn't have a chance in hell opposing the cardassians. But even if so, Kira was never fond of Quark - that was clear from the very beginning of the series.

In any case, see the war and occupation of Iraq as a modern day example of how well this kind of behaviour gets received by the oppressed native population.

I wasn't aware that the Cardassians launching an unprovoked invasion and 50 year occupation of Bajor, complete with genocide and strip-mining the planet of its resources, was directly comparable to the US (and other nations) launching an invasion of a country that claimed to have weapons of mass destruction (which it had used against civilians repeatedly in the past). Especially since, y'know, we actually plan to leave, we haven't been stealing oil or other resources from Iraq, and have spent billions on improving the Iraqi infrastructure so they have electricity, internal plumbing, hospitals, and schools.

I've also spoken to actual Iraqis (something I'm sure you've never done) and they're quite fond of the US. Very grateful to us for deposing Saddam, replacing the corrupt and brutal police and military with more trustworthy Iraqis, and massively improving the quality of life for the average Iraqi. And while they'd be happy for us to leave, they're also glad we're not leaving until they're politically and militarily stable so they don't collapse into chaos the minute we leave.

And according to both them and the US troops I interact with, the majority of terrorists operating in Iraq for the last several years haven't been Iraqis; most are Iranian, Syrian, or Chechen and are sent in by Al Qaida to continue the war. The majority of Iraqis side with the Americans against the terrorists because the terrorists actively attack and kill Iraqi civilians, whereas US troops kinda try to avoid that whenever possible.

But let's not let your biased, woefully uninformed opinion derail the thread. I think a more valid comparison would be the Japanese invasion of China. The Japanese invaded without provocation, stripped the Chinese of their wealth and resources, exterminated a shitload of Chinese civilians (including the use of biological and chemical weapons), engaged in unethical medical experiments and torture, and are still hated by a large number of Chinese over sixty years later.

That sounds like a much more valid comparison to what happened between Cardassia and Bajor.

Paradox_Fanatic wrote: If WWI was over the course of fifty years and was actually world wide, the comparison might stand. But it was over the course of four years and primarily involved only a portion of the Earth's population. 10 million really is an insignificant number of that long a time period and that large a population. Especially considering there was supposed to have been nearly constant warfare for that time period.

I'll concede World War I isn't a perfect analogy.

Ok, so 500,000 a year. The point is, its a big number. No matter how small a percent of the total population, to look at 500,000 (probably largely civilians) killed a year by an occupying power and dismiss that as insignificant is just wrong.

To Stofsk: I'll concede that it is easier to say that from where I am, and as I have no real knowledge of the general situation on Bajor I'd have to go with there being a general level of oppression. I see your point about why the staff wouldn't want to confront her, but at the same time, it goes completely against their track record of dealing with emotional issues and prizing values OVER the pragmatic issues at hand. This is especially true in the later years of the show (when there is little or no possibility of Major Kira suddenly turning on them, and they have her trust and friendship). I'm just frustrated her hypocrisy is tolerated for the other characters, but maybe that's just because it's two weeks of endless Kira bullshit rather than it being spread out over seven years.

As for the characters, I see being a member of an admitted terrorist group and/or being openly racist (as well as having family members killed by the Cardassians) as sufficient reason to distrust the Bajoran resistance members objectivity on what happened to their world. Starfleet would be a different matter, but they really don't comment on it, or only repeat that they weren't there and can't judge (Sisko talking to Dukat and other Cardassians).

Kira's distaste for Quark due to him "collaborating" with the Cardassians just came off as ridiculous considering her forgiving Odo for executing innocent Bajorans. The arms dealer thing was just icing on the cake.

As for the occupation having a higher casualty figure than the Holocaust, the Holocaust didn't have a 1% mortality rate in the population in question and didn't occur over fifty years. The time period and size of the population in question make the comparison suspect.

Ok, so 500,000 a year. The point is, its a big number. No matter how small a percent of the total population, to look at 500,000 (probably largely civilians) killed a year by an occupying power and dismiss that as insignificant is just wrong.

Less than half that actually, and considering that there is supposed to be constant guerrilla warfare on a planet wide scale, I don't think its fair to assume its largely civilians. Furthermore, that total might well include civilians killed in terrorist attacks and collaborators. When we are talking about an entire planet, I do regard that as a fairly insignificant number for an occupation. It sounds big, but compared to actual occupations on earth, that is an insignificant percentage of dead. If it sounds callous, I'm sorry, but I that's what I think.

Why is apologism for the conqueror so much in vogue lately? This is the same bullshit that was in the Avatar thread.

Why do you think that the invaded should forgive the invader for not executing too many of them?

The incalculable harm and indirect deaths that result when one starfaring civilization brutally subjugates another into technological backwardity and poverty must also factor into the moral calculus. That and the phrase "unprovoked attack" should matter to you.

Not a single one of you fucksticks would shed a tear for oppressing aliens that landed here and got blown up by car bombs. Hell, you'd set off the bomb and sleep like a baby.

As for Major Kira's characterization, I can't comment since it's been too long since I've seen the series. It wouldn't surprise me if Star Trek handled the shades of gray clumsily...that's practically it's trademark during the Berman years. However, DS9 showed us no shortage of subversive and all-around-nice Cardassians. There are probably those who would argue that the three best characters on the show were all Cardassian.

Swindle1984 wrote:

In any case, see the war and occupation of Iraq as a modern day example of how well this kind of behaviour gets received by the oppressed native population.

I wasn't aware that the Cardassians launching an unprovoked invasion and 50 year occupation of Bajor, complete with genocide and strip-mining the planet of its resources, was directly comparable to the US (and other nations) launching an invasion of a country that claimed to have weapons of mass destruction (which it had used against civilians repeatedly in the past). Especially since, y'know, we actually plan to leave, we haven't been stealing oil or other resources from Iraq, and have spent billions on improving the Iraqi infrastructure so they have electricity, internal plumbing, hospitals, and schools.

It's not directly comparable. It's not even vaguely equivalent. It's only analogous to how the cardassians let themselves in through the door uninvited and occupied the place, and that people in the country and in the region had a thing or two to say about that (as did the world). America sold the idea on the most trumped up bullshit excuse possible. Iraq didn't claim to have WMDs, it claimed the opposite, and America never found any even after claiming to the international community it had accurate intel that confirmed it (said accurate intel never materialised anything of the sort).

And are you seriously telling me that everything that's happened in Iraq has been above-board and squeaky clean? Even here in Australia, there was a huge political scandal over food for oil. There have been plenty of dodgy things going on in Iraq ever since the war and occupation started.

I've also spoken to actual Iraqis (something I'm sure you've never done)

Ohh snap! You got me.

and they're quite fond of the US. Very grateful to us for deposing Saddam, replacing the corrupt and brutal police and military with more trustworthy Iraqis, and massively improving the quality of life for the average Iraqi. And while they'd be happy for us to leave, they're also glad we're not leaving until they're politically and militarily stable so they don't collapse into chaos the minute we leave.

That's great. I'm being serious.

And according to both them and the US troops I interact with, the majority of terrorists operating in Iraq for the last several years haven't been Iraqis; most are Iranian, Syrian, or Chechen and are sent in by Al Qaida to continue the war. The majority of Iraqis side with the Americans against the terrorists because the terrorists actively attack and kill Iraqi civilians, whereas US troops kinda try to avoid that whenever possible.

The problem here is you qualified by saying 'for the last several years'. I don't know how accurate that is. I do recall for the longest time that a lot of the fighting in Iraq was actually Iraqis opposing American forces, in addition to outsiders. As it turns out, resistance to occupations can be fractured and factionalised, with competing organisations that may not share love for the Americans, British and Australians but neither do they love each other either.

But let's not let your biased, woefully uninformed opinion derail the thread. I think a more valid comparison would be the Japanese invasion of China. The Japanese invaded without provocation, stripped the Chinese of their wealth and resources, exterminated a shitload of Chinese civilians (including the use of biological and chemical weapons), engaged in unethical medical experiments and torture, and are still hated by a large number of Chinese over sixty years later.

That sounds like a much more valid comparison to what happened between Cardassia and Bajor.

No offence or anything, but it seems that my 'biased, uninformed opinion' didn't derail the thread, but yours did. Nevertheless, if it makes you happy to say that the Japanese occupation of China is a more valid comparison, fine. Conceded.

Paradox_Fanatic wrote:To Stofsk: I'll concede that it is easier to say that from where I am, and as I have no real knowledge of the general situation on Bajor I'd have to go with there being a general level of oppression. I see your point about why the staff wouldn't want to confront her, but at the same time, it goes completely against their track record of dealing with emotional issues and prizing values OVER the pragmatic issues at hand. This is especially true in the later years of the show (when there is little or no possibility of Major Kira suddenly turning on them, and they have her trust and friendship). I'm just frustrated her hypocrisy is tolerated for the other characters, but maybe that's just because it's two weeks of endless Kira bullshit rather than it being spread out over seven years.

The writers dropped the ball, it's true. I don't disagree.

As for the characters, I see being a member of an admitted terrorist group and/or being openly racist (as well as having family members killed by the Cardassians) as sufficient reason to distrust the Bajoran resistance members objectivity on what happened to their world. Starfleet would be a different matter, but they really don't comment on it, or only repeat that they weren't there and can't judge (Sisko talking to Dukat and other Cardassians).

It's possible they did their own intel, and quietly might not think that the occupation was as big a thing as the bajorans claimed - consider that they only gave them two industrial replicators, and the mission for Sisko was to shepherd and build relations with the bajorans to be eventually admitted into the Federation. But given how Starfleet and the Federation are like, even a relatively mild occupation would be looked on as an outrage. To people like Sisko, the cardassians are interstellar bullies picking on the weak.

Kira's distaste for Quark due to him "collaborating" with the Cardassians just came off as ridiculous considering her forgiving Odo for executing innocent Bajorans. The arms dealer thing was just icing on the cake.

Sort of. I mean, Odo and her were friends, but it did strike me as strange she'd just forgive him. That's Trek writing for you, everything has to be neatly wrapped up by episode's end, few things are carried forward in terms of character arcs (meta plots like the war with the Dominion are a different story, but I'd argue the writers dropped the ball on that one too). On the other hand, Quark is different to Odo. Quark is an amoral opportunist who'd sell anyone out for a quick buck. Odo is a principled law man who hates injustice and chaos (he claims he hates injustice but the other Founders say it's really that he hates chaos and wants to impose order on his surroundings). He did the wrong thing but the episode showed he was contrite. It was implied that their friendship was strained by the revelations, but not over. Meanwhile, Kira never had a friendship with Quark.

As for the occupation having a higher casualty figure than the Holocaust, the Holocaust didn't have a 1% mortality rate in the population in question and didn't occur over fifty years. The time period and size of the population in question make the comparison suspect.

In terms of numbers alone the comparison is valid. An analogy doesn't have to be perfect for it to make its point. How about Vietnam as another example? From the '50s when it struggled against the French to the '60s and mid-'70s when it fought the Americans. That's a quarter of a century more or less. IIRC, some 3 million Vietnamese died, that's the estimate I've heard at least. I don't know if that figure takes into account the entire 25 year period or just the period where the Americans were involved.

No analogy is going to be a perfect fit - the holocaust was a different beast and took place in a few years yet had more systematic planning by the Nazis, while Vietnam is a small country in SE Asia - but there's no way a modern day or recent history example can be a perfect comparison. The point is, you could argue how the bajoran-cardassian conflict and the occupation is an allegory, or accept it on its own terms. It doesn't really matter, at least I don't think it does.

sort of. I mean, Odo and her were friends, but it did strike me as strange she'd just forgive him. That's Trek writing for you, everything has to be neatly wrapped up by episode's end, few things are carried forward in terms of character arcs (meta plots like the war with the Dominion are a different story, but I'd argue the writers dropped the ball on that one too). On the other hand, Quark is different to Odo. Quark is an amoral opportunist who'd sell anyone out for a quick buck. Odo is a principled law man who hates injustice and chaos (he claims he hates injustice but the other Founders say it's really that he hates chaos and wants to impose order on his surroundings). He did the wrong thing but the episode showed he was contrite. It was implied that their friendship was strained by the revelations, but not over. Meanwhile, Kira never had a friendship with Quark.

I don't think you give Quark enough credit. If he was as opportunistic as you claim he wouldn't have sold the Bajorans food and medical supplies at a rate that was (for him) blasphemously low. He also wouldn't have covered for his brother Rom during the Dominion occupation of DS9 and help the resistance. Or give up numerous opportunities for wealth because he wasn't ruthless enough (see his loss of the potential Gamma Quadrant profits). And the strange thing was that Odo was contrite, but that never mattered for anyone else but Odo. And Kira had shown a willingness to damn any Cardassian, no matter how contrite or redeemed, for past wrongs they may or may not have committed (exception, the episode Duet). I think we're both in agreement here though that the writer's dropped the ball.

In terms of numbers alone the comparison is valid. An analogy doesn't have to be perfect for it to make its point. How about Vietnam as another example? From the '50s when it struggled against the French to the '60s and mid-'70s when it fought the Americans. That's a quarter of a century more or less. IIRC, some 3 million Vietnamese died, that's the estimate I've heard at least. I don't know if that figure takes into account the entire 25 year period or just the period where the Americans were involved.

No analogy is going to be a perfect fit - the holocaust was a different beast and took place in a few years yet had more systematic planning by the Nazis, while Vietnam is a small country in SE Asia - but there's no way a modern day or recent history example can be a perfect comparison. The point is, you could argue how the bajoran-cardassian conflict and the occupation is an allegory, or accept it on its own terms. It doesn't really matter, at least I don't think it does.

I'm not trying to be picky or force an analogy to fit, but the difference in scale and purpose is what bugs me about these analogies. None of these comparisons have a target population of anywhere near 1 billion, or a time span of fifty years, and yet the casualties are comparable. That seems to me to argue against the severity of the occupation in even a relative sense (compare it to the hundreds of millions of dead Cardassians at the end of DS9 in a matter of hours). The Vietnam conflicts are closer, but even then, 3 million is a catastrophically high total for Vietnam compared to the totals for occupation of Bajor. I don't think there's a comparable situation because I don't think any real occupations have mortality rates that low or last that long.

Still, it only matters insofar as it made Major Kira's claims of the horror of the occupation ring rather hollow Especially if you consider that Quark's brief stint as an arms dealer almost saw a transaction that would have resulted in the death of 28 million people. It's not as if casualty totals significantly higher and quicker are unheard of.