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Have we seen another such creature in any of the books or television shows? I can only remember it from the "Datalore" episode from TNG. The other question I wanted to ask is if you think a couple torpedo bursts from the Enterprise would have made short work of the entity?

Next of Kin wrote:Have we seen another such creature in any of the books or television shows? I can only remember it from the "Datalore" episode from TNG. The other question I wanted to ask is if you think a couple torpedo bursts from the Enterprise would have made short work of the entity?

We saw the same creature in "Silicon Avatar," and in that case it was shaken to pieces by a transmission that matched its resonant frequency. Captain Picard was suitably morally outraged, as usual, that someone would choose to destroy a dangerous, confirmed killer of thousands, possibly millions, instead of attempting to open lines of communication and intercultural exchange with something that did not exhibit any clear signs of having more intelligence than a clever animal.

Patrick Ogaard wrote:
We saw the same creature in "Silicon Avatar," and in that case it was shaken to pieces by a transmission that matched its resonant frequency. Captain Picard was suitably morally outraged, as usual, that someone would choose to destroy a dangerous, confirmed killer of thousands, possibly millions, instead of attempting to open lines of communication and intercultural exchange with something that did not exhibit any clear signs of having more intelligence than a clever animal.

I take it that no other specimens of this type of creature have been found. What sort of intelligence did the entity demonstrate??

Next of Kin wrote:

Patrick Ogaard wrote:
We saw the same creature in "Silicon Avatar," and in that case it was shaken to pieces by a transmission that matched its resonant frequency. Captain Picard was suitably morally outraged, as usual, that someone would choose to destroy a dangerous, confirmed killer of thousands, possibly millions, instead of attempting to open lines of communication and intercultural exchange with something that did not exhibit any clear signs of having more intelligence than a clever animal.

I take it that no other specimens of this type of creature have been found. What sort of intelligence did the entity demonstrate??

In declining to attack the Enterprise-D once it was protected by shields and ready to attack the entity in turn, the entity displayed the intelligence of a moderately intelligent predatory animal.

Its having apparently arranged a deal with Lore to not attack Lore in return for Lore giving it more victims, the entity displayed the intelligence of an intelligent predatory animal. The concept is one that a wolf or great cat could likely wrap its brain around, so that it does not require actual sapience.

In tentatively responding to the communications attempts coming from Data and a scientist who had lost her son to the entity at the colony of Data and Lore's birth, the entity did not necessarily display any greater intelligence than in its arrangement with Lore. The entity obviously had to have senses to perceive its surroundings, including threats and potential prey. Since the entity was capable of travel at warp as well as at sublight speeds, that would mean a combination of electromagnetic senses and subspace senses. Those senses and movement abilities would also require navigational ability, which can easily be accommodated by some dedicated intelligence that does the critter no good in terms of sapience. Pigeons are excellent aerial navigators after all, but sapience is not ordinarily attributed to them. Thus, the entity could have been responding to the transmission the way a communicative animal will respond to something that mimics its own mode of communication. Duck and deer calls are typical examples, as is the howling of dogs in response to really bad human singing.

There is no conclusive evidence of the entity's sapience, and sapience is not a precondition of its effective functioning.

I also recall two other incidents in which spacegoing organic (as opposed to crystalline) entities made an appearance, though I do not have the episode titles handy. I'm sure another poster will have the necessary titles handy.

One is a TNG episode in which the Enterprise gets too close to what looks like an Intrepid-sized tadpole. The creature, which is pregnant, takes offense and attacks the Enterprise. The Enterprise retaliates, easily and unintentionally killing the creature. The infant is cut out by phaser in a quick C-section, latches onto the Enterprise and begins draining power. Treknobabble ensues and eventually the animal is dropped off at a nearby asteroid field, where the animal (Junior) apparently joins a herd of its kin. I do not recall any warp capability being displayed by the beasts, which apparently grazed on asteroids and ambient radiation (which was somehow concentrated in the asteroid belt).

The other is a Voyager episode in which the Voyager stomps into the midst a herd of giant spacegoing beasts. The smaller beasts that formed the majority of the herd did not exceed the size of the Voyager's warp nacelles (and began snuggling up to its nacelles). The larger beasts were nearly the size of the Voyager. The small ones, playing the female role of conventional herd animals, were sexually attracted to Voyager's plasma exhausts and such. The big ones, one in particular, felt their harems threatened. Voyager suffered several slaps to its hull, until the rather slow crew finally figured out that doing a corkscrew roll and venting blue plasma, the way the herd beasts were obviously showing submission in dominance fights, would solve their problem. Big, bad, sexy Voyager suddenly looked like a submissive hyperthyroid wimp to the various beasts, the big beasts were satisfied they would not have competition, and Voyager toddled on. Physically, these beasts were rather like the microorganism Euglena, with a roughly cylindrical body, a slightly pointed anterior, and a single flagellum at the posterior. These creatures, encountered in deep space and possessing an active physiology that included high energy plasmas, must have had a natural warp drive equivalent.

Neither of the above types displayed more intelligence than common herd animals like cattle or gnus.

No, the entity was sentient. It displayed its intelligence to be more than "an animal" many times. Lore even spoke to it! Clearly it understands language.

Superman wrote:No, the entity was sentient. It displayed its intelligence to be more than "an animal" many times. Lore even spoke to it! Clearly it understands language.

Understanding language, especially language that was processed through universal translator systems (as should be standard for any transmissions coming from the Enterprise), does not necessarily indicate actual sapience. It does indicate a good bit of intelligence. At its most basic, Lore's words to the entity could be condensed down to: You no attack me, me give you yummy food. In "Silicon Avatar," all the critter managed to do was to respond in kind to graviton pulses, transmitting a pattern of graviton pulses. If one were to use dolphins as an analogy, an orca responding to modulated sonar pulses by emitting its own sonar pulses would not necessarily be an indication of sapience, though they would likely indicate intelligence.

Essentially, the crystalline entity displayed intelligence on a par with an orca that's had a warp drive strapped to it, though I would credit an orca with greater wisdom in choosing its targets.

Didn't Kirk and co run into a gigantic space organism? I forget the title of the ep, but I think it had absorbed a Vulcan science ship and Spock took a shuttle into it and nearly died.

I remember two eps with the Crystalline Entity. I forget, was it explained why they couldn't simply torpedo the thing to death?

HemlockGrey wrote:Didn't Kirk and co run into a gigantic space organism? I forget the title of the ep, but I think it had absorbed a Vulcan science ship and Spock took a shuttle into it and nearly died.

I remember two eps with the Crystalline Entity. I forget, was it explained why they couldn't simply torpedo the thing to death?

True, in TOS they did run into a giant unicellular organism that was enveloped in a huge negative energy field. The thing was about to reproduce by fission around the time that Kirk and co. placed an antimatter charge near its nucleus. I don't remember the exact dimensions, but the critter was utterly huge, and an unhindered infection of the galaxy would have likely produced a galaxy-scale case of amebic dysentery.

HemlockGrey wrote:Didn't Kirk and co run into a gigantic space organism? I forget the title of the ep, but I think it had absorbed a Vulcan science ship and Spock took a shuttle into it and nearly died.

The space Amoeba (18,000 KM by 3,000KM), theres also Gomtuu the living ship, the creature Vash brought back from the GQ andd probably a few more such creatures.

Technically, the Founders of the Dominion might also count. It is canon that they can adopt a spacegoing form capable of catching up with a Starfleet runabout at sublight speeds. They may also be able to travel at warp (as otherwise the abandoned changeling in question would not likely have been able to get anywhere worthwhile without having centuries or millenia pass).

As I recall, the crystalline entity displayed a bit more intellegence then an orca. Lore was able to work out a specific plan that it wait and attack the second that a tree was being beamed out into space. That it understood to wait until then, and then attack, shows a bit more understanding then the majority of animals as it was demonstrating problem solving skills in addition to the intellegence needed to correctly interperate Lore's meansing. I'd say the thing was as smart as a chimp at least.

HemlockGrey wrote:Didn't Kirk and co run into a gigantic space organism? I forget the title of the ep, but I think it had absorbed a Vulcan science ship and Spock took a shuttle into it and nearly died.

I remember two eps with the Crystalline Entity. I forget, was it explained why they couldn't simply torpedo the thing to death?

That wasn't the plan. Picard wanted to communicate with it. The only reason it was destroyed was because the old lady used the resonance thing on it.

Ah, yes. Even though the Crystalline Entity had wiped out an entire colony of humans, and even though it had likely wiped out thousands more, Picard wanted to communicate with it.

HemlockGrey wrote:Ah, yes. Even though the Crystalline Entity had wiped out an entire colony of humans, and even though it had likely wiped out thousands more, Picard wanted to communicate with it.

Of course. What else would you expect from Starfleet's finest?

Maybe Picard's secretly a member of that androgenyous species featured in TNG.

You know...no balls.

If I recall that episode correctly, Picard excused the entity's actions by comparing it to an orca attacking a school of fish and eating thousands (I don't remember the type of fish). The episode was written so that the old lady scientist enraged by Picard comparing the death of her son and thousands of others to the death of some fish came off as the unreasonable one. Typical hippie shit.

RedImperator wrote:If I recall that episode correctly, Picard excused the entity's actions by comparing it to an orca attacking a school of fish and eating thousands (I don't remember the type of fish). The episode was written so that the old lady scientist enraged by Picard comparing the death of her son and thousands of others to the death of some fish came off as the unreasonable one. Typical hippie shit.

Whales eating cuttle fish.

I wonder if Picard had spoken to it, it may have gone away or something.

Patrick Ogaard wrote:
In declining to attack the Enterprise-D once it was protected by shields and ready to attack the entity in turn, the entity displayed the intelligence of a moderately intelligent predatory animal.

I'm having a problem accepting or maybe understanding this part. Do you consider any animal on Earth "a moderately intelligent predatory animal", and if so you think it's reasonable to assume that a "deal" could be made with one if we could speak it's "language".....if I correctly understand the above, what do you base this off of?

Shinova wrote:I wonder if Picard had spoken to it, it may have gone away or something.

It may have, but it still needs to feed. It will just go kill someones elses people.....when you have a creature capable of stripping an entire planet bare (which is a medium in which humanoids require to exist) you don't play diplomacy.

You destroy it, because in this case it comes down to survival.

Shinova wrote:I wonder if Picard had spoken to it, it may have gone away or something.

"Go away, you...you big mean thing!"

Ender wrote:As I recall, the crystalline entity displayed a bit more intellegence then an orca. Lore was able to work out a specific plan that it wait and attack the second that a tree was being beamed out into space. That it understood to wait until then, and then attack, shows a bit more understanding then the majority of animals as it was demonstrating problem solving skills in addition to the intellegence needed to correctly interperate Lore's meansing. I'd say the thing was as smart as a chimp at least.

Orcas are probably about as smart as chimps. Orcas, being the biggest of the dolphins, are extremely smart as predatory animals go. Complex problem solving skills are something orcas have demonstrated in behavioral studies. There are even accounts of their having, in the age of sail whaling days, struck deals with the crews of whaling ships, assisting the whalers in taking down pods of whales (though I'd take those accounts with a grain of salt).

Also, ultimately the deal came down to the following: the entity is thwarted by the shields, Lore drops the shields to beam the tree out, the entity pounces and eats everyone but Lore. Thus, the message reduces to: I make shield go down, you eat all but me.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Patrick Ogaard wrote:
In declining to attack the Enterprise-D once it was protected by shields and ready to attack the entity in turn, the entity displayed the intelligence of a moderately intelligent predatory animal.

I'm having a problem accepting or maybe understanding this part. Do you consider any animal on Earth "a moderately intelligent predatory animal", and if so you think it's reasonable to assume that a "deal" could be made with one if we could speak it's "language".....if I correctly understand the above, what do you base this off of?

Sorry. I tend toward long and convoluted sentences. Not enough Hemmingway on my bookshelf.

A predator, like a wolf or a tiger, will not normally attack a target that looks like it can defend itself. Even a predator of comparatively low intelligence, like a shark or an alligator, will not normally do so. Attacking strong, active prey is stupid. Stupid predators tend to die without producing offspring. Only in desperation will a predator attack prey that looks strong.

(Dogs are an exception to this. Dogs are often trained and bred expressly to do stupid things like get themselves killed attacking something much bigger and stronger than they are.)

The entity took out at least one starship, a small transport with only minimal defensive armament. That proves that the entity can take on weak starships. Why risk getting killed or hurt trying to eat a big starship with strong shields if there are countless undefended worlds and weak starships out there to eat? But if the little squeaker (Lore) that led to lunch before squeaks again, why not try to super-size dinner by tricking the big, strong-shields meat into letting down its guard? That does not work, and so you head away and look for easier meat.

A deal with a moderately intelligent predatory animal, such as a wolf or a tiger, would naturally be limited by several factors. Most importantly, neither one has a sufficiently complex language (body language, scents and vocalizations) to allow a conversation more complex than the sort possible with a dog. Another factor is that the animal has a limited intellect that is not going to allow it to enter into complex treaty negotiations (nor would these be legally binding). Thus, the likeliest communications from the human side would be the following:

1) I'm tough and I know you're there, so don't even bother trying to eat me.
2) Eat this instead. It's free, and free food is easier than hunting me.
3) Get out of here or I'll make noise enough to chase away all prey. And, oh yeah, I'm tough, so don't bother trying to eat me.
4) Bang! You're dead.

Shinova wrote:I wonder if Picard had spoken to it, it may have gone away or something.

Obviously, the crystalline entity would have made Picard its herald and given him a cool silver paintjob and a transwarp surfboard. The baldness portion was already taken care of.

Jean-Luc Picard, Herald of Crysty, Kid Sister of Galactus.