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Starfleet ships seem to use anti-matter reactors which can explode violently if certain conditions are met (virus infecting the system, the reactor is breached by an impact, etc...) and completely destroy the ship and kill all its crew.

I'm curious what sort of effect a warp-core breach would have on a nearby inhabited planet. I know that ships like the Enterprise D and Voyager have reactors that can explode... but do shuttlecraft have reactors like that? I don't know what the shuttlecraft use for fuel but I suspect they use anti-matter unless there is evidence they use something else.

So, just because I like picking on Voyager and its crew, here are some questions:


1). Voyager encounters an Earth-like planet and put themselves in orbit. While the crew is on shore leave, Neelix decides to use the ships computer to surf the planets Internet and looks at some pronographic content. The ships computer gets a virus which infects all their vital systems and results in Voyagers warp core losing containment and exploding violently.

What effect would this have on the planet below?

2). After months without repair and the ship running dangerously low on food supplies, Voyager lands on the surface of an inhabited Earth-like planet so that engineering can perform delicate work on the warp core in a 1 g environment and the rest of the crew can either forage for berries, beg on street corners, or otherwise acquire the food they need to live. Torres is performing delicate work on the Warp Core when she accidentally removes a vital piece of the containment system without having anything else in place to contain the antimatter. Containment is lost and the ship explodes violently.

How would this effect the planet they are on?

3). The ship is cruising along at Warp 5 when a bee hits their windshield. All of the consoles in the bridge simultaneously explode in a shower of sparks, killing or blinding everyone at the controls. Due to hilariously (and tragically) bad navigation, their ship is on a direct collision course with an inhabited earth-like planet. They desperately try to repair or replace the exploded consoles but are too late and the ship crashes into the surface of the planet at superliminal speed (Actually, I'm not sure if they would 'pop' out of warp upon coming close to a planets gravity so they may simply hit it at relativistic speeds... I don't know). The ships crashes into the planet and explodes violently.

How would this effect the planet they crashed into?

4). Chakotay accidentally crashes a shuttle on a pre-warp Earth-like planet on the outskirts of a city. He hides it behind some vegetation and goes looking for help. After a wacky adventure, he leaves but neglects to retrieve the shuttle. Several days after he leaves, its reactor breaks down and loses whatever containment it might have. Presumably, if shuttles use anti-matter as fuel then it would explode violently but if it uses something else then it probably won't.

How would this effect the planet the shuttle crashed on?

Matter-antimatter reactions in a vacuum generate gamma rays and charged pions (that rapidly decay to neutrinos). A starship warp core cooking off in orbit would be like a large nuclear detonation in orbit. It would blind anybody unlucky enough to be looking directly at it and, depending on how it interacted with the magnetic field and upper atmosphere, produce an EMP pulse. If it happened in high orbit, then there would be no EMP, but it could still damage nearby satelites.

In the second scenario, the gamma rays are rapidly absorbed by the atmosphere (much like the X-ray flash from a nuclear detonation) and converted to visible light, heat, and a blast wave. Voyager essentially explodes like a giant nuclear bomb; yield is entirely dependent on how much antimatter was on board. The pions, I think, do survive long enough to impart some energy to the atmosphere as well, so the effective yield will be higher than a vacuum detonation.

Superluminal collisions break physics, so I won't even try to figure out what that would do. If it was a relativistic collision, the kinetic energy released by the ship's mass striking the planet would be substantially more than the energy of the matter-antimatter explosion (the antimatter would add to it, but depending on what velocities we're talking about, it might not add very much).

Fourth scenario, same thing. If it's antimatter powered, the shuttle explodes like a nuclear bomb. Since we don't see this happening in the show despite all the shuttle crashes, it seems likely they don't actually carry antimatter.

Regarding the shuttles, Star Trek has never been to clear on this. It's often implied that M/AM reactions are required for Warp Travel (obviously we know quantum singularities work as well), but shuttles are often described as being sub-light craft, with the exception of a few warp equipped versions.

Of course this is ridiculous when we often see our intrepid heroes leaving the Enterprise in a clearly sub-light shuttle and flying to another star system. Ironically, its one of the few things that moronic Enterprise episode with Tucker and Reed got right.

I've always assumed that they all have at least a limited short ranged warp capability. It is possible that their small size allows for a simple fusion reactor to power the warp field, and only larger shuttles and runabouts are equipped with dedicated M/AM reactors.

I am pretty sure fusion reactors (i.e. 'impulse drives') can give warp speed. M/AM reactors give better power with less fuel, and thus better efficiency as well as thrust.

Then again Star Trek has never been consistent before about this. The Romulan Bird of Prey in 'Balance of Terror' was described as having simple impulse power, which meant that the Enterprise could outrun it, but if it had sublight engines (which seems to be what people automatically assume when they hear impulse power or drive) then it wouldn't explain how it could strike at Federation outposts in interstellar space.

The shuttles have fairly limited range/speed, as they're usually described as having to rendezvous with the Enterprise at pre-arranged meeting points. I remember at least one instance where a shuttle was trying to pursue the Enterprise in 'Menagerie Part 1'. Kirk and the phantasm of Commodore Mendez went along until the fuel was exhausted.

In TNG/DS9, the Runabout is described as having a M/AM reactor, especially in one episode where it had to be ejected due to taking a hit. Runabouts are meatier than shuttles and can have sustained moderate warp travel for quite some time (I don't know if they ever gave it a max speed limit, but warp 4 or 5 seems reasonable to assume; in several episodes of DS9 they used runabouts to travel to earth - 'Apocalypse Rising' IIRC).

Shuttles have to be able to form their own warp field; how else was Kirk able to pursue the Enterprise in 'Menagerie part one'?

RedImperator wrote:Matter-antimatter reactions in a vacuum generate gamma rays and charged pions (that rapidly decay to neutrinos). A starship warp core cooking off in orbit would be like a large nuclear detonation in orbit. It would blind anybody unlucky enough to be looking directly at it and, depending on how it interacted with the magnetic field and upper atmosphere, produce an EMP pulse. If it happened in high orbit, then there would be no EMP, but it could still damage nearby satelites.

In the second scenario, the gamma rays are rapidly absorbed by the atmosphere (much like the X-ray flash from a nuclear detonation) and converted to visible light, heat, and a blast wave. Voyager essentially explodes like a giant nuclear bomb; yield is entirely dependent on how much antimatter was on board. The pions, I think, do survive long enough to impart some energy to the atmosphere as well, so the effective yield will be higher than a vacuum detonation.

These seem about right if the warp core was ejected, but also remember that the Warp Core is buried in a substantial amount of starship (I presume that the porno Neelix downloaded also froze the warp core's ejection system). This is going to alter it quite a bit, since the immediate effects of the warp core cooking off will go to vaporizing the thousands of tons of metal and gloominess that is the Voyager starship. Right there, a tremendous amount of energy will be absorbed and transfer to superheating debris and vapor. While the result will certainly be incandescent and brilliant, it's probably not going to be as hard on the eyes as a naked flash of radiation would be.

In the first scenario, the ideal thing would be that the explosion would be big enough to break Voyager into small enough bits of debris that the worst the planet experiences is a spectacular meteor shower. Their orbit is now flooded with crap, but that's not that bad if their ships have shields and will correct in a few years as the debris leaves orbit. It may be a hazard if they don't have shields, so incidental collisions with the shrapnel of the explosion may cause damage to space craft over the next few years. Bigger chunks of Voyager will be dangerous to things on the ground. If a good sized piece of hull strikes populated areas, it's not going to be pleasant. Depending on how resistant the shards are to burning in the atmosphere and over where the Voyager exploded, there could be significant damage from falling debris.

At least of Voyager explodes on the ground, you can write off that area, but it will be a pretty local disaster. Again, the explosion that occurs will mostly go to destroying Voyager, though the property damage around the ship should be pretty spectactular with lots of choking smoke and flying debris. This may be the bigger of the two disasters if it happens in an urban area, but possibly marginalized if the city planners put their spaceport for landing starships well in the country.

Stofsk wrote:I am pretty sure fusion reactors (i.e. 'impulse drives') can give warp speed. M/AM reactors give better power with less fuel, and thus better efficiency as well as thrust.

Then again Star Trek has never been consistent before about this. The Romulan Bird of Prey in 'Balance of Terror' was described as having simple impulse power, which meant that the Enterprise could outrun it, but if it had sublight engines (which seems to be what people automatically assume when they hear impulse power or drive) then it wouldn't explain how it could strike at Federation outposts in interstellar space.

Forgot about that one, partially because I always figured they had to have some sort of low level warp drive. I don't know if Enterprise retconned that as I never watched much of Season 4.

Stofsk wrote:The shuttles have fairly limited range/speed, as they're usually described as having to rendezvous with the Enterprise at pre-arranged meeting points. I remember at least one instance where a shuttle was trying to pursue the Enterprise in 'Menagerie Part 1'. Kirk and the phantasm of Commodore Mendez went along until the fuel was exhausted.

That episode really bugged the hell out of me even as a kid. The Enterprise was said to have warped out at high speed, yet here they are in a shuttle chasing it, which is the same as practically standing still. Then, after hours, the Enterprise just stops and beams them aboard, which would indicate a seriously long range considering they didn't turn around and go back. Yeah, shuttles have to have warp drive. I could see a dinky NextGen shuttle pod being capable of between Warp 1 and 2 or something, but regular and larger shuttles should be capable of at least Warp 3 and up.

Is there ever any mention in B-material(TNG Tech Manual?) of how much of the output for warp speeds goes to actual propulsion versus generating a warp field? Actually creating the environment in which something can travel faster than light must take a bit of energy, and the scale of that would obviously be lower for a shuttle massing, what, ten tonnes? As opposed to a GCS, which tips in at... Well I don't know, but a shit-tonne more.

Temujin wrote:Forgot about that one, partially because I always figured they had to have some sort of low level warp drive. I don't know if Enterprise retconned that as I never watched much of Season 4.

Why would it need retconning? Scotty only ever commented on their power, not their propulsion, and stated that the E-nil could outrun it easily. Why anyone ever assumed that they didn't have FTL (as B&B apparently did in Insurrection), given that BoT established that they'd fought an interstellar war a century earlier, is beyond me.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Temujin wrote:Forgot about that one, partially because I always figured they had to have some sort of low level warp drive. I don't know if Enterprise retconned that as I never watched much of Season 4.

Why would it need retconning? Scotty only ever commented on their power, not their propulsion, and stated that the E-nil could outrun it easily. Why anyone ever assumed that they didn't have FTL (as B&B apparently did in Insurrection), given that BoT established that they'd fought an interstellar war a century earlier, is beyond me.

Your right, and the impulse comment is one of the things I've always used to justify Romulan warp drive. However, I was just wondering if Ent S4 had shed anymore light on that statement either way, because apparently the argument still exists for some people.

tim31 wrote:Is there ever any mention in B-material(TNG Tech Manual?) of how much of the output for warp speeds goes to actual propulsion versus generating a warp field? Actually creating the environment in which something can travel faster than light must take a bit of energy, and the scale of that would obviously be lower for a shuttle massing, what, ten tonnes? As opposed to a GCS, which tips in at... Well I don't know, but a shit-tonne more.

The TM states that shuttle pods aren't warp capable (makes sense to me). Type 6 shuttles can go to warp 1.2 for 48 hours, or be upgraded to fly at warp 2 for 36 hours. The Type 7, which was featured more in the earlier seasons, is sead to be able to hit 1.75 for 48 hours, or again warp 2 for 36 if upgraded. They also talk about a cargo shuttle that is never seen, so I won't bore you with that one.

Edit: That doesn't actually speak to warp speed vs. warp field, so I don't think I actually answered your question. But it does give a general idea on what they could do via B-material.

Didn't we see this basic premise in VOY? They come across a planet that an early Earth probe had landed on, which contained the knowledge to build M/AM reactors and they wound up blowing them up and turning their planet into a frozen, radioactive wasteland.

That presupposes any of us actually bothered to watch Voyager.

You gave yourself up Aaron.

Shit!

Aaron wrote:Didn't we see this basic premise in VOY? They come across a planet that an early Earth probe had landed on, which contained the knowledge to build M/AM reactors and they wound up blowing them up and turning their planet into a frozen, radioactive wasteland.

I don't remember that one, could you give more information, please?

The closest one I remember is the one where there was a time loop and they accidentally blow up the planet that had super explosive power generation and distribution system.

Darmalus wrote:I don't remember that one, could you give more information, please?

He's talking about the episode "Friendship One".

What an amazingly bad episode, I'm rather glad I missed it. I guess that's par for the course for Voyager.

Back to the main topic. In vacuum, when the warp core goes ka-blooey, would the ship have enough mass for there to be debris that glows or is otherwise visible for a significant time? I understand a bomb would explode and scatter the material remains so fast you would be unlikely to see anything other than the flash, but would a starship of ST persuasion be large enough for there to be something visible to the unaided human eye?

This assumes the observer is somehow protected from being blinded by the flash.

Poor Carey.

So close to getting home and then this final insult after all the other shafting.

Destructionator XIII wrote:

Temujin wrote:I've always assumed that they all have at least a limited short ranged warp capability. It is possible that their small size allows for a simple fusion reactor to power the warp field, and only larger shuttles and runabouts are equipped with dedicated M/AM reactors.

That sounds pretty good.

My own pet theory is the ship gives the shuttle a boost, and the shuttle just sustains that warp field until it reaches the destination. All the instances that come to mind of taking a shuttle to another star system is them either taking it to a base or to meet another starship / get picked up by the Enterprise later, which means the destination can give them a new warp field to get home.

The problem is we don't see the streaking stars effect as shuttles fly, but meh, you can't win them all.

That explanation would also fit with the TNG tech manual explanation of how photon torpedoes are warp capable using a sustainer engine, but have to be launched at warp speed to do this.