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Through the power of Q or the Metrons or whatever, Worf and the Gorn from Arena are pitted together at the same place that Kirk and the Gorn fought. Worf is unarmed, but if it makes the scenario more interesting, he gets a knife. Who comes out on top?

Gorn. Kirk only won because he outsmarted the Gorn Captain.

On the other hand, Worf was probably taught about the scenario at the Academy, so he already knows what the solution to the problem is.

Aaron wrote:Gorn. Kirk only won because he outsmarted the Gorn Captain.

But aren't Klingons susposed to be signifigantly stronger and more durable than humans? Kirk had to outsmart the Gorn Captian, because he could not compete physically, I think a Klingon would be a more even match.

PhilosopherOfSorts wrote:

Aaron wrote:Gorn. Kirk only won because he outsmarted the Gorn Captain.

But aren't Klingons susposed to be signifigantly stronger and more durable than humans? Kirk had to outsmart the Gorn Captian, because he could not compete physically, I think a Klingon would be a more even match.

Not that much stronger; a good sized rock thrown by Kirk just bounced off the Gorn, and the Gorn threw a huge one right back at him. The Gorn would just yank Worf's arms off if they tried wrestling each other.

Now, if Worf has a knife it all depends on if he can cut the Gorn with it. The Gorn was so slow that if Worf can cut him Worf should be able to slice him to death without being touched in return.

Yeah, the Gorn in Arena might have well been Godzilla. For comparison of the rocks thrown, here's the scene.



Edit: Ignore the video title, obviously from a TOS hater.

Shatner vs a dinosaur should be called the best fight ever. But haters gotta hate.

Gorn no question. I believe we had a thread about wookie vs gorn years ago, where the rock throwing scene was broken down. I believe the conclusion was gorn wins out in terms of strength. Once again, for all the supposed Klingon physical superiority to humans where is it actually demonstrated? I seem to recall many instances of humans kicking the shit out of klingons in HtH fights (weapons and bare fists). Also with regards to the slowness of the Gorn captain, we need to keep in mind this was a guy in the late 1960s wearing a rubber suit in the desert, and of how reptiles and dinosaurs were viewed at the time. I believe later depictions of the Gorn (books, comics, ENT, etc.) to be rather more nimble in comparison. Personally I'd just ignore the Space RaptorTM from Enterprise and focus on the other media which I believe at least didn't radically change their physiology, while still having a greater degree of agility than was presented on screen.

Worf is an idiot, he'd probably try to get in close regardless as some kind of Klingon honor BS and get promptly squished.

Finally, why are we even assuming that this event would be taught at the academy? The only other character to make a reference to it was Sisko in the episode where they redid The Trouble With Tribbles. Really the only particular reason I'd even think that the whole issue would be brought up is as an example of botched first contact resulting from when you assume a particular uninhabited planet is unclaimed by another government. It may also serve as an example of why you should be aware of the fact the super advanced races exist. Neither instance in particular needs to go into detail about the fight. They really just need to go over the fact that the Enterprise responded to an attack on a colony, whose founding we find out was viewed as an aggressive/hostile act made by the Federation, and that the Metrons intercepted both vessels and forced the captains to fight to the death to gain their ships freedom. Probably with the main lesson being that while that incident was resolved relatively peacefully (no war occurred IIRC), that you should be careful when claiming "empty" planets/systems and when dealing with extremely advanced civilizations.

Wing Commander MAD wrote: I believe we had a thread about wookie vs gorn years ago, where the rock throwing scene was broken down. I believe the conclusion was gorn wins out in terms of strength.

Yes, in fact it's here. From way back in 2003. I'd forgotten about the scene where Kirk tips over a large boulder onto the Gorn and fails to kill him; that makes the likelihood of Worf being able to hurt the Gorn even less plausible.

Wing Commander MAD wrote:Gorn no question. I believe we had a thread about wookie vs gorn years ago, where the rock throwing scene was broken down. I believe the conclusion was gorn wins out in terms of strength. Once again, for all the supposed Klingon physical superiority to humans where is it actually demonstrated? I seem to recall many instances of humans kicking the shit out of klingons in HtH fights (weapons and bare fists). Also with regards to the slowness of the Gorn captain, we need to keep in mind this was a guy in the late 1960s wearing a rubber suit in the desert, and of how reptiles and dinosaurs were viewed at the time. I believe later depictions of the Gorn (books, comics, ENT, etc.) to be rather more nimble in comparison. Personally I'd just ignore the Space RaptorTM from Enterprise and focus on the other media which I believe at least didn't radically change their physiology, while still having a greater degree of agility than was presented on screen.

Worf is an idiot, he'd probably try to get in close regardless as some kind of Klingon honor BS and get promptly squished.

So we should take the size of the rock as an indicator of Gorn strength...but ignore his lack of speed because it's a special effects failure? Sorry, but I don't think you can take the one and not the other.

I'd give Worf a decent shot if he's not a complete idiot. Stand back and chuck stuff at him, or get behind him and stab him with something sharp; he doesn't seem to be able to react that quickly except in very short bursts. Just stay out of reach and you're OK.

Hell, he gets Kirk into a bear-hug and doesn't try to rip him apart; just squeezes for a bit, then gets smacked in the head and lets go.

Molyneux wrote:Hell, he gets Kirk into a bear-hug and doesn't try to rip him apart; just squeezes for a bit, then gets smacked in the head and lets go.

Given the Gorn's other feats of strength, the only in-universe explanation* I can think of is that something about the way his limbs are put together greatly limits the amount of force he can apply in that position. Like a crocodile having a much stronger ability to bite than to open its mouth.



* The real one naturally being "we can't have Kirk's insides squirt out like a tube of toothpaste squeezed too hard!"

Lord of the Abyss wrote:

Molyneux wrote:Hell, he gets Kirk into a bear-hug and doesn't try to rip him apart; just squeezes for a bit, then gets smacked in the head and lets go.

Given the Gorn's other feats of strength, the only in-universe explanation* I can think of is that something about the way his limbs are put together greatly limits the amount of force he can apply in that position. Like a crocodile having a much stronger ability to bite than to open its mouth.



* The real one naturally being "we can't have Kirk's insides squirt out like a tube of toothpaste squeezed too hard!"

...which would be a blow against Gorn intelligence. Though it did seem he was trying to bite, even if that is a really bad position to go for that kind of attack. Also: ears, apparently a Gorn weak point. Makes sense, we have the same problem.

Molyneux wrote:

Lord of the Abyss wrote:

Molyneux wrote:Hell, he gets Kirk into a bear-hug and doesn't try to rip him apart; just squeezes for a bit, then gets smacked in the head and lets go.

Given the Gorn's other feats of strength, the only in-universe explanation* I can think of is that something about the way his limbs are put together greatly limits the amount of force he can apply in that position. Like a crocodile having a much stronger ability to bite than to open its mouth.



* The real one naturally being "we can't have Kirk's insides squirt out like a tube of toothpaste squeezed too hard!"

...which would be a blow against Gorn intelligence.

Hmmmm, maybe. The Gorn after all was slow; he may have reasoned that it was worth it to nail Kirk down. He might not have even known about the ear trick if Gorn can't do it with their slower movement (shoving, instead of smacking).

Lord of the Abyss wrote:Hmmmm, maybe. The Gorn after all was slow; he may have reasoned that it was worth it to nail Kirk down. He might not have even known about the ear trick if Gorn can't do it with their slower movement (shoving, instead of smacking).

That might be true, good point. I haven't seen the episode in something like a decade, so my memory of the rest of the fight is somewhat fuzzy.

Watching that scene in the video closely again, Kirk has his forearm shoved against the Gorn's throat which would have prevented the Gorn from biting; and I also can't imagine it would feel too good either. It might have been enough to distract the Gorn from applying his full strength via the Gorn hug.

As noted, Worf ain't exactly the brightest bulb out there. We've seen nothing to suggest that Klingons are vastly stronger than humans, the way the Gorn was. I give this to the Gorn. I think Picard has a better chance here than Worf. He may figure out what Kirk did.

Skylon wrote:As noted, Worf ain't exactly the brightest bulb out there. We've seen nothing to suggest that Klingons are vastly stronger than humans, the way the Gorn was. I give this to the Gorn. I think Picard has a better chance here than Worf. He may figure out what Kirk did.

Picard could not even make fire ("Darmok"). What makes you think he could improvise a mortar out of native materials?

Patrick Degan wrote:

Skylon wrote:As noted, Worf ain't exactly the brightest bulb out there. We've seen nothing to suggest that Klingons are vastly stronger than humans, the way the Gorn was. I give this to the Gorn. I think Picard has a better chance here than Worf. He may figure out what Kirk did.

Picard could not even make fire ("Darmok"). What makes you think he could improvise a mortar out of native materials?

Yeah, Picard's a bit of an effete dandy.

And Worf, he's been bounced around by quite a few people: Borg, Roga Danar, Garak, old guys with parasities...uh, just watch the video and enjoy!

Wing Commander MAD wrote:Gorn no question. I believe we had a thread about wookie vs gorn years ago, where the rock throwing scene was broken down. I believe the conclusion was gorn wins out in terms of strength. Once again, for all the supposed Klingon physical superiority to humans where is it actually demonstrated? I seem to recall many instances of humans kicking the shit out of klingons in HtH fights (weapons and bare fists). Also with regards to the slowness of the Gorn captain, we need to keep in mind this was a guy in the late 1960s wearing a rubber suit in the desert, and of how reptiles and dinosaurs were viewed at the time. I believe later depictions of the Gorn (books, comics, ENT, etc.) to be rather more nimble in comparison. Personally I'd just ignore the Space RaptorTM from Enterprise and focus on the other media which I believe at least didn't radically change their physiology, while still having a greater degree of agility than was presented on screen.

To be fair to the Klingons, aren't Vulcans supposed to be physically superior to humans? We see Romulans and Vulcans get their asses handed to them in hand-to-hand combat by humans several times throughout the various series.

Moreover, in Space Seed, McCoy states that Khan is so strong he could probably hold him and Kirk off the ground with one arm easily. Khan didn't fare too well in hand-to-hand against Kirk, who used a conveniently placed metal rod to beat the snot out of Khan. The same Khan who we saw could easily pry apart "locked" doors in his quarters, and who in The Wrath of Khan easily lifted Chekov off the ground one-handed, even with his bulky spacesuit.

Clearly, superior strength doesn't equate to superior fighting capability. Even if the humans are using the silly Trek-fu that no one in their right minds would fight with.



As for the Gorn fight... If the Gorn was able to easily lift that boulder (it didn't seem to exert much effort) and then hurl it, whereas Kirk had to heft his much smaller rock and mostly depended on gravity to get it to the Gorn, he should have been able to easily crush Kirk when he had him in that bearhug. The fact that he didn't must be for a reason; perhaps the way their skeleton is arranged, Gorn can't squeeze things against their chests very well?

Its slow movements and repeated hissing/slurping noises are interesting, especially given the description of Gorn as being fairly nimble in other media. Maybe the atmospheric balance of gases was off, and it wasn't getting as much oxygen as it was used to, leaving it winded during the entire time on the planet? The one in Enterprise was much faster, but it also appeared different, especially the eyes. Maybe the mirror universe Gorn are genetically-engineered like the Suliban, or it belongs to a different subspecies? Maybe the eyes of the original Gorn were actually protective goggles it was wearing?

How much do we actually know about the Gorn, anyway?

Swindle1984 wrote:How much do we actually know about the Gorn, anyway?

Sadly, very little officially, they're a race that just begged for further development. Maybe it's for the better, after all, look what happened to the Klingons.

Quick post, I'll try to get back to this thread tomorrow.

Regarding the eyes, personally I prefer the original as it's something different and certainly alien compared to the rest of the aliens we see in the series, though I don't know how practical compound eyes would be on a bipedal organism. In real life, I think generally the only critters with that are insects. Another possibility, particularly if the whole compound eye deal won't work out, is that they are some kind of nictitating membrane.

Temujin wrote: And Worf, he's been bounced around by quite a few people: Borg, Roga Danar, Garak, old guys with parasities...uh, just watch the video and enjoy!

I don't know what was more embarrassing in that montage; Worf getting beaten up by Troi, getting beaten up by Ferengi, or losing a fight with a door.

Wing Commander MAD wrote:Quick post, I'll try to get back to this thread tomorrow.

Regarding the eyes, personally I prefer the original as it's something different and certainly alien compared to the rest of the aliens we see in the series, though I don't know how practical compound eyes would be on a bipedal organism. In real life, I think generally the only critters with that are insects. Another possibility, particularly if the whole compound eye deal won't work out, is that they are some kind of nictitating membrane.

I like the goggles idea. If the Gorn had them on to protect his eyes from sunlight (the planet was pretty sunny and I didn't see much shade; the Gorn in Enterprise was also running around with completely different eyes in a darkened starship. Maybe they're photosensitive?) or to enhance his vision (or display data on them like portable computer screens), and he was wheezing and moving slowly due to the atmosphere he was breathing, it makes them a little more realistic than the normal Trek alien who is just like us and perfectly suited to exactly the same environments as us.

The nictating membrane is interesting, but why would they look like compound eyes?

Swindle1984 wrote:

Wing Commander MAD wrote:Gorn no question. I believe we had a thread about wookie vs gorn years ago, where the rock throwing scene was broken down. I believe the conclusion was gorn wins out in terms of strength. Once again, for all the supposed Klingon physical superiority to humans where is it actually demonstrated? I seem to recall many instances of humans kicking the shit out of klingons in HtH fights (weapons and bare fists). Also with regards to the slowness of the Gorn captain, we need to keep in mind this was a guy in the late 1960s wearing a rubber suit in the desert, and of how reptiles and dinosaurs were viewed at the time. I believe later depictions of the Gorn (books, comics, ENT, etc.) to be rather more nimble in comparison. Personally I'd just ignore the Space RaptorTM from Enterprise and focus on the other media which I believe at least didn't radically change their physiology, while still having a greater degree of agility than was presented on screen.

To be fair to the Klingons, aren't Vulcans supposed to be physically superior to humans? We see Romulans and Vulcans get their asses handed to them in hand-to-hand combat by humans several times throughout the various series.

Moreover, in Space Seed, McCoy states that Khan is so strong he could probably hold him and Kirk off the ground with one arm easily. Khan didn't fare too well in hand-to-hand against Kirk, who used a conveniently placed metal rod to beat the snot out of Khan. The same Khan who we saw could easily pry apart "locked" doors in his quarters, and who in The Wrath of Khan easily lifted Chekov off the ground one-handed, even with his bulky spacesuit.

Clearly, superior strength doesn't equate to superior fighting capability. Even if the humans are using the silly Trek-fu that no one in their right minds would fight with.



As for the Gorn fight... If the Gorn was able to easily lift that boulder (it didn't seem to exert much effort) and then hurl it, whereas Kirk had to heft his much smaller rock and mostly depended on gravity to get it to the Gorn, he should have been able to easily crush Kirk when he had him in that bearhug. The fact that he didn't must be for a reason; perhaps the way their skeleton is arranged, Gorn can't squeeze things against their chests very well?

Its slow movements and repeated hissing/slurping noises are interesting, especially given the description of Gorn as being fairly nimble in other media. Maybe the atmospheric balance of gases was off, and it wasn't getting as much oxygen as it was used to, leaving it winded during the entire time on the planet? The one in Enterprise was much faster, but it also appeared different, especially the eyes. Maybe the mirror universe Gorn are genetically-engineered like the Suliban, or it belongs to a different subspecies? Maybe the eyes of the original Gorn were actually protective goggles it was wearing?

How much do we actually know about the Gorn, anyway?

That's a good point about why the Gorn seemed so slow. After all the Metrons wanted equalized fight conditions, and slowing the Gorn down would help compensate for its vastly superior strength. It's a very plausible explanation.

Swindle1984 wrote:The nictating membrane is interesting, but why would they look like compound eyes?

Perhaps the membrane is a mesh? It would partially block out light while still allowing for visibility, sorta like veils or whatnot.

Another explanation could be that the Gorn didn't have sweat glands, and seemed sluggish because it was afraid of heatstroke. They seemed to be fighting in a dry wasteland, after all. It's not a very good explanation, granted.