Been hearing about this

[IvanTih]

I've been hearing from this from a Trekkie,he says that Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons,he got that from TM.
That contradicts everything we see on screen.
How to debunk that.

[Lord Revan]

easiest way would to ask him to provide the line where said figure is provided preferbly in context and as a scan (so that he can't simply fake it).

also getting hold of said Technical Manual (which I assume TM refers to) and seeing for yourself if there's such a figure helps too.

also you approach it from the angle of the official canon policy which essentially says "what's onscreen is the highest canon end of story" (granted IIRC it also states that the TMs are speculation at best)

[IvanTih]

easiest way would to ask him to provide the line where said figure is provided preferbly in context and as a scan (so that he can't simply fake it).

also getting hold of said Technical Manual (which I assume TM refers to) and seeing for yourself if there's such a figure helps too.

also you approach it from the angle of the official canon policy which essentially says "what's onscreen is the highest canon end of story" (granted IIRC it also states that the TMs are speculation at best)

Did the contradicts the screen part already.Now I'm going to gain a hold of the TM.
By the way it's 40k vs Star Trek he argues since IOM has such massive power output through some unspecified mean(stellar level output) why can't Star Trek have that.

To quote him.

This is my bugbear about discussions such as these. If someone argues that IoM has greater manpower and equipment numbers than (insert opposing factions name here) then fine. But when they argue that IoM beats X because their weapons output huge numbers of 0's in damage, I have difficulty in accepting that, because there is no way that those figures can be relied upon as being correct, not because the individual making those calculations are wrong, but because the base foundation, ie a bit of fiction, is shaky to say the least.

Lets take the lasgun. 13MJ of energy hits the target so the initial enrgy to create that shot will be higher. How many shots does a lasgun pack hold? One of the facts proffered is that such a powerpack can be recharged in a wood fire. How much energy does a fire give off? I bet you that it doesn't even reach enough to make one shot let alone recharge an entire powerpack.

IoM ship power supplies. Fusion reactor. Someone somewhere said that a ships reactor gave 1e26 joules. The equivalent to the sun. I'm going to ignore the disparity of sizes here. The sun uses 4,000,000 tons of fuel a second. What fuel does the reactor use. Because to the best knowledge/searching by me (get out clause) there is no fuel that can meet that requirement.

Breaking the laws of science/physics. Another bugbear. I'm going to use a ST photon torpedo here. The good old 64MT vs 690GT.
The photon torpedo has a stated payload of 1.5kg antimatter. It has also been stated that that payload can be amended in some way to either act as a harmless firework display or a destructive yeild of 690GT. If someone wants to argue that their universe can break, to us, unmutable laws, then they also have to allow the same laxity to their opponents.

Using the last two points, our knowledge says that fusion reactors require fuel. 4MT roughly. 40K would argue that they provide it through some unstated/unidentified process unkown to us. So ST should be able to argue that through some unstated/unidentifed process 1.5kg of antimatter can be augmented to 690GT. What is so difficult about accepting that equality?

[Serafina]

First, the TM is NOT canon. Even it's own writer said that it's just "speculation", and Paramounts canon policy does not recognize it as canon.

Second, the TM gave an upper limit of 64 (or 128?) megatons - based upon the amount of antimatter in those torpedoes. However, that assumes a reaction with perfect efficiency. Furthermore, not all the products of such a reaction would be dangerous (e.g. neutrinos, alpha-radiation) and since they are not shape-charged only half of the energy would even hit the ship.

Third, on-screen evidence clearly overrules this - photon torpedoes are at best in the low-megaton range.

[IvanTih]

First, the TM is NOT canon. Even it's own writer said that it's just "speculation", and Paramounts canon policy does not recognize it as canon.

Second, the TM gave an upper limit of 64 (or 128?) megatons - based upon the amount of antimatter in those torpedoes. However, that assumes a reaction with perfect efficiency. Furthermore, not all the products of such a reaction would be dangerous (e.g. neutrinos, alpha-radiation) and since they are not shape-charged only half of the energy would even hit the ship.

Third, on-screen evidence clearly overrules this - photon torpedoes are at best in the low-megaton range.

So what about Mike Wong use of the TM?
Is there a thread on SD.net concerned on photon torpedoes and their firepower?
What about 40k power output?

[Serafina]

At the time he used it, the canonicity of the TM was still ambiguous. Only later it became clear that it has no status whatseover.

40K is roughly on par with SW-ships of the same size as far as weapons, shields etc. go - just keep in minds that 40K-ships tend to be a lot bigger.

[DaveJB]

Traditionally, people tend to allow information from the TNG and DS9 Technical manuals so long as it's shedding light on something that an episode doesn't make clear, and doesn't contradict information elsewhere in the Trek canon, purely because it's a better solution than just saying "No-one knows! Move along, nothing to see here."

Unfortunately for the Trekkie in question, not only would a 690GT yield for photons grossly contradict what we've seen on-screen (particularly in TNG: The Pegasus and VOY: Rise), the Technical Manuals don't even support such a figure; they pretty explicitly give 64MT as the theoretical maximum yield for a photon torpedo - the DS9 one I believe also gives 128MT for quantum torpedoes - and simple physics show that you can't get more destructive power out of the amount of antimatter used.

[IvanTih]

At the time he used it, the canonicity of the TM was still ambiguous. Only later it became clear that it has no status whatseover.

40K is roughly on par with SW-ships of the same size as far as weapons, shields etc. go - just keep in minds that 40K-ships tend to be a lot bigger.

So what about Connor's analysis of Exterminatus and Caves of Ice?

[IvanTih]

Found this on a Memory Alpha,I don't trust a wiki so I assume that is an error.

By using standard physics calculations, a payload of 1.5 kilograms equals to about 64 megatons.

The second type, at maximum yield, achieves the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture. Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 69) Density of mere liquid antideuterium is around 160 kilograms per cubic meter. According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons. For the sake of plausibility the affected blast area at these intensities might be extremely small. Visual effects on-screen would seem to confirm this.
Calculator: http://edwardmuller.com/calculator.htm

[SeaTrooper]

To quote him.

...Using the last two points, our knowledge says that fusion reactors require fuel. 4MT roughly. 40K would argue that they provide it through some unstated/unidentified process unkown to us. So ST should be able to argue that through some unstated/unidentifed process 1.5kg of antimatter can be augmented to 690GT. What is so difficult about accepting that equality?

To point to consider is that ST actually states what they use in their warhead, thereby opening them themselves up to having the yield of that much AM calculated. Comparing ST to 40k then becomes a simple matter of matching numbers. Again, though, the 64Mt figure produced by calculating 1.5kg of AM does not match the results seen on screen; which is one of the many reasons we insist that figure is a maximum upper limit. Both in and out of universe, a far lower figure would be inevitable.

Of course, then we start seeing PTs that act like cannon-balls in later ST films. Go figure...

[Serafina]

Oh, i didn't see that bullshitter-quote. Let's deal with it:

Lets take the lasgun. 13MJ of energy hits the target so the initial enrgy to create that shot will be higher. How many shots does a lasgun pack hold? One of the facts proffered is that such a powerpack can be recharged in a wood fire. How much energy does a fire give off? I bet you that it doesn't even reach enough to make one shot let alone recharge an entire powerpack.

Let him do a calculation. Take a large fire and several hours (at least 8.). Place the object (about as large as a modern rifle magazine, but a cube) into the hottest place of the fire. Calculate the energy put into the power pack.
Note that this does not necessarily recharge the power-pack fully.

IoM ship power supplies. Fusion reactor. Someone somewhere said that a ships reactor gave 1e26 joules. The equivalent to the sun. I'm going to ignore the disparity of sizes here. The sun uses 4,000,000 tons of fuel a second. What fuel does the reactor use. Because to the best knowledge/searching by me (get out clause) there is no fuel that can meet that requirement.

Already addressed by me in another threat. The reactors aboard ships, titans etc. are called plasma reactors, NOT fusion reactors. Just because something involves plasma, it does not have to be fusion. We also know that they effectively draw energy from the warp - therefore, no fuel consumption hast to be necessary.

Using the last two points, our knowledge says that fusion reactors require fuel. 4MT roughly. 40K would argue that they provide it through some unstated/unidentified process unkown to us. So ST should be able to argue that through some unstated/unidentifed process 1.5kg of antimatter can be augmented to 690GT. What is so difficult about accepting that equality?

40K-plasma reactors explicitly tap into the warp, which is known to be a power source. No such external source exists for Star Trek, nor is it ever mentioned. Nor does it have to be assumed, since the observed effects can be readily explained by matter-antimatter reactions.
In the end, you can NOT disprove observed effects by talking about how realistic they are. By that logic, i could throw out pretty much all of sci-fi - but by suspension of disbelief, i have to accept that an observed effect is possible in that specific sci-fi universe.

[IvanTih]

How do we know that they use warp?

[Serafina]

How do we know that they use warp?

I don't have any quotes handy right now. There are some references to "warp plasma" and the like that point to it tough.
But even if we wouldn't know - plasma reactors are clearly NOT fusion reactors. Just because they are called "plasma reactors" and fusion reactors use plasma, you can not assume that - and given that they clearly work very differently from fusion reactors, that coincidence would never allow such a conclusion.

Essentially, that dipshit is trying to do this:
1: Use the name to claim that they are fusion reactors. Doesn't work, see above.
2: Show the limitations of fusion reactors. Viable, but irrelevant
3: Claim that these limits therefore apply to 40K-technology. Ignores all possible way they could circumvent those.
4: Claim that the observed feats of 40K are therefore impossible. Doesn't work, technological conjecture does not override observation.
5: Decleare victory. Given that all of the above is invalid, totally unjustified.

[IvanTih]

If anyone is interested here's the link.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/po ... 99586.page

[Azron_Stoma]

I was one of the first people to be subjected to the 690 gigaton bs that has been becoming more and more popular with Trektards who can't read.

It comes from a line in the Tech Manual that states the Photon torpedo has a higher energy release rate than the antimatter storage pods.

There's a problem here, because they are clearly ignoring the "Rate" part of the statement, and assuming it means higher energy release.

This is clearly not the case, not just from on screen footage, or even from the fact that the TM is non-canon. The Rate part is not an insignificant detail. It means that Photon torpedoes release their energy faster than the detonation of an antimatter storage pod, which makes perfect sense since Photon torpedoes are supposed to store matter and antimatter in pellets rather than a big crate, these pellets stored in a matter/antimatter/matter/antimatter alternating fashion. An antimatter storage pod has more antimatter than matter in the casing, and would of course be extremely inefficient by default.

IE Photon Torpedoes simply release their energy faster, they do not release more energy than a storage pod, even with taking into account the fact that a storage pod doesn't have enough matter to react with even half it's antimatter, so even it's max theoretical energy yield would be measured by it's casing's dry mass, not by it's antimatter mass.

By using generous TNG:TM payload of 1.5kg and the DS9:TM efficiency of 74% combined with the omni-directional blast factor halving the value, we get 24 megatons effective yield when fired in vacuum and 48 megatons if used in an orbital bombardment against a planet with an atmosphere.

[Stofsk]

I'm sick and tired of hearing that the tech manuals are non-canon.

"Only the reference books (tech manual, encyclopedia, etc...) and two books by Jeri Taylor are considered canon outside the TV show and movies." - Harry Lang, Senior Director of Viacom Consumer Products Interactive division, posts on StarTrek.com forum, January 2005.

[Vympel]

I'm sick and tired of hearing that the tech manuals are non-canon.

"Only the reference books (tech manual, encyclopedia, etc...) and two books by Jeri Taylor are considered canon outside the TV show and movies." - Harry Lang, Senior Director of Viacom Consumer Products Interactive division, posts on StarTrek.com forum, January 2005.

They're not canon. That was pretty expressly debunked by Paula Block in December 2005 on the very same forums - none of the books are canon, only what is on-screen is. The Jeri Taylor books were at best according to her - quasi canon- and only for as long as she was working on Voyager. Such was backed up by every Trek writer / author on the forum, and has been backed up in the past by Ronald D Moore.

So yeah - you're wrong.

[Stofsk]

Fuck Ronald Moore! I don't trust a word that hack says.

Can you provide a quote of Paula Block saying so, because I can't seem to find it?

[Vympel]

Fuck Ronald Moore! I don't trust a word that hack says.

Can you provide a quote of Paula Block saying so, because I can't seem to find it?

It's on the Darkstar Hatemail page on the main site, with .pdf links to the relevant forum pages.

Okay, none of the books are canon. That's 100% true. While Jeri Taylor was actively involved with Star Trek, we allowed the licensees to treat her two books as quasi-canon for their projects (because the folks at Voyager weren't likely to contradict them in their episodes). And that worked pretty well for a while. After she left Voyager, however, the other writers on the show pretty much did what they wanted (I doubt they ever read her books), so the books eventually stopped being even quasi-canon.

This doesn't mean that the fiction writers working for Pocket can't use Jeri's books as background for their stories. It's a free country. But they're not "canon". Nothing that wasn't onscreen (tv or movie screen) is canon. You guys are so into this "canon" thing. It's just a word, guys. It's not the ten commandments. All it means is that we try not to let people contradict the stuff that was on-screen, but we don't care if all the fiction authors contradict each other's books. Sigh.

I think the TMs are best treated as background material to fill gaps in our knowledge, but we should be leery of relying on them or elevating them as a go-to source.

[Stofsk]

It almost seems like she's repudiating Jeri Taylor's contributions to print media in that quote.

You have to admit this is pretty muddled. Harry Leng said one thing which is clearly contradicted by Paula Block. A case of Paramount/Viacom's left hand not knowing what the right is doing? Although I do like her attitude regarding canon.

[Temujin]

Too bad that a better fleshed out version of the TM, with more input for actual scientists, wasn't developed as part of a bible for TNG and subsequent shows. Then, assuming they actually forced the writers to adhere to it, perhaps we'd have gotten a more consistent show with better quality scripts. And farming out the writing to actual science fiction writers wouldn't have hurt either.

[Thanas]

If anyone is interested here's the link.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/po ... 99586.page

A non-public forum that we cannot read without signing up.

[IvanTih]

If anyone is interested here's the link.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/po ... 99586.page

A non-public forum that we cannot read without signing up.

Yeah pretty much,but I'm annoyed by him,he ignores evidence and tells me that I must be wrong.
I give him link to Grand 40k Sticky to shatter his wall of ignorance,but he still rants about those calcs don't mesh well.

[Lord Revan]

Ofc they don't "mesh well" as they don't agree with him 100%, the thruth of the matter is that you're unlikely to convince to consede even in a minor point, so it's better to try to win the audience to your side then to make him admit defeat (because he won't).

[IvanTih]

Ofc they don't "mesh well" as they don't agree with him 100%, the thruth of the matter is that you're unlikely to convince to consede even in a minor point, so it's better to try to win the audience to your side then to make him admit defeat (because he won't).

I bring numerous examples,calcs,evidence,I even disproved the Borg wank on that forum,ST wank in general and demonstrated 40k firepower.
Also TM is not cannon,can anyone provide quote of this,to disprove the guy who believes that they are cannon.