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Okay, Torres has a shuttle accident, and eventually discovers that she has arrived in Klingon hell. There she discovers that because she didn't follow the Klingon religion and culture, she and her mother are fated to go there. So for the rest of the episode, she tries to follow the Klingon path and ensure that she becomes a good little faithful Klingon.

This seems like a Klingon version of a Jack Chick tract.

I thought Worf said the Klingons killed their gods.

That's right, but how's that relevant here? The show never said that the gods created or ran Gre'thor, the Klingon hell.

So you don't like a TV show telling you that gods and religion are real and that if you don't believe in the one you were born into you go to their specific version of hell?

Considering some of the other messages the show has been preaching over the years *cough* "Prime Directive" *cough* this one is a lot milder in terms of simply being a plot aid like subspace and other stuff.

PS. The 1st paragraph is sarcasm and is not to be taken as a denial the moral abhorrence of that episode and it's message.

Jeremy wrote:I thought Worf said the Klingons killed their gods.

They did.

The boatman in the episode was Kortar, the man who helped kill said gods.

FaxModem1 wrote:Okay, Torres has a shuttle accident, and eventually discovers that she has arrived in Klingon hell. There she discovers that because she didn't follow the Klingon religion and culture, she and her mother are fated to go there. So for the rest of the episode, she tries to follow the Klingon path and ensure that she becomes a good little faithful Klingon.

This seems like a Klingon version of a Jack Chick tract.

Well, they already had the Native American Stereotype Chick tracts. Why not Klingon as well?

FaxModem1 wrote:Okay, Torres has a shuttle accident, and eventually discovers that she has arrived in Klingon hell. There she discovers that because she didn't follow the Klingon religion and culture, she and her mother are fated to go there. So for the rest of the episode, she tries to follow the Klingon path and ensure that she becomes a good little faithful Klingon.

This seems like a Klingon version of a Jack Chick tract.

I'm a little offended by the concept of Star Trek showing any afterlife at all, really. It always felt to me the kind of thing that should be left up in the air as far as the show was concerned.

For that matter, isn't she half-Klingon? What the hell is the reason for a Klingon afterlife being shoehorned into the show, with nary a mention of any human equivalent?

It's fucking Voyager - the whole goddamn show offends me.

It was also all hallucination during a coma.

Terralthra wrote:It was also all hallucination during a coma.

Ah, that's not too much of an issue, then. I never saw the end of that episode.

Molyneux wrote: I'm a little offended by the concept of Star Trek showing any afterlife at all, really. It always felt to me the kind of thing that should be left up in the air as far as the show was concerned.

Hmmmm, in a S4 episode Neelix died in a Shuttle Accident of the Week (TM) but with the twist that he died for many minutes, though unfortunately he was resurrected by Seven's nano-machines and Neelix did not recall the Talaxian afterlife, just experienced total oblivion, and Neelix had his faith so undermind he contemplated suicide...

"Barge of the Dead" being Klingon heavy can easily be attributed to it being penned by Ronald D. Moore.

Could Torres' experiance be chalked up to hallucinations from internal cranial bleeding?

Srelex wrote:Could Torres' experiance be chalked up to hallucinations from internal cranial bleeding?

Sure, or some other natural brain thing.

On the other hand, her actual punishment in Hell was to be stuck on Voyager eternally, which sounds pretty plausible. I can't imagine any greater torment.

I can. Imagine being trapped in Voyager forever, alone with Nelix.

Nah, if you're alone with Neelix... there are no witnesses. Perfect.

Crazedwraith wrote:Nah, if you're alone with Neelix... there are no witnesses. Perfect.

How about with an immortal Neelix? Though, honestly, I never found him THAT annoying when the show was on. As far as scrappies go, he's a fairly likeable one.

How about being trapped in Voyager forever, surrounded by immortal scrapies of all shapes and sizes. From the iconic Scrappy Doo to the Nelix and than just for flavor add a little Wesley Crusher?

That should ruin your day.

And Janeway running the whole show.

It's supposed to be Christmas time, where we talk about happy things till we get sick of each other and then shoo each other away after one too many eggnog and that slip about how your mom's a little too fat goes too far. This shouldn't be the place to find nightmare fuel to last me till this time next year, dammit!

Actually though, I agree that while Neelix is fun to pick on, he's really not that bad overall, I just think his antics were put up with too much for the show's own good.

As far as the whole Klingon Hell thing, it's an excellent chance to show a bit about the Klingons that hasn't been shown before, even if it does stink of cultural homogenization that ALL Klingons feel this way. Given all the religions on Earth, staying away from portraying anyone going to a human Hell was probably safe, since the only gospel we see being preached is that of how Starfleet and the Federation is so perfect.

I'd like to think that in a few centuries we MIGHT could overcome some of the biggest obstacles to being a fairly unified peoples, but not to the extent they show some of the species on Star Trek. It seems each new planet of the week is shallow as a cardboard cutout when it comes to their culture, history, etc. And I could harp on this more, but I also know that we can't really complain too much because if we spent too much screen time delving into all of it, we'd be better off turning Voyager into another DS9 for 7 seasons.

Actually the original TOS pilot "The Cage" showed human hell, at least for a moment when Captain Pike is shown in a cave surrounded by fire and a pool of what appears to be burning acid ("From a fable you once heard in childhood").

Of course it was a mental illusion created by the Talosians, but still.

I didn't find this episode offensive.

The Klingons had already been shown to be rather religious, so the idea of Belana having a 'vision' of Klingon Hell is no big deal.

Especially when it was caused by a combination of a head injury, her emotional baggage from her family, and he getting out of the vision by dealing with it all, and her 'Mom' even going 'Hey, this isn't real, I might see you when you get home.'

It was a trauma induced brain-fuck. Nothing more.

Now, the finale of Voyager, that offends.

Now, the finale of Voyager, that offends.

Sign me up with that.

In essence, the ending felt like the writers were sending us a message:
"This (old Janeway) is a glimpse of what we could have done had you been proper fans and had we been given free hands and an infinite budget. Instead, take this (ending episodes) and choke on it."

Molyneux wrote:I'm a little offended by the concept of Star Trek showing any afterlife at all,

What about janeway's alien induced afterlife episode? (or had you put that out of your mind?)

aussiemuscle308 wrote:

Molyneux wrote:I'm a little offended by the concept of Star Trek showing any afterlife at all,

What about janeway's alien induced afterlife episode? (or had you put that out of your mind?)

Bit of a thread necro, there...but anyhow, I honestly don't recall that episode at all. When did that happen? And even so - yes, I find the concept of Star Trek showing an afterlife to be offensive. It's soft sci-fi, but damn it, it's still science fiction, not fantasy. Things like Q are sufficiently advanced aliens, not magic - and an afterlife, to me, falls under the purview of magic.

Molyneux wrote:I honestly don't recall that episode at all. .

Lucky you. basically Janeway is knocked out and an alien takes over her brain. She thinks she's dead and witnesses her own funeral. her father shows up to escort her to heaven. She figures out it's an alien and is able to 'fight' it out of her.

so basically it's the exact same scenario that they've rewritten for Barge of the Dead episode. (ie she thinks she's dead but is not really, so it all doesn't matter in the end)