StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I don't know what it was about this review but it made me laugh quite a bit, even though it's ranked as a middling episode and those tend to be more difficult. Also, Linkara is going to be so happy that he got a mention in your reviews.

In regard to the whole Historical Status of Black Peole thing Sisko brought up in this episode, it comes across as very unnatural from a worldbuilding perspective, given that he is 400 years from the events of 1960s vegas. Its kinda like of like a modern north american white guy not wanting to participate in a medieval fantasy RPG because his ansestors were serfs, given how far removed Sisko is from that.

Zor

Zor wrote:In regard to the whole Historical Status of Black Peole thing Sisko brought up in this episode, it comes across as very unnatural from a worldbuilding perspective, given that he is 400 years from the events of 1960s vegas. Its kinda like of like a modern north american white guy not wanting to participate in a medieval fantasy RPG because his ansestors were serfs, given how far removed Sisko is from that.

Zor

Yes, and it's even more out of place compared to the sexism and Patriarchal society aspect Chuck brought up. I mean the the most blatant phase of racism towards black people lasted for less than 500 years, but the male-dominated Patriarchal society lasted for thousands of years and even in the 24th century would still account for about 80% of historical period (assuming there were no relapses after 20th century, and in fact the TOS era would probably count as one...)

Bear in mind that he was Benny Russell for a period, and as such might be a little more sensitive to US 20th century racism.

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Yes, and it's even more out of place compared to the sexism and Patriarchal society aspect Chuck brought up. I mean the the most blatant phase of racism towards black people lasted for less than 500 years, but the male-dominated Patriarchal society lasted for thousands of years and even in the 24th century would still account for about 80% of historical period (assuming there were no relapses after 20th century, and in fact the TOS era would probably count as one...)

And it often appears that the Federation has still not overcome all the problems of a patriarchal society. They are certainly much better than those times, and probably better than we are, but that doesn't mean that they don't have some remnants of sexism or a patriarchal power structure.

As has already been mentioned, remember Sisko's experience as "Benny Russell", which would still be fairly fresh at this time. I think that needs to be taken into consideration on the matter.

Steve wrote:As has already been mentioned, remember Sisko's experience as "Benny Russell", which would still be fairly fresh at this time. I think that needs to be taken into consideration on the matter.

Then again, this does bring up some other questions about Demographics in the Federation. Namely, why the African American demographic still exists instead of being fully assimilated into the mainstream of society. Honestly, i would expect in a society where Racism went the way of the Dodo Centuries ago intermarriage would have fused people together.

And yes, i understand the casting realities, the desire for this to have todays minorities present and all that stuff as to why everyone Human is not Beige with Brown hair from a TV production standpoint.

Zor

Zor wrote:

Steve wrote:As has already been mentioned, remember Sisko's experience as "Benny Russell", which would still be fairly fresh at this time. I think that needs to be taken into consideration on the matter.

Then again, this does bring up some other questions about Demographics in the Federation. Namely, why the African American demographic still exists instead of being fully assimilated into the mainstream of society. Honestly, i would expect in a society where Racism went the way of the Dodo Centuries ago intermarriage would have fused people together.

Four hundred years is what, twenty generations?

Is that enough time for what you propose?

Likely not, since at least part of that time was lost to the devastation of the Khan and WWIII conflicts plus rebuilding. There are also technical limitations to casting so many crews composing of multi-ethnic people (namely, getting the right people for the roles). Nor does an end to racism necessarily mean all the Human ethnicities will meld together.

Well, its one of those things. You'd think both the existence of aliens and the notion that Earth finally worked everything out, that thinking in terms of ethnicity would be a really alien thing to Sisko. Social engineering supposedly ended racism ages ago in StarTrek, if you believe Roddenberry, they even did an thinly vieled episode about it in TOS. If though he had experience as Benny Russell, race wasn't the the problem in those episodes and as far as I can remember never brought up, it was class and poverty that was the issue. So it is kind of weird that Sisko would think in terms of race, except as a general "human race".

Gil Hamilton wrote:If though he had experience as Benny Russell, race wasn't the the problem in those episodes and as far as I can remember never brought up, it was class and poverty that was the issue.

I think you're getting it confused with "Past Tense" - in his Benny Russell moments the racism of the US in the 50s was a significant issue, and I can easily see it as being the reason why Sisko was getting worked up about what everyone else saw as ancient history.

Aha, so I am. I didn't recall that episode. I confused his being Benny Russell in the past with him being Gabriel Bell in the past.

Steve wrote:Nor does an end to racism necessarily mean all the Human ethnicities will meld together.

I don't see why it would not be so, at least in the long term. If all prejudices against it are removed, i don't see any barrier outside of aesthetic preference to stand in its way. And even then, that can go the other way and shift in one generation.

And as i said, i understand the casting realities and such.

Zor

I think you'll find ethnicity goes deeper than that. i find white women more attractive than black women and i don't think of myself as racist, and i'm attracted to a few african-american actresses, but not as many. i'm not sure other men feel the same, black or white?

aussiemuscle308 wrote:I think you'll find ethnicity goes deeper than that. i find white women more attractive than black women and i don't think of myself as racist, and i'm attracted to a few african-american actresses, but not as many. i'm not sure other men feel the same, black or white?

Human ethnicities arose as populations were made distinct from each other and adapted to their particular climate.
Once the cultural barriers against 'marrying outside your race' are broken, people can and will do so. It doesn't matter that you don't find it particularly appealing, other people will. And the more people who do, the less defined the 'races' become, as the genetic intermixing undoes the distinctions that divide the ethnicities. This has actually been going on for many many generations, but not on a large scale, mostly due to said cultural barriers.

Seriously, with neither environmental or cultural reasons to keep the races distinct, they'll blend. It's only a matter of how long it'll take.

This episode's a guilty pleasure of mine, much like "His Way".

I'm a sucker for jazz and heist plots.