Jellico vs Maxwell

[Rommel123]

Which character you prefer? I slightly prefer Maxwell for his more "human" approach and history with O'Brien, but both characters are good.

And I choose these two beacouse they are probably closest to pure soldier you can get in TNG Starfleet. If someone is causing you trouble... blow him up.

[Crazedwraith]

Well Jellico was an ass but he wasn't a loose cannon warmonger, so he scrapes out a win.

[Gil Hamilton]

As a character, I prefer Maxwell. If the episode plot and the general nature of StarTrek weren't REQUIRED to make him completely wrong and Picard completely right, he'd have been a very interesting character. If they made a grey area, the Wounded could have been a very compelling episode.

Jellico wasn't that interesting and tends toward some fanwank, I think largely because he told Troi to put on a goddamn uniform when she was on duty.

[Metahive]

Didn't the episode Maxwell appeared in indicate that he wasn't completely wrong, that the Cardassians were indeed arming up?

[The Romulan Republic]

Didn't the episode Maxwell appeared in indicate that he wasn't completely wrong, that the Cardassians were indeed arming up?

Yes, at the end Picard points this out as I recall.

It wasn't that Maxwell's conclusions were entirely wrong, but rather that his methods for dealing with the situation were.

[Skylon]

Warmongering aside, what does it say that Maxwell was the only character we run into during the TNG era, who when he meets Will Riker, the first thing he does is shake his hand and say "Good job you did with the Borg...we all owe you for that."

[Gil Hamilton]

Didn't the episode Maxwell appeared in indicate that he wasn't completely wrong, that the Cardassians were indeed arming up?

Wrong morally and very likely insane, so he didn't have a point compared to Picard, such there was no gray area. The same with that Voyager episode "Jetrel" where you meet the guy who blew up one of the Talaxian's moons during a war. In order for Neelix to be in the right, Jetrel had to be in the wrong and also insane.

[Rommel123]

Regarding Maxwell... I think he himself put it very well. "I prevented new war (with Cardassians), or at least put it off for a good time". It is made clear several times that Cardassians are only looking to expand wherever they can, and only thing that keeps them checked is fear of Federation. And not two years later, Cardassians attempted to take Minos Korva - that was probably "limited" invasion, in hope that Federation won't retaliate in force for one system (althought I think that, had not Jellico sent Cardassians packing, "situation" had potential to cause another war - I doubt Federation would just sit back with popcorns and watch Cardassians invade it's territory. And without events in Wounded, it might as well be full-scale invasion instead of "invade a sector and hope there won't be retaliation").

But both characters are good - and their attitude is probably enough to make anyone who says that Starfleet isn't military packing.

@Crazedwraith Jellico wasn't ass, he was soldier, and commander of warship which was about to find itself in middle of some very... interesting events.

[Stofsk]

No, Jellico was an ass. He did too many things to disrupt the routine of the ship which would be inadvisable considering they were zooming off into a potential conflict. And he did so mainly because it was 'his way', and to hell with anyone who disagreed. He was arrogant and abrasive and he didn't need to be.

He also did some spectacularly reckless things which put the Enterprise in serious jeopardy without support, but because he managed to get the drop on the Cardassians it was ok, and thus an internet legend was born...

[Skylon]

This thread got me thinking, it would have been cool if Maxwell could have returned in DS9. The writers did love to have the seasonal "O'Brien must suffer episode." You could have the plot involve some "behind enemy lines" type mission during the Dominion War where Maxwell's knowledge of Cardassian space needed by the DS9 crew, and he gets temporarily released from prison.

[The Romulan Republic]

That could have been really interesting, but they did something similar with Eddington didn't they?

[Skylon]

That could have been really interesting, but they did something similar with Eddington didn't they?

Dang. Yeah, they did. Still, Maxwell would have been a good character to revisit, given his connection to O'Brien, and that by the later seasons of DS9 he may see himself as vindicated for his actions in "The Wounded" as the Federation was now in a full blown war with the Cardassians.

[Gil Hamilton]

That is an interesting point. During the events of "The Wounded", Picard handed over the means to track Federation transponder codes to the Cardassians in order to locate the Phoenix, which it was pointed out that this would allow the Cardassians to track ALL Federation ships. Within a few years of that event, the Cardassians had joined the Dominion and were in an active state of war with the Federation. I wonder how much Picard's betrayal of sensitive military information that allowed the Cardassians to track at range Federation vessels bit StarFleet in the ass.

[The Romulan Republic]

That is an interesting point. During the events of "The Wounded", Picard handed over the means to track Federation transponder codes to the Cardassians in order to locate the Phoenix, which it was pointed out that this would allow the Cardassians to track ALL Federation ships. Within a few years of that event, the Cardassians had joined the Dominion and were in an active state of war with the Federation. I wonder how much Picard's betrayal of sensitive military information that allowed the Cardassians to track at range Federation vessels bit StarFleet in the ass.

I would hope they were smart enough to change the codes.

[Gil Hamilton]

I would hope they were smart enough to change the codes.

That doesn't jive with StarFleet computer security, where their computers will honor and run any foriegn packet that anyone sends it and Ensign Ro can break into Federation border security by merely knowing how the algorithim works (which she did in Pre-Emptive Strike) that an encryption was made from. Besides, if it were a matter of merely changing the codes, Maxwell could have done so or just turned the ships transponder system off and the trick wouldn't have worked.

Further, when is it ever a good idea repeatedly hand sensitive military secrets to people whom you merely have a cease fire with and you know are hostile to you?

[Gil Hamilton]

hurf durf trek sux

Ah, nice rebuttle. However, it's a canon fact. Multiple episodes have centrally depending on the computer executing programs it finds without asking and ths putting the ship in Mortal Peril. Doing this has even blown up a Galaxy class starship.

This has nothing to do with my opinion of StarTrek (which is actually positive), but rather a facet of the universe that is presented in the show. Federation computers running anything that asks politely and that all encryption/systems can be broken in minutes or hours of effort merely by being familiar with it is the show standard.

Keep in mind that she was on an official undercover mission there - she might have actually had the code and was just bullshitting to keep her cover. She did something similar in the next scene where she "punched" through the Enterprise's shields to beam the stuff out. Picard simply opened the door for her in a covert way.

That episode does say they change the codes frequently though. "Gambit" is another one where they say they change codes frequently - when Riker uses his, someone on the bridge says he must have known it'd be changed the moment he was captured. (Again though, Captain Data orders the ship to play along anyway)

Yes, the one Maquis says that the codes are changed frequently in the previous line of dialogue. That's the point, Ro says she can beat the system by knowing how Federation security codes are generated. At that point, the people she was setting up could have easily called shenanigans. If she's familiar enough with the system in place, he could immediately point out that any security codes than can be beat because you happen to be familiar with how they are generated are really shitty codes... unless it were true. Keeping in mind that the Maquis in question was the one that was suspicious of Ro being a spy in the first place, and went along to make sure Ro wasn't up to no good.

Given what we know about Starfleet computer security and that the Maquis had every reason to be skeptical, unless you've got some actual evidence that Ro was lying, we don't have any reason to think that Ro was faking that information. That means that merely knowing how the system works is enough.

He probably didn't expect to be betrayed (if you will) by the Federation like he was.

Probably didn't. However, the whole reason his rampage through Cardassian ships flew at all was, as they stated in the episode, the Federation could track and read Cardassian transponder codes and the Cardassians couldn't do the same to the Federation. Hence, the Phoenix could hunt and destroy their ships and bases with impunity.

However, when a Federation ship shows up and all of a sudden Cardassian warships are able to track them, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that they've been made or how. At that point, if it were possible for Maxwell to simply change to a new code or turn off the transponder, he surely would have.

Further, here's the dialogue:

PICARD: Very well... prepare to relay the transponder code of the Phoenix to the Cardassian warship.

WORF: Sir -- ?

PICARD: And then send a message to Captain Maxwell... advise him that we have relayed his location to the Cardassians.

RIKER: Begging your pardon, Captain ... the transponder code will allow them to track all our ships.

Note Worf asking the order to repeated and Riker's complaint. Giving the Cardassians the specific code of the Phoenix would allow them to do the same to every other Federation ship. That would indicate that this isn't a one time thing for the Cardassians, but would give them sufficent information to adapt it for general use. Not just giving them a specific code, but the ability to read Federation transponders in general.

In other words, pretty damn sensitive military information and not something that will be fixed by the system updating. This jive well with what Ro did in Preemptive Strike, merely knowing how the code is supposed to work lets you break the system. Also note that Picard gave the Cardassians the prefix codes to let them remote access the Phoenix and turn off their shield as well in this episode.

I suppose you'll tell me how giving away sensitive military information DIRECTLY to a hostile enemy is a good idea now.

[Rommel123]

Regarding transponder codes... it is probably quite possible to change them, maybe not on short order, but... Picard isn't a fool, he knew Cardassians aren't trustworthy and pointed it out at end of episode. So he probably wouldn't give them something that can provide them with long-term advantage - plus, Federation was already able to read Cardassian transponder codes, so giving them to Cardassians only evened playing field a bit. Plus, it was made clear that Cardassians would never try to engage Federation in determined war - in DS9, Klingons managed to obliterate Cardassian military with "only" a third of their forces, and from what I remember, Klingons only stopped invasion due to war with Federation, and were not pushed back out of Cardassian territory until Dominion intervened. As for Klingon - Federation war, Klingons were previously ally of Federation and had element of surprise, with most Starfleetfleet (at that time) being located alongside Cardassian and Romulan border - Martok Changeling predicted that Federation will eventually win the war, despite Starfleet being caught off-guard and despite previous heavy losses in Borg invasions - which could amount up to few hundred capital ships. Only times we do see Cardassians trying to "acquire" Federation territory is in TNG, and that only throught trickery, and hoping that Federation will not go to war over single system.

And transponder codes didn't help Cardassians track Federation ships - Dominion sensors allowed them to, and if you watched enough Star Trek, you would know that it is possible to determine origin of ship (Federation, Romulan, etc.) by simply comparing their warp signatures (probably has something to do with warp cores and not actual usage of warp drive).

EDIT: Fixed slightly confusing statement.

[Eternal_Freedom]

As an extra bit of info, just because I have it to hand, Kirk and Spock state that Khan may have changed the Reliant's prefix code.

Logically, that means you can do it from aboard ship, presumably with Captain's access codes which Khan had from brainfucking Captain Tyrell.

[Gil Hamilton]

It actually makes sense if the codes transmitted aren't the real code - the algorithm is. Suppose it changes frequently, but the changes aren't shared with everyone. How would someone know the new code? If they know the algorithm, they can just generate the new one.

It's not enough. You need an encryption key to map a code into something meaningful, because the key determines the output of the algorithm. So knowing the algorithm is explicitly not enough, UNLESS the system is really poorly designed. Not even the person who designed the system can decrypt something without a key except by brute force, which in many schemes requires vast amounts of computing power and the life time of the universe.

That Ensign Ro can exploit the system by merely knowing the generating algorithm means the system is really poorly designed.

Picard saved Cardassian lives and prevented war.

I suppose you'll tell me what negative consequences can be attributed to Picard giving Macet those codes.

Because he gave sensitive military information about the technical workings of their fleet to a hostile foriegn power. In real life, they EXECUTE people for that. Thanks to Picard, the Cardassians could track Federation starships and also hack the Phoenix' computer, which in the event of a conflict removes a SIGNIFICANT advantage of Starfleet over the Cardassian navy.

It is one thing for Picard to intercede and stop the Phoenix from blowing up Cardassian shipping. It's another thing entirely to sell out your military to do so. And remember, the Cardassians went to war with the Federation again eventually anyway (hence my original comment in this thread)! There were numerous times in TNG where the Cardassians looked like they were going to launch an attack regardless. These are not people you give technical information on your military apparatus to! Picard basically committed espionage for the Cardassians benefit there. The Cardassians went to war better equipped to fight the Federation thanks to Picard.

And suppose the Cardassians didn't try to just blow up the Phoenix but used the sensitive information Picard handed them to capture the Phoenix instead. Even if you ignore that the Cardassians would have full access to Federation military hardware, you know damn well what the Cardassians do when they capture something. Remember the pilot of DS9, how Kira and O'Brien both dropped a load in their pants at the notion of Gul Dukat re-occupying the station based on their previous experience with Cardassian occupations? They are a bunch of raping, murdering thugs and Picard would have been responsible had that happened to the crew of the Phoenix, in addition to the damage that would have been caused to his nation by giving the Cardassians direct access Federation military hardware and secrets.

So yeah, Picard was absolutely 100% wrong there. Now you should concede the point and back off.

[Gil Hamilton]

Were that true, buddy, you'd be addressing my post with an argument than crying like a whiny bitch. Are you done, or do you want to blubber some more rather than making a point?

[Stofsk]

This argument is stupid. Picard was ordered by an Admiral to stop Maxwell at any cost*. And it's not like Picard was tripping over himself to hand Macet the prefix codes. He did so very reluctantly, and after he had repeatedly hailed the Phoenix when it was bearing down on a Cardassian supply ship. The Phoenix ignored him completely. As it stands, the Cardassian supply ship and a defending warship were still killed by Maxwell. That's an act of war which Picard was ordered to prevent at any cost. Frankly it's a fucking miracle that the Cardassians didn't just resume the war, and they may very well not have due to Picard's willingness to cooperate with Macet.

* EDIT Also the Admiral told Picard the Federation wasn't in a position to resume hostilities, so not only was Picard given his orders he was also told what the stakes were.

[Skylon]

To bring this back on track a bit, when I suggested that by the time of the Dominion War Maxwell may see himself as vindicated for his actions, I was referring to specifically the Cardassians re-arming, and how the Federation couldn't trust them.

I wasn't expecting a fucking argument about Federation Computer security. As Stofsk points out, Picard was within the bounds of his orders. And indeed, there is nothing to suggest the Cardassians gained any great tactical advantage from the data Picard shared in "The Wounded".

[Gil Hamilton]

Dude, the rest of your argument is transparently bullshit. You're in no position to be an arrogant ass.

I can't believe I have to explain this.

The swan song of someone who doesn't have an argument, but doesn't want to admit he's wrong. If the argument was so transparent, you could easily outargue it. Instead, you are flinging shit like a rhesus monkey. I'm starting to think you are trolling this thread, in fact.

This is called "begging the question".

You don't know what "begging the question" means, do you? Review Logic 101 and come back. 0/1

The password analogy addresses this.

In other words, you have no argument and are too much of a pussy to just admit it. Further, look up what "analogy" means, and it doesn't mean cry like a bitch. 0/2

There's no evidence whatsoever for this.

Before the incident, the Cardassians had no means whatsoever of tracking Federation, hence why the Phoenix was so dangerous. After the incident, Picard gave them the ability to track Federation fleet movements. If you can't see why this removes a signficant advantage of the Federation in a conflict, even if it only allowed the Cardassians to map the CURRENT positions and movements of the Federation along their border, you are too stupid to breathe. Now you provide evidence that this was ever repaired or shut up. 0/3

The Enterprise wasn't far behind. There'd be no hiding that action - it wouldn't end well.

No, it wouldn't... for the crew of the Phoenix. The Federation was nearby when the Cardassians were looking like they were going to retake DS9 too (the point was to stall them long enough for the Enterprise to get back), but even letting the Cardassians aboard for even a short time would have been disasterous for the inhabitants. That's the fate that would have befell the crew of the Phoenix and it would have been Picard's fault. Incidentally, in threads past, people have heaped all the blame on Maxwell and his command staff. What do you tell all the people the Cardassians would have raped, beaten, and murdered before the Enterprise could get there? 0/4

This argument is stupid. Picard was ordered by an Admiral to stop Maxwell at any cost*. And it's not like Picard was tripping over himself to hand Macet the prefix codes. He did so very reluctantly, and after he had repeatedly hailed the Phoenix when it was bearing down on a Cardassian supply ship. The Phoenix ignored him completely. As it stands, the Cardassian supply ship and a defending warship were still killed by Maxwell. That's an act of war which Picard was ordered to prevent at any cost. Frankly it's a fucking miracle that the Cardassians didn't just resume the war, and they may very well not have due to Picard's willingness to cooperate with Macet.

* EDIT Also the Admiral told Picard the Federation wasn't in a position to resume hostilities, so not only was Picard given his orders he was also told what the stakes were.

"At all costs" tends not to mean that you can freely give away state military secrets without approval. That just puts the bad guys in a better position when hostilities break out anyway. Here, "at all costs" likely means "even if you have to blow up the Phoenix", not "give the Cardassians the ability to track our entire fleet so that if war happens anyway, now the Cardassians can track our ships". Betrayal of military secrets to an explicitly hostile foriegn power is something they can and have executed people for, doubly since the whole reason the Phoenix crew mutinied was that they felt there was compelling evidence (which Picard admits in the end was correct) that the Cardassians were playing fast and loose with their end of the cease fire.

[Crazedwraith]

I seem to recall that at the beginning of the Dominion War the Federation were at a disadvantage. Their fleets got tracked down and smashed and the Dominion always seemed to know where everything was...

Because they had a honking great sensor array.

[Stofsk]

"At all costs" tends not to mean that you can freely give away state military secrets without approval.

'At any cost' means 'at any cost'. Not 'At any cost except for this or that', or 'You can do everything EXCEPT all the things I forgot to tell you you couldn't do.' This is so unbelievably stupid I don't see how you're still arguing this.

PS Admiral guy orders Picard to stop Maxwell 'at any cost' and you still claim he's acting without approval. This is patently false. Everything Picard does is covered by the orders he received at the start of the episode. Considering a week later in the next episode he's still Captain of the Enterprise and not in sing-sing on trial for treason also validates my and Adam's and everyone-who-isn't-you's position.

That just puts the bad guys in a better position when hostilities break out anyway. Here, "at all costs" likely means "even if you have to blow up the Phoenix", not "give the Cardassians the ability to track our entire fleet so that if war happens anyway, now the Cardassians can track our ships".

So 'at any cost' to you translates into 'well everything except for one or two'.

PS Picard considers conflict evitable. That's why he was willing to do what he did.

Betrayal of military secrets to an explicitly hostile foriegn power is something they can and have executed people for,

What? Are you talking about the Federation? Since they have no death penalty for anything in Picard's time, that's completely wrong.

doubly since the whole reason the Phoenix crew mutinied was that they felt there was compelling evidence (which Picard admits in the end was correct) that the Cardassians were playing fast and loose with their end of the cease fire.

Picard was fucking ordered to uphold the treaty and the peace at any cost. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. Also he had no idea how right or wrong Maxwell was at the time because the cunt failed to respond to his direct and repeated hails, which forced Picard's hand. As it stands Maxwell gave the Cardassians all the reason they could to go to war but the latter declined the invitation, ironically probably due to Maxwell having uncovered their shenanigans. As Picard tacitly warns Macet, there would be no going back had he investigated Maxwell's claims. But peace is better than war as far as he was concerned. The point is he knew, and he wanted to let the Cardassians know he knew, so as to stop them doing any more sneaky shit.