StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I was thinking could self replicating mines in DS9 have got the raw material they need Bajor wormhole to self replicating by beaming them in with help transporter?

Where's the supply station for that and exactly how many transporters does it contain?

I think each self-replicating mine transporter of it own and Bajor wornhole might alreadly have raw material in it.

Actually, mines don't need supply station; from what I remember about episode, they are capable of creating raw matter basically from nothing, althought that still leaves power supply problem, since you can't create matter without using a lot of energy. Regardless, we know that material from several mines is needed to replace one lost mine. But it is possible that mines somehow use wormhole as energy source.

The non-canon DS9 technical manual said that the mines could replenish their energy by drawing from zero-point energy, though this wasn't something they could do very rapidly.

Ah, seems I mixed things up a bit. But that is certainly most plausible explanation I can think of.

Have we ever seen any indication anywhere else in Trek that indicates an ability to generate useful amounts of power from a zero-point energy source? I don't doubt that they gave this explanation, but I'm curious if there's ever been mention or acknowledgment of this capability elsewhere.

Actually, I think that Eframepilot got it wrong. Mines are able to create raw materials by using zero-point energy; whether they use it as energy source too is unknown. It might be possible that mines use wormhole as energy source, or maybe every mine has on-board fusion/fission reactor, or combination of two.

The whole "energy from matter" has been discussed before many times, and the logical/consistency problems therein. If it does exist, it has alot of drawbacks that prevent it from being used in many cases where it would be useful (eg, it complements, rather than totally replaces, the need for raw material.) Even the DS9 tech manual describing the mines tapping ZPE describes it as a rather slow process (makes sense, since IIRC ZPE is not exactly a very.. "energetic" domain.)

I would actually venture the guess that the mines are designed to cannibalize debris from damaged/destroyed starships, destroyed mines, etc. in order to replicate new mines. They might pull on ZPE (if we take that as valid, aren't the TM's non canon?) to replicate stuff that might not be available from stock or cannot easily be produced (such as fuel for the warheads.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:(if we take that as valid, aren't the TM's non canon?)

The short answer is 'who cares', the long answer is 'If we don't consider it valid, the answer is literally unknowable, which makes anyone's baseless ass-pulling speculation valid.'

Also, the book was written by Herman Zimmerman, Rick Sternbach and Doug Drexler, all of whom worked on the show. I'll take their word over it.

Fair point, but at the same time the explanations do have to fit with continuity. If they can just arbitrarily create any matter from pure energy then alot of the stuff that supposedly happens in Trek simply wouldn't make sense. (replicator rations and conserving energy on Voyager, for example. They should be able to replicate ANYTHING they need simply from energy. Even fuel. It's not like energy sources wouldn't be present, unless for some reason we assume Voyager lost the technology of solar power ages ago.)

There's also various cases from tNG and such where they couldn't replicate some item or another or had a finite supply of something or had to carry something from one locale to another. Out of universe it's because replicators were treated the same way every other bit of Technology in Trek was, but in universe we're forced to come up with a logical reason for it (at least if we want to analyze it or debate with it.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:Fair point, but at the same time the explanations do have to fit with continuity. If they can just arbitrarily create any matter from pure energy then alot of the stuff that supposedly happens in Trek simply wouldn't make sense. (replicator rations and conserving energy on Voyager, for example. They should be able to replicate ANYTHING they need simply from energy. Even fuel. It's not like energy sources wouldn't be present, unless for some reason we assume Voyager lost the technology of solar power ages ago.)

Solar power is pretty low intensity though. Converting energy to matter still has to follow e=mc^2, which means you need 9e16J to make one kg of anything. That's an awful amount of solar radiation you need to collect.

Well the idea I guess is that the mines could utilise ZPE to replenish themselves but to do so would take a long time, so it doesn't seem like a very efficient process. As far as Voyager is concerned, there are two thoughts that spring to mind: the idea for self-replicating mines was depicted in the episode as a moment of genius for Rom, an elegant solution that wasn't immediately apparent to the two starfleet experts who were hashing out the plan (O'Brien and Dax, one an ops/engineering specialist, the other a scientist); this is relevant in the sense that the technology may well be so recent that the full implications of its use are not widely known.

The other thought is that DS9, being a strategically vital starbase, would have access to top-shelf gear, which for example USS Voyager would not have as it disappeared years ago (around 3 years at least at the time of 'A Call to Arms') and it was only supposed to go on a short-term mission into the badlands anyway. So even if such technology did exist at the time, it may not have had any onboard. For example, the quantum torpedo makes use of ZPE as well, according to the tech manual, but in a particularly destructive and different way, yet Voyager didn't have any as part of its arsenal.

Also they seemed to leave behind the whole 'gosh we better conserve energy on this ship' plot line pretty early into Voyager.

Batman wrote: Solar power is pretty low intensity though. Converting energy to matter still has to follow e=mc^2, which means you need 9e16J to make one kg of anything. That's an awful amount of solar radiation you need to collect.

Depends on the methods used to collect the energy and how big an area you are collecting it over and how close you get to the star. By modern technology it probably would be hideously ineffective or inefficient, but I don't see it as being impossible for them to have sme means to tap solar power on a large scale (after all they have to produce antimatter somehow.)

Hell if you could create matter from pure energy, that begs the question of why you can't do the opposite (turn any matter into energy?) They wouldn't have to muck around with antimatter at all. Same goes for ZPE really (especially since Quantum torpedoes suppsoedly tapped ZPe for their power.)

Stofsk wrote:Well the idea I guess is that the mines could utilise ZPE to replenish themselves but to do so would take a long time, so it doesn't seem like a very efficient process. As far as Voyager is concerned, there are two thoughts that spring to mind: the idea for self-replicating mines was depicted in the episode as a moment of genius for Rom, an elegant solution that wasn't immediately apparent to the two starfleet experts who were hashing out the plan (O'Brien and Dax, one an ops/engineering specialist, the other a scientist); this is relevant in the sense that the technology may well be so recent that the full implications of its use are not widely known.

The other thought is that DS9, being a strategically vital starbase, would have access to top-shelf gear, which for example USS Voyager would not have as it disappeared years ago (around 3 years at least at the time of 'A Call to Arms') and it was only supposed to go on a short-term mission into the badlands anyway. So even if such technology did exist at the time, it may not have had any onboard. For example, the quantum torpedo makes use of ZPE as well, according to the tech manual, but in a particularly destructive and different way, yet Voyager didn't have any as part of its arsenal.

I vaguely recall hearing that the mines were a combination of Cardassian and Federation tech, and not particularily high end stuff at that (I dont remember any indication that DS9, whilst vital was ever considered top of the line. I do remember that at least early in the series, the opposite was true. I know they upgraded the defenses during the Dominion war, but whether they did anything else I cannot recall.)

In any event, even if DS9 did get top of the line stuff, why would Voyager be excluded? As I recall the ship class Voyager belonged to had all sorts of new, innovative, top of the line stuff (those variable nacelles, the bio-neural gel packets, etc.) so why would they be excluded a neat new fancy replicator technology, especially something that would bolster its ability to operate away from base for long periods of time? The poitn about QTs is a good one, but I also remember Voyager getting newer models of photorp. Perhaps the new torpeodes has enough of a yield advantage to not require QTs be deployed. (Or they may have some political or other reason for not deploying powerful weapons on Voyager. It's role isn't exactly military, but that same reason would not neccesarily preclude the inclusion of replicator technology.)

Also they seemed to leave behind the whole 'gosh we better conserve energy on this ship' plot line pretty early into Voyager.

Fair enough. Out of universe that works as an explanation, but in universe, we're supposed to be better than that

Connor MacLeod wrote:I vaguely recall hearing that the mines were a combination of Cardassian and Federation tech, and not particularily high end stuff at that (I dont remember any indication that DS9, whilst vital was ever considered top of the line. I do remember that at least early in the series, the opposite was true. I know they upgraded the defenses during the Dominion war, but whether they did anything else I cannot recall.)

At the start of the show DS9 had lots of difficulty in running properly. The Cardassian tech didn't get along well with the Federation tech, and because they couldn't get Cardassian replacements that forced the use of Federation substitutes. However as the show went on this became less and less emphasised. However DS9 became a highly strategic location, so it makes sense that they would focus a lot of their attention there for things like weapon systems and other technologies. The only point I'm making here is that they might have access to high quality gear due it being an important place. The weapon upgrades are one example of this.

In any event, even if DS9 did get top of the line stuff, why would Voyager be excluded? As I recall the ship class Voyager belonged to had all sorts of new, innovative, top of the line stuff (those variable nacelles, the bio-neural gel packets, etc.) so why would they be excluded a neat new fancy replicator technology, especially something that would bolster its ability to operate away from base for long periods of time? The poitn about QTs is a good one, but I also remember Voyager getting newer models of photorp. Perhaps the new torpeodes has enough of a yield advantage to not require QTs be deployed. (Or they may have some political or other reason for not deploying powerful weapons on Voyager. It's role isn't exactly military, but that same reason would not neccesarily preclude the inclusion of replicator technology.)

My favoured rationalistion is this: Voyager was only meant to go on a short-term mission into the badlands to capture Chakotay's ship and recover Tuvok. Although this isn't really apparent in the show, it would make sense that Voyager was only equipped with the gear it needed to fulfill that particular mission objective. It's something that Red picked up on when he wrote his fanfic rewrite of Voyager. I know it's a bit strange of me to reference a fanfic in support of this theory, but there you are. Their mission was never one of long term deep range exploration like Kirk's or Picard's Enterprise. Assuming this technology was available at the time, they simply may not have had it because there was no perceived need for it considering their mission objectives.

Also they seemed to leave behind the whole 'gosh we better conserve energy on this ship' plot line pretty early into Voyager.

Fair enough. Out of universe that works as an explanation, but in universe, we're supposed to be better than that

Eh, this isn't a huge problem for me. There are heaps of inconsistencies between not only each show, but also between episodes of the same show. Sometimes rationalising these inconsistencies leads to greater problems. Voyager in particular is bad for this. The premise of the show was actually good but the execution of it was sorely lacking. On the other hand, considering how battle damage seems to get repaired easily enough to not matter by the next episode, perhaps we are underestimating the power of their replicators for fabricating replacements for damaged equipment. Out of universe it's because they didn't give a shit about keeping the show consistent.

The minefield may actually have worked like utter crap, considering that the Dominion was simply too dumb to just line up all the thousands of ships they supposedly had and blow up all the mines in one go. Seriously.. yeah sure the mines are stealthy but they are tied to blocking a fixed point in space and the perimeter of the field could be deduced by using scows as mine bumpers.

Stofsk wrote:I vaguely recall hearing that the mines were a combination of Cardassian and Federation tech, and not particularily high end stuff at that (I dont remember any indication that DS9, whilst vital was ever considered top of the line. I do remember that at least early in the series, the opposite was true. I know they upgraded the defenses during the Dominion war, but whether they did anything else I cannot recall.)

At the start of the show DS9 had lots of difficulty in running properly. The Cardassian tech didn't get along well with the Federation tech, and because they couldn't get Cardassian replacements that forced the use of Federation substitutes. However as the show went on this became less and less emphasised. However DS9 became a highly strategic location, so it makes sense that they would focus a lot of their attention there for things like weapon systems and other technologies. The only point I'm making here is that they might have access to high quality gear due it being an important place. The weapon upgrades are one example of this.

My favoured rationalistion is this: Voyager was only meant to go on a short-term mission into the badlands to capture Chakotay's ship and recover Tuvok. Although this isn't really apparent in the show, it would make sense that Voyager was only equipped with the gear it needed to fulfill that particular mission objective. It's something that Red picked up on when he wrote his fanfic rewrite of Voyager. I know it's a bit strange of me to reference a fanfic in support of this theory, but there you are. Their mission was never one of long term deep range exploration like Kirk's or Picard's Enterprise. Assuming this technology was available at the time, they simply may not have had it because there was no perceived need for it considering their mission objectives.[/quote]

Ok, makes sense.

Eh, this isn't a huge problem for me. There are heaps of inconsistencies between not only each show, but also between episodes of the same show. Sometimes rationalising these inconsistencies leads to greater problems. Voyager in particular is bad for this. The premise of the show was actually good but the execution of it was sorely lacking. On the other hand, considering how battle damage seems to get repaired easily enough to not matter by the next episode, perhaps we are underestimating the power of their replicators for fabricating replacements for damaged equipment. Out of universe it's because they didn't give a shit about keeping the show consistent.

The main problems I thought stemmed from the writers. When Trek had good writers (even in Voyager episodes), you tend to get rather good episodes (Voyager: The Thaw, the one with the crazy mind clown IIRC). But then again you can get alot of crap episodes too. Voyager's lack of vision can also be attributed directly to the writers (Chakotay's inconsistent romances, Janeway's character and attitudes in general, etc.) We can also see this even in TNG with the way various alien races are handled throughout all the series (The Borg and their decline, the Ferengi and their decline, etc.) I tend to be influenced by many of Chuck's views on the good and bad aspects of Trek in this regard.

Sea Skimmer wrote:The minefield may actually have worked like utter crap, considering that the Dominion was simply too dumb to just line up all the thousands of ships they supposedly had and blow up all the mines in one go. Seriously.. yeah sure the mines are stealthy but they are tied to blocking a fixed point in space and the perimeter of the field could be deduced by using scows as mine bumpers.

Actually I could see them not being able to amass sufficient ships to tackle the minefield due to the war. I mean I dont remember for sure how the Dominion fared territorially for the most part, but it could be that after their connection via the wormhole was severed, they had to conserve their naval assets. Hell, it's quite possible they were over-extended at that point, given how I recall how the situation reversed once the minefield was in place. Heck, wasn't limited military forces one reason they had to seek allies or something? Or used that static sateellite defense.

That said, I don't think they really would need starships to take down the minefield per se, just some means of detonating most or all of them. I'd think they'd be capable of assembling and chucking off huge numbers of proximity mines or torpedoes or something similar. Or what about those remotely powered defense satellite platforms? Another possibility was to just ferry DS9 over to the wormhole and use its upgraded firepower to blast the hell out of the minefield (they've moved the station before, after all.)

The fact they didn't do any of that (or try to gather more ships) suggests they didn't think of it for some reason, or that the minefield was resistant to such methods (although its possible that Sisko had DS9's ability to fight back or move disabled before departing as well.) Perhaps there was logistical reasons as well (the satellites might be in limited numbers, or perhaps they can't free up transport capacity to move it, for example.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:Actually I could see them not being able to amass sufficient ships to tackle the minefield due to the war. I mean I don't remember for sure how the Dominion fared territorially for the most part, but it could be that after their connection via the wormhole was severed, they had to conserve their naval assets. Hell, it's quite possible they were over-extended at that point, given how I recall how the situation reversed once the minefield was in place.

It was implied that the Dominion were going to win even without the wormhole being reopened, but it was going to be a longer and bloodier war, with issues relating to the ability to manufacture Ketracel White (until they took the Kabrel system). I imagine that they thought that if the Federation/Klingons were defeated quickly, then the rest of the Alpha Quadrant would fall into line more readily. In short, they wanted a shock and awe victory.

The loss of the GQ reinforcements forced them to rethink this strategy.

Connor MacLeod wrote: Actually I could see them not being able to amass sufficient ships to tackle the minefield due to the war. I mean I dont remember for sure how the Dominion fared territorially for the most part, but it could be that after their connection via the wormhole was severed, they had to conserve their naval assets. Hell, it's quite possible they were over-extended at that point, given how I recall how the situation reversed once the minefield was in place. Heck, wasn't limited military forces one reason they had to seek allies or something? Or used that static sateellite defense.

If you are over extended and are cut off from reserves, then you abandon gains to counter attack and link up with the reverse force. If that means throwing everything at the wormhole then so be it. Anything else is stupid when they could get thousands of ships through the wormhole that should have easily allowed them recover any lost ground and then some.

The fact they didn't do any of that (or try to gather more ships) suggests they didn't think of it for some reason, or that the minefield was resistant to such methods (although its possible that Sisko had DS9's ability to fight back or move disabled before departing as well.) Perhaps there was logistical reasons as well (the satellites might be in limited numbers, or perhaps they can't free up transport capacity to move it, for example.)

All unlikely compared to stupidity. Its not like the Dominion Civilization was setup to be brilliant thinkers; though the Cardassians have somewhat more sense at least as far as ship design goes, even if they are idiots using slaves to work a mere ore smelter.. in orbit... for whatever reason.

Really logic would say just dumping a bunch of sand yanked off a moon of Bajor into space and then tracking the drift should have already sufficed to find most of the stealth mines. The fact that '20-30' need to swarm a single ship to destroy it is a further suggesting that the whole situation was stupid.

Or mines had interphase device in addition to normal cloak, so several mines would get back into realspace in order to detonate, and Dominion had to disable that device plus disable replication devices in order to destroy minefield.

Rommel123 wrote:Or mines had interphase device in addition to normal cloak, so several mines would get back into realspace in order to detonate, and Dominion had to disable that device plus disable replication devices in order to destroy minefield.

Nice try… but such an explanation would just create even more questions and require even more extensive stupidity as to why the technology isn’t being used for anything else and how on earth such a device could be disabled if it worked. Its also still doesn’t really explain why they didn’t just swarm the minefield with mine bumpers.