How would Yesterday Enterpise UFP done Domimon war

[JasonB]

I know guy think USS Enterprise C not send back UFP over power Klingon Empire. However likely sector 31 known UFP losing war at least decade before USS Enterprise C show up used biological weapon that work slowly infect Klingon body but spread quickly. First might show sign infect by 3 years after Sector 31 unleash biological weapon. In about time USS Enterprise C shows up. Klingon Empire most likely complete infected most show sign the disease major Klingon already dying. By time three months came by the Klingon Empire unable to keep war going. Simple to sick to fight at best thank sector 31.

UFP form the Yesterday Enterprise time-line do against the Dominion war. SO me case ready war and blood then Dominion.

[Batman]

You do know this is an english language language forum, right?

[Darth Tanner]

Even Google translate isn’t that bad usually but anyway...

Your asking if a war devastated Federation that was about to lose a war against the Klingon Empire would win a war against a foe that it took the combined might of the Federation, Klingons, Cardassians and Romulans to defeat. In a word no, it would lose.

I’m not sure what bio weapon nonsense you’re talking about but as Section 31 infected the Dominion with a bio weapon anyway in the real timeline I don’t see how using your alternative war devastated Federation would change things except maybe the Section 31 operatives have been killed off in their operations against Klingons already rendering the case mute.

[Darth Tedious]

Normally I can understand JasonB, but this was a pretty tough one. Thanks for the deciphering, Darth Tanner. And I agree, it's pretty inconceivable that a Federation on the verge of losing to the Klingons could duke it out with the Dominion, regardless of any level of militarisation they might have over the normal version the the UFP.

Note to passing mod: Shouldn't this thread be in PST?

[Enigma]

Guys, check out Jason in asvs.org and you'll see he can be a lot worse. Much worse.

BUT, I also think that this "JasonB" may be an impostor because while the posting style is similar, JasonB's spelling is a lot better than Jason.

So either someone is pretending to be Jason from asvs.org or he's the real deal.(he's also on several other boards under similar names)

Either way, he's not going to last here.

[JasonB]

In practice what I was trying to ask was if the UFP form Yesterday Enterprise timeline won the war Klingon Empire somehow and now faces Dominion. UFP and won against Klingon Empire least four ways Forget biological attack part it only four possible Klingon Empire lost that war. Other three a single Caption is able change tide war, another alien race join war on UFP side or forth possible I not going go into I do not want get ban. However that important part the question is what happen UFP won war Klingon Empire and now face Dominion. Yes did make mistake on put it into Science fiction part forgive me.

[Darth Tanner]

I see. Essentially a Federation that won an all out war against the Klingons vs the Dominion situation.
The main problem I see is that the Federation is not going to be willing to conquer and occupy Klingon space like it was an empire itself so the end result would depend on the eventual peace treaty. The Federation can’t simply consume the Klingons forcefully into the federation and is likely unwilling to use them as slaves/protectorates so actual benefits to the federation are going to be minor in terms of resources/industry. If the end result of the Cardassian war is anything to go by the Federation is not going to be making any real material gains.

Furthermore however any benefits to the Federation are more than undone by the fact that the Klingons are not going to be able to offer aid against the Dominion (if they are willing to do so at all after losing a war to them) so a insignificantly stronger Federation would have to take the Dominion on solo and with much of its own industry/population devastated by a prior war with an equal power.

What is actually quite interesting in that if the Federation knocks out much of the Klingons strength now then there will likely be no Klingon invasion of the Cardassian Union prior to the actual Dominion war so the Dominion would not be able to get a foothold on the other side of the wormhole from their puppet state, the Cardassians being unlikely to give up their sovereignty for Dominion membership if the Klingons had not stomped them into the dirt earlier. The Dominion would then have to launch a direct assault on DS9 and whatever fleet assets are deployed there which would likely be a much more risky venture so the war might not even happen in the first place.

Ultimately the Federation is still screwed though it loses its allies and gains a bit of Klingon territory of no benefit to itself.

[JasonB]

I see. Essentially a Federation that won an all out war against the Klingons vs the Dominion situation.
The main problem I see is that the Federation is not going to be willing to conquer and occupy Klingon space like it was an empire itself so the end result would depend on the eventual peace treaty. The Federation can’t simply consume the Klingons forcefully into the federation and is likely unwilling to use them as slaves/protectorates so actual benefits to the federation are going to be minor in terms of resources/industry. If the end result of the Cardassian war is anything to go by the Federation is not going to be making any real material gains.

Furthermore however any benefits to the Federation are more than undone by the fact that the Klingons are not going to be able to offer aid against the Dominion (if they are willing to do so at all after losing a war to them) so a insignificantly stronger Federation would have to take the Dominion on solo and with much of its own industry/population devastated by a prior war with an equal power.

What is actually quite interesting in that if the Federation knocks out much of the Klingons strength now then there will likely be no Klingon invasion of the Cardassian Union prior to the actual Dominion war so the Dominion would not be able to get a foothold on the other side of the wormhole from their puppet state, the Cardassians being unlikely to give up their sovereignty for Dominion membership if the Klingons had not stomped them into the dirt earlier. The Dominion would then have to launch a direct assault on DS9 and whatever fleet assets are deployed there which would likely be a much more risky venture so the war might not even happen in the first place.

Ultimately the Federation is still screwed though it loses its allies and gains a bit of Klingon territory of no benefit to itself.

I do not believe Dominion would able overpower DS9 if upgrade with weapon system starbase during Yesterday Enterpise time period . Since fact USS enterprise D in Yesterday Enterprise phaser beam at least as powerful DS9 phaser bank during Dominion war. DS9 have phaser bank many time more powerful. This not in could other UFP starship might be there to stop them. It very possible Wormhole itself might turn choke point .

[Batman]

You can, no doubt, provide some numbers? Not that I see why DS9 would have access to YE timeline technology, but your evidence for DS9 phasers being massively more powerful than E-Ds (standard or YE) is?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Is there not also the possibility that if the UFP and Klingons are going at it full-bore, the Cardassians might never leave Bajor, and even if they do the UFP may not occupy DS9 or discover the wormhole. If the wormhole is not discovered, the Dominion remain in the Gamma Quadrant and there is no dominion war.

[Havok]

I'm curious if he is confusing Yestreday's Enterprise and All Good Things... and getting them mashed together? Maybe thinking that the AGT Ent D refit is the ship in question with it's phaser 'that at least as powerful DS9 phaser bank', when IIRC YE tech wasn't that much further along than standard Fed tech.. Just beefed up more for constant combat.

[Batman]

If he is thinking AGT then yes, that spinal phaser mount was more impressive than anything the Big E (standard or YE) did before. Again, that raises the question of why would ordinary timeline DS9 have it, and why would their version of it be more impressive.
YE E-D did nothing we haven't seen it do it in the presumably master timeline before.

[Havok]

I also think he is asking how the battle hardened Federation and Starfleet or Yesterday's Enterprise, if at full strength and with the slight advancement that that much war research would surely bring, would do against the Dominion.

I think the biological weapon angle was him trying to eliminate the Klingons in a timely manner that would allow Starfleet to be able to recover and be at said full strength for when the Dominion eventually get discovered.

[Enigma]

But wouldn't the Federation be worse off in the number of ships available compared to main line Federation? We're talking about the Federation in which Picard says is six months from surrendering to the Klingons. If that is true, then the Feds in YE would have most of its fleets decimated and be even more vulnerable to the Dominion than the main line Federation.

Every shipyards\drydocks\production facilities would have to be running 24\7\365 for many years to repair damaged ships and build new ones to replace those destroyed.

How much of their fleet would have to be destroyed in order for UFP to consider a formal surrender to the Klingon Empire? If the UFP had ~3000 starships, would the loss of two thirds be enough? If so, let's say that the virus took effect and the Klingon Empire collapsed. Now, the UFP has lost ~2000 starships and most likely those left would be in various states of damage. How many shipyards\drydocks\production facilities does the UFP have and how many new ships can they build or repair damaged ships?

Looking at the timeline, Memory Alpha states that YE took place around 2366, (main time line)the Federation-Dominion Cold War 2370 to 2373 and the Dominion War started around 2373. This means that the UFP has 4 years to return to it's pre-Klingon War numbers. Considering the rate at which the UFP builds their ships and the amount of time spent repairing damaged ships, they will be caught with their pants around their ankles when the Dominion make their appearance. They'll soon definitely know that the Alpha Quadrant is quite vulnerable and skip the Cold War and go right to asking the UFP to bend over before they get the chance to pull their pants up.

YE's UFP will go down in flames.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You can, no doubt, provide some numbers? Not that I see why DS9 would have access to YE timeline technology, but your evidence for DS9 phasers being massively more powerful than E-Ds (standard or YE) is?

I think he's thinking about how the E-D destroyed that K'vort cruiser with a phaser blast. I think he is also forgetting that that cruiser took five photon torpedos and phaser blasts before its shields collapsed.

In WOTW DS9 was destroying B'rel BOP with single phaser hits, but not K'vorts which weren't even in the battle. However, the Vorchas weren't doing that much better against DS9s weapons.

In the end I don't see how you can compare the two examples. Too many different variables.

[Skylon]

I think he's thinking about how the E-D destroyed that K'vort cruiser with a phaser blast. I think he is also forgetting that that cruiser took five photon torpedos and phaser blasts before its shields collapsed.

I don't recall any evidence that the BOP destroyed by a phaser blast was the same that took five torpedoes (and survived). There were three flying around.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I think he's thinking about how the E-D destroyed that K'vort cruiser with a phaser blast. I think he is also forgetting that that cruiser took five photon torpedos and phaser blasts before its shields collapsed.

I don't recall any evidence that the BOP destroyed by a phaser blast was the same that took five torpedoes (and survived). There were three flying around.

Seems logical to me. The BoP that took the torpedo hits suffered moderate damage to its forward shields from those torps. The BoP that was destroyed took a phaser blast to its forward shields and those shields collapsed.

[JasonB]

But wouldn't the Federation be worse off in the number of ships available compared to main line Federation? We're talking about the Federation in which Picard says is six months from surrendering to the Klingons. If that is true, then the Feds in YE would have most of its fleets decimated and be even more vulnerable to the Dominion than the main line Federation.

Every shipyards\drydocks\production facilities would have to be running 24\7\365 for many years to repair damaged ships and build new ones to replace those destroyed.

How much of their fleet would have to be destroyed in order for UFP to consider a formal surrender to the Klingon Empire? If the UFP had ~3000 starships, would the loss of two thirds be enough? If so, let's say that the virus took effect and the Klingon Empire collapsed. Now, the UFP has lost ~2000 starships and most likely those left would be in various states of damage. How many shipyards\drydocks\production facilities does the UFP have and how many new ships can they build or repair damaged ships?

Looking at the timeline, Memory Alpha states that YE took place around 2366, (main time line)the Federation-Dominion Cold War 2370 to 2373 and the Dominion War started around 2373. This means that the UFP has 4 years to return to it's pre-Klingon War numbers. Considering the rate at which the UFP builds their ships and the amount of time spent repairing damaged ships, they will be caught with their pants around their ankles when the Dominion make their appearance. They'll soon definitely know that the Alpha Quadrant is quite vulnerable and skip the Cold War and go right to asking the UFP to bend over before they get the chance to pull their pants up.

YE's UFP will go down in flames.

Tash Yar said Klingon Empire destory little more half Starfleet. This would in could starbase, outpost, starships, and colony. With fact Klingon Empire over ran at most 32 light years worth space. I say most Starfleet get destroy were starships. However two important things first UFP not be restricted by number starship they could build accord peace treaty the UFP sign with Klingon Empire. Second important fact is that UFP would be using even starship that has working warp drive and can keep air in for troop transport if not for active battle. So good number starship destroy that would been destroy were most likely old piece junk anyway. If I say it all depend how long UFP thinks they can hold Klingon Empire at bay. IF Starfleet believe six months UFP not have starship need hold Klingon Empire at bay they force surrender.

[Enigma]

The E-D was not a piece of junk. War does not discriminate the quality of ships. It does not prefer to destroy poor starships\soldiers\etc.. over higher quality.

If the Klingons destroyed half of Starfleet's assets including starbases, then the UFP are even worse off than what I've stated in my previous post.

They'll have less resources to replace lost ships and repair the ones that are still space worthy. They'll also be diverting their meager resources to rebuilding lost starbases\drydocks and the like.

They'll need more than 4 years to return to pre-war numbers.

[PREDATOR490]

The Dominion would curbstomp YE's Federation, with or without the pre-existing condition of being curbstomped by the Klingons.

The Federation NEEDED the Romulans AND Klingons to unite to fight back against the Dominion. Even if the YE Feds wiped out the Klingons with no casualties at all. They have THREE empires worth of territory to manage against the Dominion in a post-war environment. I suspect hostile planets will be far more likely to side with the Dominion against the Federation and be open to infiltration by Dominion Agents. There is no indication if the UFP's fleet was anywhere near the size equivelent to Three empires and the Dominion were repeatedly shown to be capable of building ships at a rate that made all three empires collectively shit bricks.

Failing that, if the Dominion War progresses far enough, the Breen assrape the Feds with their energy dampners and without Klingon ships they will have noone to fall back on while they try to counter them like they did in DS9.

Although the much more likely scenario is the Dominion never even meet the Federation because:

The Federation never encounter the Borg - Unless Q,Who takes place
If that happens, the Federation will get slammed by the Borg unprepared or they have to fight the Klingons AND the Borg.
Since the Borg logically have already appeared as early as Neutral Zone AND got a signal from Enterprise Borg that would reach them at this time.

Either the Federation gets assimilated or the culmination of the Klingons AND random Borg attack will only serve to hammer the UFP further. Nevermind, Sisko is specifically required to be AT that battle and go to DS9.

No Sisko = No wormhole
No wormhole = No Dominion
Alternatively,
No divine intervention = Dominion fleets continue to plow through the wormhole unchallenged.

[JasonB]

The E-D was not a piece of junk. War does not discriminate the quality of ships. It does not prefer to destroy poor starships\soldiers\etc.. over higher quality.

If the Klingons destroyed half of Starfleet's assets including starbases, then the UFP are even worse off than what I've stated in my previous post.

They'll have less resources to replace lost ships and repair the ones that are still space worthy. They'll also be diverting their meager resources to rebuilding lost starbases\drydocks and the like.

They'll need more than 4 years to return to pre-war numbers.

UFP has four fleet worth starships after watch Yesterday Enterprise and look close at the map. Enigma to much restrict peace treaty not matter this case. Even batter UFP many time resource and shipyards then Terren rebel had. The Terran rebel build singe Defiant class starship in some were between year and six months. Our solar system Star Trek universe has at least 14 shipyards all in our Earth solar system at least normal time-line. No cannon evidence Klingon Empire ever reach Earth in Yesterday Enterprise time-line. UFP easily build at least 3 Galaxy class starship year and many smaller class starship and middle size class starships. While impossible give number starship UFP build our solar system alone. May able build hundred starship a year. This across not in could other shipyard might survival this war.

[PREDATOR490]

Sacrifice of Angels - Dominion force 1254 ships which is stated to be 2:1 against the Federation. Then we have 'thousands' more that were coming through the wormhole and wished away by divine intervention.

Even without those reinforcements the Federation and Klingons were getting their ass royally kicked requiring Sisko to trick the Romulans into the war. Even then the Dominion was STILL holding ground against three empires.

How is the YE Feds going to hold up against the Dominion without the Klingons OR Romulans to back them up ?

The Dominion have fanatic shocktroops which can be bred in short order and shipyards that repeatedly make the AQ powers go apeshit because the Dominion are really good at manufacturing. Even if the Federation can manufacture ships in the thousands, they still need to train the crew to fly them properly and in sufficient numbers.
The Galaxy takes crew in the thousands while the Dominion build ships that take less than fifty. All it takes to nuke a Galaxy class is for three of those Dominion ships to harrass and finally ram it.

I.E What happened to the Odessy or the repeated rammings throughout the series from Jem'Hadar fighters.

The Federation wont have the Defiant to fall back on or the ability to ask the Romulans for a cloaking device and without the other empires around the Dominion only have to divert their attention to a single target while the Federation have to protect the ENTIRE AQ.
The only benefit from this situation is the bottleneck created by the wormhole. Destroy the wormhole and everything is fine, fail to do so and the Dominion have ample ability to fallback on their OWN shipyards in the Gamma Quadrant. Logically, those shipyards are going to be churning out ships just as well as the AQ versions were in the original time-line.

YE Federation is completely fucked against the Dominion barring act of plot intervention.

[Enigma]

Sacrifice of Angels - Dominion force 1254 ships which is stated to be 2:1 against the Federation. Then we have 'thousands' more that were coming through the wormhole and wished away by divine intervention.

Even without those reinforcements the Federation and Klingons were getting their ass royally kicked requiring Sisko to trick the Romulans into the war. Even then the Dominion was STILL holding ground against three empires.

How is the YE Feds going to hold up against the Dominion without the Klingons OR Romulans to back them up ?

The Dominion have fanatic shocktroops which can be bred in short order and shipyards that repeatedly make the AQ powers go apeshit because the Dominion are really good at manufacturing. Even if the Federation can manufacture ships in the thousands, they still need to train the crew to fly them properly and in sufficient numbers.
The Galaxy takes crew in the thousands while the Dominion build ships that take less than fifty. All it takes to nuke a Galaxy class is for three of those Dominion ships to harrass and finally ram it.

I.E What happened to the Odessy or the repeated rammings throughout the series from Jem'Hadar fighters.

The Federation wont have the Defiant to fall back on or the ability to ask the Romulans for a cloaking device and without the other empires around the Dominion only have to divert their attention to a single target while the Federation have to protect the ENTIRE AQ.
The only benefit from this situation is the bottleneck created by the wormhole. Destroy the wormhole and everything is fine, fail to do so and the Dominion have ample ability to fallback on their OWN shipyards in the Gamma Quadrant. Logically, those shipyards are going to be churning out ships just as well as the AQ versions were in the original time-line.

YE Federation is completely fucked against the Dominion barring act of plot intervention.

Unfortunately, by the time the YE Feds realize that they need to destroy the wormhole, the Dominion will already have some sort of a foot hold in the AQ. Look how long it took the main timeline UFP before they ended up in a war with them. The normal timeline Dominion were smart not to start an all out war in the AQ and established a foothold with the Cardassian Union. Took them only three years before they were ready to take on the AQ powers and that is with only the assets built in the AQ.

[Enigma]

The E-D was not a piece of junk. War does not discriminate the quality of ships. It does not prefer to destroy poor starships\soldiers\etc.. over higher quality.

If the Klingons destroyed half of Starfleet's assets including starbases, then the UFP are even worse off than what I've stated in my previous post.

They'll have less resources to replace lost ships and repair the ones that are still space worthy. They'll also be diverting their meager resources to rebuilding lost starbases\drydocks and the like.

They'll need more than 4 years to return to pre-war numbers.

UFP has four fleet worth starships after watch Yesterday Enterprise and look close at the map. Enigma to much restrict peace treaty not matter this case. Even batter UFP many time resource and shipyards then Terren rebel had. The Terran rebel build singe Defiant class starship in some were between year and six months. Our solar system Star Trek universe has at least 14 shipyards all in our Earth solar system at least normal time-line. No cannon evidence Klingon Empire ever reach Earth in Yesterday Enterprise time-line. UFP easily build at least 3 Galaxy class starship year and many smaller class starship and middle size class starships. While impossible give number starship UFP build our solar system alone. May able build hundred starship a year. This across not in could other shipyard might survival this war.

Hey fucknut, you yourself said that they'd lose half of Starfleet including starbases. AFAIK, it has been bandied about that the UFP has ~3000 or so starships. Losing half of those would be 1,500, not including ships needing repairs of various degrees. They will not be able to build or repair at the same rate as they were pre-war. Sol system fleetyards\drydocks\etc... do not have the capacity to build ~100 starships a year if it takes them at least 1.5 years to build a single small ship (i.e. Defiant Class). It takes even more for larger ships like the Sovereigns and Galaxy Class.

You lose again.

[Stofsk]

Unfortunately, by the time the YE Feds realize that they need to destroy the wormhole, the Dominion will already have some sort of a foot hold in the AQ. Look how long it took the main timeline UFP before they ended up in a war with them. The normal timeline Dominion were smart not to start an all out war in the AQ and established a foothold with the Cardassian Union.

This is totally untrue. The Federation - or rather, Commander Sisko - always had the 'blow up the wormhole' plan in mind as a last-ditch move to halt the Dominion from attacking the Alpha Quadrant. In 'The Search part two' Sisko does precisely that, knowing the threat the Dominion represents and concerned Starfleet was behaving too accommodatingly to the Dominion. So he takes a Runabout and blows it up with its torpedo complement.

In other words, it doesn't take much to destroy it and in fact a Bajoran terrorist tried to do just that in an early episode of Deep Space Nine, using a Runabout and an explosive device purchased from the Duras sisters. Hell even the Romulans tried blowing it up in 'Visionary', which was averted thanks to O'Brien's extraordinary ability to jump into the future. Anyway, that it turned out that Sisko was experiencing an illusion doesn't address the point: he thought what he was experiencing was completely real, and so behaved in a way that would be consistent with reality. Also the Federation was going to destroy the wormhole in 'In Purgatory's Shadow' using the station. The fact that they had this option ready for the entire time they had contact with the Dominion completely nullifies your argument. The Federation was ready and able to destroy the wormhole if push came to shove, they didn't because no imminent threat presented itself and also the Federation no doubt hoped it could negotiate with the Dominion.

Took them only three years before they were ready to take on the AQ powers and that is with only the assets built in the AQ.

Uh no. First of all, you're completely ignoring the effect several fleets worth of troops, ships, and supplies can do, 100% of which was provided by the Dominion up until Sisko mined the entrance; most of that was part of the early war effort, with the rebuilt fleets and the 'alpha' breed of Jem'hadar coming later. Secondly, there is a lot of implicit as well as explicit evidence that the Dominion was aware of the Federation and the rest of the AQ and had been steadily building up for a confrontation for a lot longer than you're assuming. (the writers flat out said this, but even if you don't take their word for it there's plenty of circumstantial evidence in the show, like Talak'talan in 'The Jem'hadar' who knew about the races of the AQ as well as recent political events like the Maquis situation with the Cardassians - its obvious the Dominion had the AQ under surveillance for some time prior to that episode.)