StarDestroyer.Net BBS

http://youtu.be/jkno62hfPu4
Looks like no one has posted Scorpion yet.

Edit: apparently I don't know how to properly embed a video.

I found this relatively dull - but that's just me. I *did* think the idea that BOBW was a human story as much as it was a borg story was a good point to bring out, and that comparing that to Scorpion had merit. That said, the Harry-Kim sing-along at the end kinda came out of nowhere and didn't do much for me. Especially since this isn't exactly Harry's last-stand or something. My guess is that it was padding since this is a 3-parter; but then why not just make the 3-parter shorter?

Pah, at least not everyone is amused by exactly the same things I am. Hopefully parts 2 and 3 will live up to the TWOK review .

Chuck likes to make fun of "poor dumb Harry", and how shit always happens to him.

I loved the point in the "Author Author" video, I think it was, how in the five years since Voyager was lost (I think the episode was season 5), Harry was still a lowly Ensign... while back home, the Ferengi kid and waiter who served him at Quark's had not only joined Starfleet but had risen to the rank of Lieutenant, making him Harry's superior.

Part 2 is live on his Blip account.
http://sfdebris.blip.tv/

Much talk about the reason that Scorpion works, ie that it is closer to the dynamic that should have been in the relationship between Janeway and Chakotay from the very premise of the show.

Steve wrote:Chuck likes to make fun of "poor dumb Harry", and how shit always happens to him.

I loved the point in the "Author Author" video, I think it was, how in the five years since Voyager was lost (I think the episode was season 5), Harry was still a lowly Ensign... while back home, the Ferengi kid and waiter who served him at Quark's had not only joined Starfleet but had risen to the rank of Lieutenant, making him Harry's superior.

On the plus side, Harry has a shitload of backpay coming up when he finally makes it home.

Oh wait, they don't use money anymore.

Yeah, sucks to be Harry.

I would guess that when Voyager comes back everyone is going to get bumped two ranks in celebration. Harry Kim may become a Lt. Commander as soon as his feet hit the ground, and remember in the alternate future he was a Captain, so we know he has it in him.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I would guess that when Voyager comes back everyone is going to get bumped two ranks in celebration. Harry Kim may become a Lt. Commander as soon as his feet hit the ground, and remember in the alternate future he was a Captain, so we know he has it in him.

I wouldnt count on it personnally.

I would expect all of the Voyager crew to be DEMOTED or kicked out of Starfleet for the numerous amounts of shit they pulled. Janeway should be locked up for violating the Temporal Prime Directive or at the very least kept under VERY close watch.

Ho hum, we have to stick to Federation principles and regulations. *Poof* Seven of Nine dies
All of a sudden, she decides to mess with Klingon politics, steal technology and go back in time... to save Seven of Nine.

Putting her in a position of power when she has been clearly shown to disregard it when she feels like it is a pretty bad idea. Putting her fellow shipmates anywhere else with access to power is equally a bad idea.
I.E Captain Kim letting her get away with it

I see a nice celebration being put on as a sham while they all get spread out into bumfuck nowhere positions. Janeway gets placed as an Admiral to sit behind a desk where she can be watched.


As for Scorpion, I liked these episodes quite a bit. The dynamic is well played between Janeway and Chocolateday. It paints a nice dilema too but the way it is resolved and executed is extremely weak for continuity. All of a sudden Janeway throws whats been established to the winds because its convienient to do so then goes apeshit when SOMEONE disagrees. This disagreement is casually thrown aside at the end of the episode.

Nevermind, this episode had the potential to turn into a decent arc as they went through Borg space trying to weave between two giants going at it. Instead, the situation resolves in two episodes and Voyager gets hurled out of Borg space in the next. Back to standard episode shit from then on with the only development being the addition of a new crew member.

Err-during VOY's time there was no Temporal Prime Directive for her to violate, that's a 29th century thing. There's plenty of other things she should be locked up for, but violating a rule that didn't exist at the time is certainly not one of them.

Batman wrote:Err-during VOY's time there was no Temporal Prime Directive for her to violate, that's a 29th century thing. There's plenty of other things she should be locked up for, but violating a rule that didn't exist at the time is certainly not one of them.

Temporal Prime Directive DOES exist.

Temporal Prime Directive

The Temporal Prime Directive is intended to prevent a time traveler (from the past or future) from interfering in the natural development of a timeline. The TPD was formally created by the 29th Century, and was enforced through an agency of Starfleet called the Temporal Integrity Commission, which monitored and restricted deviations from the natural flow of history.[10] However, several Star Trek: Voyager episodes specifically make references to the temporal prime directive that suggest that it applies in the 24th century.

The directive is regarded as "inviolable," and any star fleet officer responding to a question regarding their prior actions with words to the effect of "I can not reply due to the Temporal Prime Directive," would not normally be subject to censure, as long as some form temporal instability had been sensed, however slight the signs.

Alternatively: Temporal Prime Directive

Thats why Temporal Investigations went snooping on DS9 because the Defiant had went back to TOS Enterprise. Janeway herself even mentions it to Admiral Janeway saying shit about she wont listen because its against the rules.

"Lalalalalalala, Fuck you not listening cause Temporal Prime Directive blah blah"
"Bunch of crew are going to die"
"lalalalalala"
"Seven of Nine is going to die"
"Fuck the Prime Directive"

When it was established is rather unclear but it is an absolute certainty it WAS established before Voyager even entered the DQ.

I'm afraid I'll have to ask for actual quotes on that, because to my knowledge the Temporal Prime Directive was unheard of before it was brought up by that 29th century guy on VOY.

Batman wrote:I'm afraid I'll have to ask for actual quotes on that, because to my knowledge the Temporal Prime Directive was unheard of before it was brought up by that 29th century guy on VOY.

Straight from Endgame:



5:30 - Harry Kim specifically says its a violation of every rule and Starfleet Command would be mighty pissed

Endgame Pt2

0 - 1:00

Captain Janeway even says fuck it.

Captain Janeway: I shouldn't be listening to details about the future.
Admiral Kathryn Janeway: Oh, the almighty Temporal Prime Directive. Take my advice: it's less of a headache if you just ignore it.

Pretty much sums up Janeway.

Ho hum, we must follow the rules.
Rules get in the way, Fuck em !

Something Scorpion also established. Dont make alliances with any races... except now we will make one with the Borg as a means of getting home.

The rules in general was at least hinted to in DS9 with Bashir saying they got taught a "Temporal Displacement Policy" in the Academy
The Temporal investigators say Kirk was responsible for multiple violations.

From DS9 Trials and Tribble-ations

"Be specific, captain – which Enterprise? There have been five."
"Six."
"This was the first Enterprise, Constitution-class."
"His ship."
"James T. Kirk."
"The one and only!"
"Seventeen separate temporal violations – the biggest file on record."
"The man was a menace."

They were there to investigate Sisko's jaunt into the past. Clearly they have rules and Kirk apparantly broke them.
Thus, Starfleet has a department specifically created to investigate this stuff and a policy to go with it in effect prior to Voyager even appearing.
Since Bashir surely left the Academy and arrived at DS9 before Voyager did.

Revisions may have taken place when Voyager left but Endgame makes it rather clear Janeway knew a directive existed. Either they got an update when they established contact with Earth or the policy was in effect before Voyager even touched the DQ.

Why should the crimes against the timeline of an alternate timline future Janeway be blamed on Janeway-Prime? What also takes the wind out of your sails is that no time-traveling starfleet captain was ever penalized for such shenanigans. Where was the Department of Time Travel Investigations when Sisko took up the place of that 21st century civil rights guy in Past Tense? Where were they when O'Brien got replaced by his 7-hour future self? Why didn't they say anything about the events in Children of Time or The Visitor? That tells me that the temporal prime directive is a meek guideline at best and not a solid rule.

Metahive wrote:Why should the crimes against the timeline of an alternate timline future Janeway be blamed on Janeway-Prime? What also takes the wind out of your sails is that no time-traveling starfleet captain was ever penalized for such shenanigans. Where was the Department of Time Travel Investigations when Sisko took up the place of that 21st century civil rights guy in Past Tense? Where were they when O'Brien got replaced by his 7-hour future self? Why didn't they say anything about the events in Children of Time or The Visitor? That tells me that the temporal prime directive is a meek guideline at best and not a solid rule.

Sisko - He didnt choose to interfere in that case and he PRESERVED the timeline
O'Brien - Not his fault
Children of Time - Not their fault
The Vistor - Again, not their fucking fault

Admiral Janeway - Deliberately uses a device to go back in time and alter the history of the galaxy.
Captain Janeway - Says the TPD should be adhered to but says fuck it over Tuvok and Seven of Nine dying

Both Janeways are responsible for violations of this directive and as such should be punished for it. All the incidents your bringing up were accidents.
This is a person that has consistently shown disregard for rules and regulations when it is convienient for her to do so at the sake of everyone else around her.
Really, that is not the kind of person you want left in a position of power where she can potentially pull more reckless shit on a whim.

Wether or not she actually got punished for it is a complete unknown beyond the fact she somehow gets promoted to Admiral. Nice to have the son of an Admiral onboard along with a treasure trove of future tech to buy Starfleet off.

Part 3 Is up;

Your attempts to exculpate the DS9 crew are futile since most of Kirk's time travel shenanigans were forced upon him as well and he was still recorded as a major violator. You also miss the point which was that the Department of Temporal Investigations didn't involve itself most of the time any time travel occured and since no one was ever punished for it doesn't seem to hold much authority anyway.

There's also the fact that Picard of all people was chastised by the admirality for not crippling the Borg when he had the opportunity to do so, so Janeway using the means offered to her to do it is fully in line with Starfleet doctrine. Destabilizing a mortal enemy of the Federation counts more than violating some 29th century directive Starfleet doesn't have the means to enforce anyway due to the absence of reliable temporal manipulation technology.

Metahive wrote: Your attempts to exculpate the DS9 crew are futile since most of Kirk's time travel shenanigans were forced upon him as well and he was still recorded as a major violator.

There is a major fucking difference between being FORCED to do something and CHOOSING to do something willingly. Janeway did the latter TWICE.

Metahive wrote: You also miss the point which was that the Department of Temporal Investigations didn't involve itself most of the time any time travel occured and since no one was ever punished for it doesn't seem to hold much authority anyway.

Sorry, we have no evidence one way or another about their involvement in ANY other incident.
Most of the time these events dont let us see the follow up.
We have evidence of the existence of a Department that investigates Temporal events and they paid DS9 a visit after such an event. During which they say they will file a report and it will get reviewed for actions to be taken. Sisko even says they can file a reprimand against him. Clearly they have SOME authority to dish out punishment.

Metahive wrote: There's also the fact that Picard of all people was chastised by the admirality for not crippling the Borg when he had the opportunity to do so, so Janeway using the means offered to her to do it is fully in line with Starfleet doctrine.

Fuck off.
The Admiral had no intention of crippling the Borg
Captain Janeway didnt take the technology or information with the goal of crippling the Borg either.

She accepted future help with the goal of getting home.
Sure, she decides to cripple the Borg AFTER already breaking the Directive.

Admiral Kirk saved Earth from destruction and still got his ass busted back to captain for what he pulled.

Metahive wrote: Destabilizing a mortal enemy of the Federation counts more than violating some 29th century directive Starfleet doesn't have the means to enforce anyway due to the absence of reliable temporal manipulation technology.

Just because Janeway managed to fuck the Borg does NOT change the fact she willingly chose to defy directives from Starfleet on a purely selfish mission. Something which she has demonstrated repeatedly. By your own comments, Janeway should be held accountable for treason by providing aid to their mortal enemy.


Regardless, the Temporal Prime Directive DOES exist
Regardless, Janeway DID break it

Really dont see what the fucking problem is here.

Do the rules exist: Yes - Mentioned multiple times with a department that investigates it
Did Janeway break them: Yes - by her own admission
Thus she should get punished: Duh

'Blah blah, Starfleet promoted her blah blah'

There is no follow up on what happened so what happened afterward remains completely unknown.
Even if Starfleet decided to look the other way and see the situation as a "Ends justifying the means" - That just makes Starfleet pragmatic. It does not absolve Janeway of taking actions that were clearly against Starfleet regulations. Something which she loves to adhere to when she chooses to.

PREDATOR490 wrote: Admiral Kirk saved Earth from destruction and still got his ass busted back to captain for what he pulled.

I was under the impression that he was being disciplined for events in the preceding film, not the time travel.

Kirk was being rewarded for what he did to save Earth by being reinstated as Captain. Without that, he would likely have faced a court martial for his actions in TSFS.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

PREDATOR490 wrote: Admiral Kirk saved Earth from destruction and still got his ass busted back to captain for what he pulled.

I was under the impression that he was being disciplined for events in the preceding film, not the time travel.

Didnt meant to imply that it was. Merely that his actions dont get ignored.
There is no indication a Temporal Directive exists during this period anyway.

Janeway on the other hand DOES have to adhere to a directive and openly defies it.

Even if Janeway's actions come out being an overall win for the Federation. It seems mighty silly to let her get away without some recognition of her violations here. Least of all because it establishes a horrible precedent this kind of behaviour is acceptable.

Wait, are you saying current Janeway should be punished for Future Janeway going back in time and messing with things? That really doesn't seem fair at all. In fact, it is literally punishing someone for a crime they haven't actually committed yet (and, with the future changed, never will; there's some nice temporal mind-fuckery for you).

In any case, we know from Nemesis that Janeway gets promoted to Admiral within a few years of returning, at most, so any punishment she may have received couldn't have been particularly severe. Also, I would say that the rest of the crew should receive medals, at least, for surviving 7 years of Janeway's tyranny without becoming psychotic murderers (actually, most of them should probably receive a lot of therapy as well).

I repeat, the Federation has no means of enforcing the Temporal Prime Directive. That would require them to, you know, have an infallible template of "how everything is supposed to happen" available and equipment capable of sensing and recording "violations" of said template. Since there's no such space-time Bible there's also no point to the Temporal Prime Directive, especially when also taking into consideration that ST follows the infinite alternative universes model anyway. There's no "correct course of events".

It's just another stupid and poorly-thought out brainbug inflicted upon the audience by hack writers.

PREDATOR490 wrote:She accepted future help with the goal of getting home.
Sure, she decides to cripple the Borg AFTER already breaking the Directive.

Wrong, getting home "ahead of time" (in quotes since as said above, there's no "correct course of events") is what would have broken that retarded directive and she only did that after destroying the transwarp conduit.

Even if Janeway's actions come out being an overall win for the Federation. It seems mighty silly to let her get away without some recognition of her violations here. Least of all because it establishes a horrible precedent this kind of behaviour is acceptable.

Already happened, Kirk abduting animals and people from the 20th century and Scotty willy-nilly handing over the blueprints for transparent aluminium anyone? Also, Scotty mentions why the Temporal Prime Directive is garbage, who could tell this wasn't how Transparent Aluminium was "invented" in the first place (re:above)?

As long as the results are beneficial to the Federation, Starfleet accepts time travel, all precedents support this, period.

Metahive wrote: I repeat, the Federation has no means of enforcing the Temporal Prime Directive. That would require them to, you know, have an infallible template of "how everything is supposed to happen" available and equipment capable of sensing and recording "violations" of said template. Since there's no such space-time Bible there's also no point to the Temporal Prime Directive, especially when also taking into consideration that ST follows the infinite alternative universes model anyway. There's no "correct course of events".

It's just another stupid and poorly-thought out brainbug inflicted upon the audience by hack writers.

Janeway CHOSE to violate Starfleet regulations. That things seemingly turned out well does fuck all to absolve the fact she made a CHOICE to fuck the entire galaxy for her own ends.
Starfleet Directive says dont do something: Someone CHOSES to break it
The course of events do fuck all to absolve the choice being made.

Additionally, alternate universes model means that recording devices from other universes can contain information on what the history was like BEFORE the change.
I.E Admiral Janeway's shuttle would logically have logs of history that can be cross checked against the alternate universe history
So equipment CAN exist to record violations.

That would kinda be the point of having Investigators coming to question folk about what they did and cross checking it against any information they have.

Investigator: Was your trip back in time a pre-destination paradox, I.E the way things were meant to happen ?
Janeway: No

Unless of course Janeway turns around and becomes a liar to save her own ass. Even if she does, it would be prudent for investigators to cross check information against ship logs and multiple people.

Can they prevent Time Travel: Not yet
Does that prevent them from investigating these events: No
Does that prevent them from punishing people after the fact: No

Metahive wrote:

PREDATOR490 wrote:She accepted future help with the goal of getting home.
Sure, she decides to cripple the Borg AFTER already breaking the Directive.

Wrong, getting home "ahead of time" (in quotes since as said above, there's no "correct course of events") is what would have broken that retarded directive and she only did that after destroying the transwarp conduit.

There IS a correct course of events dumbass.

Investigator: When did Voyager get home in the original timeline ?
Janeway: 22 years in the future
Investigator: How come Voyager just got home 22 years early ?
Janeway: Cause I accepted help from my future self
Investigator: Why did your future self come back in-time ?
Janeway: To get the ship home
Investigator: So, you knowingly accepted help from your future-self with the goal of altering history in direct violation of the TPD
Janeway: Yes

*Court Martial*

Just because things turned out all right does not change the fact Janeway decided to fuck the rules. How many times must this be said ?

The 'correct events' are the ones that happen WITHOUT interference from the future. That would kinda be the purpose of the TPD and from its depiction on screen.
It clearly has some mandate to prevent Starfleet officers from accepting information / technology from the future and altering events from what they 'originally' were.

Admiral Janeway directly chose to go back in time and alter her own 'original' past - Captain Kim specifically says its against all the rules in the book and Starfleet would be pissed if they found out.
Captain Janeway chose to accept help from Admiral Janeway - Captain Janeway continues to bitch and moan she shouldnt be listening to whats "going" to happen but continues to do so anyway.

Again, unless Janeway turns around and lies in her logs and the investigators suck at their jobs. It would be pretty obvious Janeway has demonstrated questionable judgement in this situation. Along with a history of such judgement.

Metahive wrote:

Even if Janeway's actions come out being an overall win for the Federation. It seems mighty silly to let her get away without some recognition of her violations here. Least of all because it establishes a horrible precedent this kind of behaviour is acceptable.

Already happened, Kirk abduting animals and people from the 20th century and Scotty willy-nilly handing over the blueprints for transparent aluminium anyone? Also, Scotty mentions why the Temporal Prime Directive is garbage, who could tell this wasn't how Transparent Aluminium was "invented" in the first place (re:above)?

As long as the results are beneficial to the Federation, Starfleet accepts time travel, all precedents support this, period.

The rule didnt exist in Kirk's time, idiot
It does in Janeway's time and she broke it willingly.

Kirk did it to save the Federation in a situation that was dire
Janeway did it to save two people and everyone else be damned

Unless Janeway and the crew of Voyager become liars, their own logs and testimonies are going to highlight the fact Janeway broke the TPD and the reasons for doing so would be cause for concern in someone who holds authority.

Both of you are missing the point. The Federation has time and time again demonstrated the willingness to ignore rule violations if they turn out good in the end. The entire Federation philosophy seems to be: "Who gives a dam about rules and principals, its the end result that counts."

Purple wrote:Both of you are missing the point. The Federation has time and time again demonstrated the willingness to ignore rule violations if they turn out good in the end. The entire Federation philosophy seems to be: "Who gives a dam about rules and principals, its the end result that counts."

I was well aware of this point, I even mentioned it.
My point however is that even if Starfleet continue to be squeemish Janeway is STILL guilty of a crime and should have been punished for it.

Additionally, a pragmatic Federation would keep an eye on Janeway to make sure she dosent abuse her power like she has clearly done in the past whenever she takes a fancy. If she was just going to save puppies at the sake of her own life - Ok, slap on the wrist

When she is literally messing with politics of foreign races and altering the timeline of the entire galaxy including the Federation to address her own whims - thats someone you should be wary of.

Spock - "Needs of the many outweight the needs of the one"
Janeway - "My needs are the only ones that matter, the universe will obey and fuck anyone who even dares to question me"

I believe Scorpian demonstrated this attitude rather nicely and Endgame does so again.