Internal Defense systems

[aussiemuscle308]

ok, we are on the enterprise D and we are boarded by a bunch of angry aliens. They normally send 3 security officers with rifles to stop them rather than having some kind of internal defense weapons, eg a phaser strip on the roof. If they can discern a single person from orbit, surely they can pick out which lifeforms shouldn't be on the ship and either beam them to the brig or stun them. they could also have a weapon-head that pops out of the roof/floor to deal with intruders.

i know, too quick and easy for tv/movie.

[PREDATOR490]

Starfleet actually DOES have internal defences.

They are seen being put into effect on Earth during DS9 Homefront.
In theory it was placed in every room and orbital facility around Earth as a means of counting the changeling threat.

Unfortunatly there is no way to really discern if they went into full production. Most likely it didnt however the weapon system itself could have done a massive job of increasing security throughout the Federation. A wide arc phaser beam that stuns everything in the room would be insanely useful as a crowd control medium. One presumes they could adjust them to fire directed blasts against specific targets at high settings.

Most likely explanation for why they didnt: Federation got pissy about becoming even more war-like and after the war was done... no need to employ such weapons.

[Jawawithagun]

Must be wonderful to work, sleep and pass down corridors with guns constantly pointed at your head. Lovely atmosphere to inspire the best of work.

[Crazedwraith]

They also have the knock out gas system mentioned in several episodes. Anesthezine.

[paladin]

Doesn't the Federation use some kind of "knock-out" gas for internal defense on starship? I seem to remember it being used in TOS and TNG.

[Eternal_Freedom]

As for having guns everywhere being too easy for a TV show, try Andromeda, they've got automatic weapons mounted everywhere. And this is in a peaceful society that hasn't fought a war for a thousand years, and they seem to get along just fine.

[PREDATOR490]

As for having guns everywhere being too easy for a TV show, try Andromeda, they've got automatic weapons mounted everywhere. And this is in a peaceful society that hasn't fought a war for a thousand years, and they seem to get along just fine.

Andromeda is a warship designed to fight though. Something the Federation lack any desire to build or condone. The best example of a warship by Federation standards is the Defiant. The Defiant really WAS the first and seemingly last warship designed by the Federation to BE a warship.

Unfortunatly, follow up ships like the Promethus quickly stray back to building large ships that are crammed with excessive amounts of shit or gimicks. I.E Multi-Vector Assualt Mode.

That said, Andromeda has automatic LETHAL weapons mounted. Star Trek has the luxury of energy weapons that can perform wide angle stuns, forcefields and knock-out gas.

Combine that and Starfleet has more than demonstrated the capability to employ security methods that would secure their ships. Once again it really comes down to the fact the Federation have lost a great deal of training when it comes to fighting. The combination of the Borg and Dominion conflicts woke them up a bit but neither of those conflicts seems to have been pro-longed or gruesome enough for the Federation to get properly smacked out of their pacifist attitudes.

[Captain Seafort]

Unfortunatly, follow up ships like the Promethus quickly stray back to building large ships that are crammed with excessive amounts of shit or gimicks. I.E Multi-Vector Assualt Mode.

The fact that the execution was shit doesn't change the underlying intention - the Prometheus was designed solely as a warship.

[TOSDOC]

Doesn't the Federation use some kind of "knock-out" gas for internal defense on starship? I seem to remember it being used in TOS and TNG.

TOS "Space Seed". It even worked against Khan's superpeople.

[Sea Skimmer]

Built in defenses would be a bad idea considering how easily Federation computers are hacked or malfunction. That could easily turn into a dead crew.

[Sela]

Ironically, that's what I'd actually *expect* to happen. We'll have an episode where the crack-scientist comes up with a "brand new super-intelligent" way to secure the corridors against attack. But then it starts registering the humans as a threat!!! 8-deaths later, we get a push in on Kirk's horrified expression as McCoy declares "They're dead Jim." And push in for the act-break.

Next we see the power-trio busily discussing the situation. Spock opens by projecting how futile their efforts to stop it are, and how "within 32.21364 minutes there is a 99.28341% chance that everyone will be dead on the ship." McCoy flips out, "Damnit Jim, you can't just let the automated defense system destroy the enterprise! Those are human lifes down there! Damnit Spock - why aren't you crying about ensign Kim who just got lazered to death?"
Then it'll be Kirk's turn to try and talk to the uppity scientist, who will again fail. Scott will promptly declare that the device, "Canna' be shut off cap'n. We could try to <insert-the-technobabble here> but we'll need to draw its fire for it to have a chance at working." Kirk will promptly tell Scott to 'stay on it', and then go find the computer.

He'll attempt to draw fire, getting shot himself in the process - though magically non-lethally. If there was a pretty female scientist introduced earlier on the show who was "fascinated at the crack-scientist's phenomenal work" she'll make out with Kirk in this scene to establish that she's on his side. Kirk will -via her help- find a way to talk to the machine and trick it into killing itself. And we'll wrap up the show with a quip between spock, mccoy, and kirk about humanity, machines, automated defense weaponry, or logic vs emotion before cutting to the credits.

[Baffalo]

Thing about it is, I watch the shows and think, "If someone in that hallway were to fuck up and blow a hole in it, it would blow everyone out into space." And that's what's so damned peculiar about the entire thing. It's a large, open corridor, completely devoid of visible bulkheads. At least in the movies, we saw thick bulkhead doors come down to seal off damaged sections (the engine room in Wrath of Khan, damage on the Excelsior in Undiscovered Country), but by the time TNG rolls around, we see forcefields instead. The biggest issue I have with forcefields is that there doesn't appear to be any visible redundancy. Are they powered by batteries? By separate generators? How will these things get power during an emergency? What will happen if the link to the central computer gets cut? Can the fields operate independently? Will they be able to let repair personnel through without breeching the entire compartment? Are there bulkheads meant to come down in the event the forcefields fail? There are so many questions that we don't have answers to. And to me, that's scary.

When you design a ship that is meant to travel farther than any other to explore the unknown, redundancy matters. You make sure you've got enough spare parts to make the voyage and be relatively safe, you make sure you have enough supplies, and you make sure you're in a ship designed to take some abuse and keep the majority of your crew alive. Especially if this is the greatest achievement in shipbuilding for your civilization. You don't go roaming around in a tin can that falls apart if a space monkey throws feces at it. If your ship gets into combat and the enemy can take the ship relatively intact, guess what? You've just handed them every secret in your playbook. Even if they can't reverse engineer it right away, just KNOWING some of the secrets is enough to make the next attempt even more dangerous for the next ship.

Redundancy is crucial. What would happen if the Enterprise lost her warp core? She'd have to call for a tow. The Enterprise D made sure they could detach the saucer section, but we saw how well THAT worked when Troi couldn't find the accelerator and ended up getting damaged by the warp core breech. Could she have made it safely if she'd been further away from the planet? Maybe, but that's not the issue. The issue is that if you're going to break the ship in half as a goddamned safety feature, make sure the exploding portion doesn't fuck up your lifeboat! I searched Memory Alpha for references to lifeboats or escape pods on the Enterprise D. I'm not shocked to find the results being 0. How is it, that on a ship designed to cart around almost a thousand personnel including families, that there are no lifeboats? I know it was probably a budget thing, but still! How the hell do you do that? Is your only escape route to climb into part of the ship, break it in half, and hold on? If that's the case, you're fucked. Want to climb in a lifeboat instead? Too fuckin bad, there are none!

[/rant]

[Captain Seafort]

I searched Memory Alpha for references to lifeboats or escape pods on the Enterprise D. I'm not shocked to find the results being 0

She's got lifeboats - they're the rows of square hatches around the rim of the saucer. They were never mentioned in the show, but they were in the TM, and the fact that Voyager's lifeboats were behind identical hatches in Year of Hell provides canon backup.

[Baffalo]

I searched Memory Alpha for references to lifeboats or escape pods on the Enterprise D. I'm not shocked to find the results being 0

She's got lifeboats - they're the rows of square hatches around the rim of the saucer. They were never mentioned in the show, but they were in the TM, and the fact that Voyager's lifeboats were behind identical hatches in Year of Hell provides canon backup.

Oh. Well. Still.

>.>

Look over there *runs*

[Connor MacLeod]

Most of their defenses seem to be designed around nonlethal measures, which makes sense. IF anyone got onboard a GCS (for example) there's the potential risk to non-Starfleet crew (Families, children, etc.) and you don't want lethal measures (like automated guns) employed.

Besides, barring some random technobabble I imagine mos tmundane threats can be handled with forcefields, transporters, and control over gravity and life support (including the knockout gas.)

[Rossum]

In "Up the Long Ladder" (the episode where Riker and someone else vaporized some growing clones of themselves because having their DNA used to create life violated their sense of individuality) there were some people who tried cooking over a fire in the cargo bay when a force field enveloped the fire until it ran out of oxygen and was extinguished.

From Memory Alpha:

"My God, Picard, the place is a bloody death trap...lightning bolts falling from the ceiling! Just what the hell was that thing?!"
"Automated fire system. A force field contains the flame until the remaining oxygen has been consumed."
"Ah, wh-wh-what if I'd be under that thing?"
"You would have been standing in the fire."
"Yeah, well, leaving that aside for the moment-what would have happened to me?"
"You would have suffocated and died."
"Ah, sweet mercy."

- Danilo Odell, Worf and Picard


meanwhile during a disaster:

Redshirt: Help! Help! Computer, replicate me some disaster prevention equipment!
*replicating console explodes!*
Redshirt: AHH! Oh god I'm on fire!
Computer: Fire detected! Now initiating Automated Fire System.
*force field envelops redshirt*
Redshirt: Noo! Help! Someone help me! *pats himself until the fire is out*
Computer: ...
Redshirt: Computer... *gasp* turn off Automated Fire... *gasp* System.
*several minutes later to make sure that the Redshirt is dead and not just long enough to extinguish the fire*
Redshirt: ... *blegh* <dies>
Computer: Fire Extinguished.


So... apparently they have a very selective fire control system that can trap people in a confined space until they suffocate from lack of oxygen (which fortunately never activates during those times where parts of the ship explode and catch fire). Granted we never see it actually kill anyone but forcefields to fight fire still sounds pretty stupid and dangerous.

[Baffalo]

Most of their defenses seem to be designed around nonlethal measures, which makes sense. IF anyone got onboard a GCS (for example) there's the potential risk to non-Starfleet crew (Families, children, etc.) and you don't want lethal measures (like automated guns) employed.

Besides, barring some random technobabble I imagine mos tmundane threats can be handled with forcefields, transporters, and control over gravity and life support (including the knockout gas.)

I get it. Really. In the future, we're trying to detain everyone and make sure that, if someone is a threat, we can disarm the threat without loss of life. That's all fine and dandy, because I feel much better knowing that police officers carry tasers and can subdue criminals without shooting them. In normal, civilian life, that's perfectly fine.

However, there's one, tiny detail that I think the producers forgot. The Enterprise is a FUCKING WARSHIP. I understand why they show the non-lethal means, because it's a show for families, but you still need to be willing to back up your countermeasures with a few guys with guns. If a crew of enemy soldiers beamed aboard and started knocking out the countermeasures and carrying gas masks, you need to be able to respond with enough force to take them out. Now, in the TNG era, we saw a nice, happy luxury liner, but in DS9, they definately weren't afraid to shoot the shit out of some people. And I think part of that comes from the fact that DS9 didn't have all the fancy non-lethal measures.

I'm all for non-lethal measures, but I think everyone needs to remember that it's a warship. No matter how pretty the paint and carpet, the families, anything like that, the Enterprise is a ship of war. You don't build a ship with the kind of weapons the Enterprise has, and the kind of defenses it has, without knowing it might go into battle. I wonder what the Enterprise would've been like if we'd had a captain more like Kirk or Sisko aboard. Would the Enterprise have been so philosophical? Would the Borg have ever fucked with Earth had the Sisko been aboard? What if Kirk had been aboard and just punched the Borg back to whatever hole they crawled out of?

[Stofsk]

I'm all for non-lethal measures, but I think everyone needs to remember that it's a warship. No matter how pretty the paint and carpet, the families, anything like that, the Enterprise is a ship of war.

The Enterprise is not a ship of war. At least not in the strictest meaning of the word. It is capable of fighting a war but that is not it's sole mission nor it's primary mission. To suggest otherwise betrays one's limited understanding for the entire premise of the show. The only starship class in Starfleet that qualifies as 'warship' in the most straight forward sense is the USS Defiant. Its primarily geared up for war and survivability, and it does both spectacularly well. The Enterprise - of any incarnation - is designed primarily for exploration, peaceful first contact with new races and diplomacy with established ones, scientific surveys and the like, and also for defence. It's multi-role, and having a non-lethal mindset for their security and defensive measures is noted in many instances in the show.

Hell, you even miss the point Connor was making (that most situations wouldn't call for lethal measures, and if they do, to rely on automatic systems would be fucking reckless), and what other people have already noted. Having internal defences that can fucking murderise you under normal operations (especially when you have klingons who like to get up close and mix it up with people, how is an auto-turret going to pick the klingon out from you?) and also in the event of sabotage or malfunction, is hilariously stupid and outright dangerous. It's fine if you don't fucking care about the people who have to work on your ships and starbases or civilians for that matter, like *coughtheempirecough*, but that doesn't mean putting shit like 'auto-turrets with built-in disintegration technology' is a smart thing.

You don't build a ship with the kind of weapons the Enterprise has, and the kind of defenses it has, without knowing it might go into battle.

This doesn't prove anything. There's a lot of space on a typical Federation vessel which would be superfluous in battle. A warship doesn't waste internal volume on stuff like a dozen science labs, or rec decks or arboretums or holodecks etc.

I wonder what the Enterprise would've been like if we'd had a captain more like Kirk or Sisko aboard. Would the Enterprise have been so philosophical? Would the Borg have ever fucked with Earth had the Sisko been aboard? What if Kirk had been aboard and just punched the Borg back to whatever hole they crawled out of?

HAHAHAHAHA

Yeah ok. Listen, the only reason why Earth was saved was because of fucking Data. Kirk doesn't have an android as a member of his crew, and all jokes aside about torn shirts and him being able to sweet talk computers into blowing up or having logical meltdowns, there is sweet fuck all he could have done in those circumstances. Spock might have been able to mind meld with a borg but he wouldn't have been able to access the 'sleep' program like Data could. And Sisko was fucking there at Wolf 359 and he didn't magic out a solution or go 'Damn the torpedoes!' and blow the Borg up. The Borg were well-prepared and there wasn't a fucking thing anyone could have done, the cube is that much better than anything Starfleet could throw at it. EDIT: In essence, the Borg are the Federation's outside context problem.

As for 'QWho', there isn't anything there that Picard did that was a mistake. From his perspective, he was dealing with a first contact situation against a hostile race unlike any other adversary the Federation had ever encountered. Upon detecting an unknown ship on an intercept course, he asked for details. He asked Data for sensor information and Worf for a tactical appraisal. The latter detected no shields being raised and no weapons being active. Because the Federation's mandate is to peacefully contact new life he opened hailing frequencies, but also when Guinan told him they were the Borg and they weren't very nice, he then decided to raise shields. The Borg then beamed through those shields. They even told Picard that they had analysed the Enterprise's defensive systems and determined it would be unable to withstand their attack. Nobody in Picard's position could have done any better, and frankly I can see Kirk doing the exact same thing as Picard did only he would beam over himself rather than have Riker do so (just in case you forgot how reckless Kirk could be). To say otherwise would be by using meta-knowledge of the series, which is frankly retarded (i.e. we already know what the borg are like so what Picard should have done was to immediately open fire on the Borg cube without warning and to not let up until it was irrevocably destroyed - but there was no way he could have known that as Guinan had no personal experience with the Borg but only what other people had told her, and Q's about as trustworthy as a Ferengi so he had to make decisions on sketchy facts from one side and an unreliable prankster on the other, so if he were to open fire on what appeared to be a non-aggressive ship who was for all he knew coming over to say hello, then I guess we should just forget about Star Trekking and the peaceful exploration of space eh?).

[dworkin]

However, there's one, tiny detail that I think the producers forgot. The Enterprise is a FUCKING WARSHIP. I understand why they show the non-lethal means, because it's a show for families, but you still need to be willing to back up your countermeasures with a few guys with guns.

Huh? Roddenberry didn't envision the Enterprise as a Warship. He envisioned it as more Jaques Cousteu (IN SPACE!). In Roddy's vision the Federation was a uptopia where 'they didn't study war no more' though not quite to the point that humanity in Niven's Man-Kzin wars were. Federation ships still have weapons, non-lethal security systems and security personell. So yes, they did have a few guys with guns.

Star Trek was envisioned as a show about exploration and peaceful contact where diplomacy, not guns carries the day. Not unlike the late 80's where it looked like talking to the Soviets
would result in us all seeing the 90's. Admittedly it didn't quite appeal to a young idiot with more hormones than brains. Just because there was some fighting and hostilities to appeal to the 'Cor lasers, brill!' crowd did not make it the main point of the show anymore than Troi's low cut uniform was.

[Alyeska]

Starfleet is Paramilitary and the Enterprise is used as a Ship of War. But that doesn't make her a proper warship. For better or worse, Starfleet and the Enterprise are something different. These missions might even come into conflict with their duties as protectors of the Federation, but its what Starfleet chose at that time.

[avatarxprime]

Unfortunatly, follow up ships like the Promethus quickly stray back to building large ships that are crammed with excessive amounts of shit or gimicks. I.E Multi-Vector Assualt Mode.

The fact that the execution was shit doesn't change the underlying intention - the Prometheus was designed solely as a warship.

I would also like to point out that the Akira was also designed to be a warship in the anti-Borg role just like the Defiant.

[Connor MacLeod]

I get it. Really. In the future, we're trying to detain everyone and make sure that, if someone is a threat, we can disarm the threat without loss of life. That's all fine and dandy, because I feel much better knowing that police officers carry tasers and can subdue criminals without shooting them. In normal, civilian life, that's perfectly fine.

However, there's one, tiny detail that I think the producers forgot. The Enterprise is a FUCKING WARSHIP. I understand why they show the non-lethal means, because it's a show for families, but you still need to be willing to back up your countermeasures with a few guys with guns. If a crew of enemy soldiers beamed aboard and started knocking out the countermeasures and carrying gas masks, you need to be able to respond with enough force to take them out. Now, in the TNG era, we saw a nice, happy luxury liner, but in DS9, they definately weren't afraid to shoot the shit out of some people. And I think part of that comes from the fact that DS9 didn't have all the fancy non-lethal measures.

I'm all for non-lethal measures, but I think everyone needs to remember that it's a warship. No matter how pretty the paint and carpet, the families, anything like that, the Enterprise is a ship of war. You don't build a ship with the kind of weapons the Enterprise has, and the kind of defenses it has, without knowing it might go into battle. I wonder what the Enterprise would've been like if we'd had a captain more like Kirk or Sisko aboard. Would the Enterprise have been so philosophical? Would the Borg have ever fucked with Earth had the Sisko been aboard? What if Kirk had been aboard and just punched the Borg back to whatever hole they crawled out of?

could you be just a little less "outraged sci fi fan" here? I'm not especially impressed by it nor is anyone else. Yes, the Enterprise is technically a warship. But that is by TNG-era Federation Standards. It's not as if "warship" was some absolute, all-encompassing concept that never changes or variates over type despite changes in doctrine or technology or culture... well you get where I am going.

Basically, you are failing to grasp the context of the situation in which the Federation operated at that point in time, as illustrated by how you referenced Kirk and Sisko - two figures who exist at points in time QUITE DIFFERENT from early, TNG pre-Borg Trek. They thought they'd put their horrible, dangerous, dirty and violent past behind them. They were trying to reach for a better way, and better times and more noble pursuits. This is before stuff like the Borg and the Dominion war, before Q showed them how nasty and dirty the galaxy still was. So yes, by other standards or definitions what I described above may be fucking silly for a warship, but from the Federation POV it makes sense given their purposes, goals and general culture, however foolish it may have been.

Besides, it's not as if the defenses I outlined above could not be modified to be "more lethal" if they needed to be (poison gas, transport in some sort of grenade or bomb, or alter the gravity/air pressure/deprive them of oxygen.)