StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Where was Picard and the big E during the Dominion War? It's something that I don't think is ever gone over in the Trek canon.

There's nothing in canon, but there are couple of EU novels on the subject. They have the E-E fighting on the front lines but getting hammered and being held back during Operation Return by a slightly psycho repair dock manager trying to keep her out of the fray.

Meanwhile, Picard and Ro Laren team up to investigate and destroy a Dominion project to create an artificial wormhole to replace the Bajoran wormhole.

Wasn't there a throw away line in Insurrection that the Enterprise was on Diplomatic missions away from the fighting to bring in allies into the war and keep the peace in quieter sectors?

Stravo wrote:Wasn't there a throw away line in Insurrection that the Enterprise was on Diplomatic missions away from the fighting to bring in allies into the war and keep the peace in quieter sectors?

Yep.

I always thought the Enterprise-E was committed to patrol and diplomatic missions in relatively quiet sectors during the Dominion War. The reasoning would be:

1) A single, fast starship can cover more territory than multiple slower (older) ships like Miranda and Excelsior class ships, but those more numerous slower ships may be more useful in combined fleet actions than a single Sovereign class
2) The flagship is a symbol - Starfleet may have wanted that symbol visible to potential allies and existing systems as a moral booster rather than risking it on the front lines (where attrition seems to have been rather heavy)
3) No mention of the big E in Deep Space 9 (to my knowledge). You'd think if it were involved in operations there would be at least a throw-away line during the series. Hell, the USS Cairo got mentioned once I think.

Fiji_Fury wrote:I always thought the Enterprise-E was committed to patrol and diplomatic missions in relatively quiet sectors during the Dominion War. The reasoning would be:

1) A single, fast starship can cover more territory than multiple slower (older) ships like Miranda and Excelsior class ships, but those more numerous slower ships may be more useful in combined fleet actions than a single Sovereign class
2) The flagship is a symbol - Starfleet may have wanted that symbol visible to potential allies and existing systems as a moral booster rather than risking it on the front lines (where attrition seems to have been rather heavy)
3) No mention of the big E in Deep Space 9 (to my knowledge). You'd think if it were involved in operations there would be at least a throw-away line during the series. Hell, the USS Cairo got mentioned once I think.

I'm honestly quite surprised they didn't yank Picard and put him in command of a fleet or at the very least, as an admiral somewhere. He was responsible for the strategic defense plans used by Starfleet before, so no doubt he'd be off doing something on a more strategic level. I think Insurrection simply brought him back to be in command of the Enterprise because they were afraid to do anything different without having played it out in one of the movies or tv series. Personally, I think Picard was better suited to running a desk and thinking strategically than he was as a captain, though he was a pretty good captain too.

The writers for DS9 were told to steer clear of the Enterprise IIRC. They wanted the Enterprise and TNG crew for the movies.

There were technical reasons as well, IIRC. Apparently the CGI model for the Ent-E had a vastly higher polygon count than the ones of the Defiant and Voyager, meaning that it would have taken a hellacious amount of time to render it. I suppose they could have come up with a lower-res model, but since they wouldn't have been able to do anything meaningful with it (unless the TNG crew made a guest appearance, which Berman didn't want), they were as well just using the ones they already had.

They had some FC ships in the Dominion War - mainly Akiras. So while that does reasonable, it does not sound like an insurmountable a problem. If they wanted a low-res model of the Enterprise-E, they would have gotten it. But like you said, Berman didn't want TNG crew to go back to the small screen, instead focusing it on the big screen (to it's detriment IMO).

DaveJB wrote:There were technical reasons as well, IIRC. Apparently the CGI model for the Ent-E had a vastly higher polygon count than the ones of the Defiant and Voyager, meaning that it would have taken a hellacious amount of time to render it. I suppose they could have come up with a lower-res model, but since they wouldn't have been able to do anything meaningful with it (unless the TNG crew made a guest appearance, which Berman didn't want), they were as well just using the ones they already had.

There was a physical model of the Ent-E utilized for "First Contact", but I think by season 6 and the start of the Dominion War, DS9 went all CGI.

As noted, the main barrier here was Berman.

I would have even been content with a freakin' throw away line about how the Enterprise was off doing...something at one point during the Dominion War. I dunno..."The Enterprise and its battle group are engaged on the far side of Cardassian space...it would take them a week to get here for Operation: Return."

There have been (non-canon) arguments put forth that (the majority of) Starfleet was someplace other than the Cardassian border because the Federation is bordered by hyper aggressive species, and therefore all of these other ships were needed there just to prevent hordes of aliens from flooding across the border in a wave of rapine and plunder.

Or maybe Berman just didn't want Enterprise included in DS9 for the movies... naw, I'm sure there are hordes of aliens on every Federation frontier just waiting to invade, and only the Enterprise can keep them at bay

SancheztheWhaler wrote:There have been (non-canon) arguments put forth that (the majority of) Starfleet was someplace other than the Cardassian border because the Federation is bordered by hyper aggressive species, and therefore all of these other ships were needed there just to prevent hordes of aliens from flooding across the border in a wave of rapine and plunder.

Or maybe Berman just didn't want Enterprise included in DS9 for the movies... naw, I'm sure there are hordes of aliens on every Federation frontier just waiting to invade, and only the Enterprise can keep them at bay

While i doubt it would be "the vast majority", I don't think one can just assume they pulled their whole fleet up from the rest of their territory and moved it to fight the dominion. They still have to patrol/protect their other territory, and at least some of their ships fill dual roles of combat and transport (cargo, personnel, etc.). Logistiics is going to be a BIG factor in their warmaking capabilities in this regard. Even if they (theoretically) have a ton more warships in reserve, that doesnt mean they can support them all at the war front, either. They do have other neighbors and not all of them friendly, nevermind the various random aliens of the weak, space monsters, random catastrophe and whatnot that may be creeping around. The ST galaxy is not exactly a peaceful one, despite Federation views otherwise.

And while it may seem odd that the Enterprise is put on diplomacy missions, there could be lots of reasons for this. One is "drumming up support on the home front" for propoganda and morale reasons. Even in a society with stuff like replicators and "no money", we know the Federation is dependent upon trade and resources and neither is infinite. The Enteprrise and Picard are probably something of icons/heroes (on top of being the flagship of the fleet), so they make good PR material - good to reassure member worlds that the Federation is doing its best, etc. Also, I vaguely recall Picard doing diplomacy on more than one occasion as well.

Stofsk wrote:

Stravo wrote:Wasn't there a throw away line in Insurrection that the Enterprise was on Diplomatic missions away from the fighting to bring in allies into the war and keep the peace in quieter sectors?

Yep.

Don't forget that they were also doing archaeological missions. The timeframe was such that they were concerned about seasons.

I've mentioned before that the Enterprise was engaged doing missions of that sort of as something of a PR move. The Enterprise might be the most famous ship in Starfleet, and as such losing it would hurt morale.

Skylon wrote:

DaveJB wrote:There were technical reasons as well, IIRC. Apparently the CGI model for the Ent-E had a vastly higher polygon count than the ones of the Defiant and Voyager, meaning that it would have taken a hellacious amount of time to render it. I suppose they could have come up with a lower-res model, but since they wouldn't have been able to do anything meaningful with it (unless the TNG crew made a guest appearance, which Berman didn't want), they were as well just using the ones they already had.

There was a physical model of the Ent-E utilized for "First Contact", but I think by season 6 and the start of the Dominion War, DS9 went all CGI.

IIRC, the physical model was used in Insurrection too, but a number of shots were of a CGI Enterprise-E.

By the time of the last film, it was completely CGI.

Gandalf wrote: Don't forget that they were also doing archaeological missions. The timeframe was such that they were concerned about seasons.

I've mentioned before that the Enterprise was engaged doing missions of that sort of as something of a PR move. The Enterprise might be the most famous ship in Starfleet, and as such losing it would hurt morale.

For all we know Starfleet rotates ships from active duties to more passive ones (EG from exploration, defense, wartime, to patrol, diplomacy, "show the flag". etc.) as a sort of down time. spending years on active duty is going to be wearing on anyone, especially if you're far from home, so being "closer to home" probably is needed once in awhile. They can't be exploring the galaxy CONSTANTLY, and even the flagship of the fleet needs time off. such time would probably also be a good time for repairs, refits, and so on.

And if that fails, there's always politics. Nothing says that Federation politics has become any more sensible or enlightened from what we have to deal with today. The Enterprise could have bene held back for stupid, irrationla, and thoroughly political reasons and it would make sense.

I recall there was some graphic novel by Kevin J. Anderson (yes that KJA) about Picard trying to recruit the Gorn sometime during the Dominion War. Never read it so I can't say anymore. That would seem to support the whole idea of using the Enterprise and Picard to try to win over allies for the war, rather than risk them in combat.

Wing Commander MAD wrote:I recall there was some graphic novel by Kevin J. Anderson (yes that KJA) about Picard trying to recruit the Gorn sometime during the Dominion War. Never read it so I can't say anymore. That would seem to support the whole idea of using the Enterprise and Picard to try to win over allies for the war, rather than risk them in combat.

It was The Gorn Crisis.

Novel-wise, the Enterprise also participated in the liberation of Betazed, IIRC.

JME2 wrote:

Wing Commander MAD wrote:I recall there was some graphic novel by Kevin J. Anderson (yes that KJA) about Picard trying to recruit the Gorn sometime during the Dominion War. Never read it so I can't say anymore. That would seem to support the whole idea of using the Enterprise and Picard to try to win over allies for the war, rather than risk them in combat.

It was The Gorn Crisis.

Novel-wise, the Enterprise also participated in the liberation of Betazed, IIRC.

Maybe that's why we don't see Lwaxana Troi in Star Trek: Nemesis. Someone got fed up with her trying to marry off Deanna to a Cardassian or Founder and just offed her.

(I know Majel Barrett was dealing with lukemia at the time so no, I'm not making fun of her. I'm just making fun of the character)

I also forgot to point out: There's no guarantee of a "front line" or a war zone staying strictly in one section or segment of space. we've seen Earth attacked out of the blue before multiple times (The Borg, especially) and there is other stuff like the Founder's homeworld, so holding back ships (like the Enterprise) is not neccesarily keeping it out of the war. It would be holding them back for defensive purposes (at least around key areas). That's one of the plausible reasons for the ships we saw and heard of in DS9 not being the total fleet numbers (although I wouldn't go s far to say as they were a small fraction either. That's far harder to judge.)

Sorry to post in an old thread, but I had a thought here that had to be shared.

My thought is the Sovereign class is the most powerful and advanced ship in the fleet, though nowhere near as fast and maneuverable as a Defiant class. But anyway, even if the Enterprise-E was given the utter bullshit job of handling diplomatic incidents rather than fighting, why did Starfleet not send any other Sovereign class ships into the fray? I know very little about the EU, but they did have some. I know the technical reasons this couldn't happen, as has been discussed here, but the utter illogic of this in-universe makes absolutely no sense considering how BADLY the Federation was losing the war.

The EU is generally non-canon isn't it?

Because the Sovereign class is so powerful, its probably quite expensive. There might not be a lot of them.

Also, they could have been off-screen. For example, as I recall, during the planning to retake Deep Space 9, it was said that a fleet would be defending Earth. I think this point was already raised.

The Romulan Republic wrote:The EU is generally non-canon isn't it?

With remarkably few exceptions, none of it is canon.

Only one Soverign class ship has ever been seen on screen with no indication that others were made. It is not entirely unreasonable to conclude it was a one-off production module made exclusive to carry the Starfleet Banner as the Enterprise.
It becomes fairly obvious the Federation were making all sorts of various classes that show up here and there. However, the classes we see them actually hurling at the Dominion end up being older versions.
You can make up all sorts of explanations for why but nothing on-screen was ever stated why and it will ultimately remain the work of fiction to fill in the gaps.

The Sovy class wasnt THAT impressive or powerful for it's size which would easily justify it being shelved in favour of ships that get more bang for the buck. Even the mighty Defiant got it's ass kicked by an upgraded Excelsior so apparantly the older models CAN be properly refitted to compete with the best of them so rather than waste resources building an entire fleet of shiny Sovies... use the same resources to upgrade the existing fleet and use whats left to build more. This concept has apparantly worked rather well for the Klingon Bird of Prey.

PREDATOR490 wrote:Only one Soverign class ship has ever been seen on screen with no indication that others were made. It is not entirely unreasonable to conclude it was a one-off production module made exclusive to carry the Starfleet Banner as the Enterprise.

What would be the point of that, though? Why would they waste time designing a whole new starship of which they were only going to produce one, when as you yourself point out, they could just stick the upgrades in existing Galaxy-class starships? Plus that wouldn't match up with the timescale of the E-D's destruction and the E-E's commissioning, as it's been established in the tech manual and elsewhere that Starfleet capital ships take 3 to 4 years to be built, and the E-E was commissioned almost exactly a year after the destruction of its predecessor.

Then there's the fact that, well, it wouldn't be called a "Sovereign" class starship if the Enterprise were the only commissioned example. We've seen on countless indications that the first starship of any given design carries the name of its class, so that indicates that there were at least two of them around. It may have been that they weren't able to build any more than the initial two before they found themselves in the middle of a war economy (the Borg attack in FC likely didn't help much either) which left them unable to build more in any practical amount of time. In that case they likely had the Sovereign defending Earth, and the Enterprise as the fleet's "jack of all trades" due to its speed and superior ability to defend itself.

We also saw them just flat out change a ship's name. Its pretty weak reasoning and only results in 1-2 Sovereigns anyway. You could as easily say they were building some (maybe even to replace the Galaxies or whatever nonsense) and when they needed them only one was near completion, finished and renamed Enterprise and the others were cancelled and fed back into the replicators because they weren't worth finishing/would take too long/look better as Steamrunners.