The Federation

[Lord Falcon]

I know I'm probably beating a dead horse by starting a subject that's been talked to death about a dozen or so times, but I'm curious to see what everyone thinks about the Federation, its principles and its methods. So, let's get the conversation started.

From what I've read on Darth Wong's site (primarily his fic, Conquest) he views the Federation as a rigid communist dictatorship that controls its citizens with a tight leash and is either evil or at the very least highly arrogant. I don't think of them in that way... I tend to think of them as a brainwashed and misguided society, truly believing they've found a paradise which is in fact a delusion, and trying to bring it to all in the hopes that they'll like it too. It's a lot like mass hysteria. Also as Wong said, they believe in the superiority of technology and how it is our salvation to all of our society's problems. In many aspects, they're like the Borg, "assimilating" people into their holy paradise so that they can share in its joys as well, while not even realizing that they're doing it (Eddington even called Sisko on this, but of course Sisko didn't even consider the possibility, and naturally he was portrayed as evil or at least extremely misguided).

So, thoughts? I want to find a way to bring attention to the Federation's brainwashing in my fic without deviating from character or being too obvious about it.

[sc_owl]

Until the Dominion war the Federation as a whole had never really been on the brink of destruction. Yes, we had seen instances of individual member worlds being under threat but not the whole of the Federation. Even when the Borg attacked Earth, the Enterprise was able to stop them both times even though fleets of ships had failed to stop the Borg before. It's not surprising that there is some arrogance there as a result.

The history of the Federation until the Dominion war had been expansion, with the occasional conflict which they always won (or at least I'm not aware of a canon instance of war the Feds lost...?)

In a way the Federation reminds me of what we saw of the pre-Minbari war Earth Alliance in Bab 5. It took a huge smackdown from the Minbari to restore some humility to the EA. From what we've seen of the Federation during and after the Dominion war, I would argue we saw a similar effect.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think its an exaggeration to say they are brainwashed. I would say that they became complacent in the early TNG era, as sc_owl noted.

They are certainly not some sort of oppressive communist dictatorship as some are fond of portraying them.

[Darth Tedious]

I'd also say brainwashed is a stretch, but there must be some level of internal bullshit/propaganda. In TNG, there was a lot of harping on about the UFP having rid themselves of war, poverty, disease, all the stuff that made previous eras such a horrible time to live.

But look at Turkana IV. The government failed, the planet descended into civil war, followed by sustained anarchy. All of which happened in the 2250's onwards. Did they even announce their desire to leave the Federation, or were they swept under the rug to maintain the 'squeaky-clean' image the UFP prides itself on?

[Srelex]

Frankly, it's just that not much is given about the Federations' internal workings. I will say that really there's not much actual evidence of them being some crazed dictatorship beyond conjecture, but then there's not much evidence of what we would recognise as democracy.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Carol Marcus apparently didn't think of it as a war - Starfleet had kept the peace for 80 years according to her.

I always read that line as referring to David bitching about scientists being "pawns of the military." Carol talking about keeping a literal peace also doesn't make sense considering her next line is telling David she doesn't accept his interpretation that Starfleet is grabbing their research.

I think Carol was implying that for at least a hundred years Starfleet had left the scientific community alone and had not interfered with or militariased research teams.

Also, I would swear she said "A hundred years" not 80.

Just nitpicking there.

[lord Martiya]

Well, from what I've seen the Federation is not evil, but the people in charge have a tendence to ignore everything not fitting their perception of the Federation as paradise and humans as saints (as Sisko put it once: "On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, and no war. You look out the window and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise but the Maquis do not live in paradise"). Also, I'd like to see how they mantain their paradise: the resources have to come from somewhere.

[Baffalo]

I'm going to be as neutral as I can in regards to my observations of the Federation and Starfleet.

The Federation is supposed to be a republic. Even in the future, it's not possible for everyone throughout the Federation to vote directly on every issue that comes before the government, and so they have a council. This council serves as a legislature, where issues are discussed and voted upon. We see a large military presence within the council, but that can be hand-waved away as members of Starfleet simply visiting when issues dealing with Starfleet are being discussed.

There is a President, who seems to take on the role of head of state. Military control seems to be controlled by the CinC, or Commander in Chief. If this is the case, than a military officer is directly responsible for the military affairs of the Federation, though he must still get approval from the President. This means there is civilian oversight of the Federation military, which hopefully keeps the military from staging a coup of the government.

Life for the average citizen seems to revolve around a healthy dose of propaganda. Without currency, citizens are reliant upon the government for basics such as food and housing, but are otherwise free to pursue careers based on their own choices. Because education is also free, advanced education such as that for engineers, doctors, and others can be pursued, giving the Federation an edge in science and technology. The variety of species also allows the faults and weaknesses of one race to be overcome by another.

Territories far on the frontier are often maintained with outposts, maintaining the link between far flung starships and Starfleet Command. These outposts evolve over time, growing steadily larger with first Starfleet personnel and later civilians who follow the outposts to set up farming communities and provide services for the Starfleet personnel. Over time, these communities continue to expand and grow, eventually becoming large enough to join the Federation as full members. Not all worlds start this way, as some are settled by groups seeking to preserve a particular culture or lifestyle. Some even declare independence from the Federation to preserve this identity.

Starfleet's role is that of a military, plain and simple. They have starships built to explore space and chart out new territory. The reason for scientific teams aboard starships is to, essentially, map territory as its discovered, as well as conduct research for the Federation and Starfleet specifically. This lets Starfleet chart territory and open it up while still maintaining a presence in the area. It's a tried and true method that's worked in the past to expand the western frontier in the United States and elsewhere.

On the whole, Federation starships maintain a balance between defense and offense. Ships are often built to take on multiple roles such that they can deal with the variety of problems starships are likely to encounter. TOS era ships were much more independent compared to ships in TNG, which maintained a near constant link with Starfleet Command. However, even with a clear link to Command, Starfleet captains maintain a level of autonomy to handle situations as they see fit based on the evidence they're presented with.

Wars the Federation have been involved in, prior to the Dominion War, were often short affairs conducted between equal powers. The Earth-Romulan War was short and fairly simple. The Klingon Cold War was by far the longest conflict, but again with an equal power. Both sides were well aware of the risks in going to war, and so it was only the destruction of Praxis that caused the conflict to end. The first true war in which the Federation was involved with a power that was larger and better equipped was with the Dominion, and Starfleet must now prepare to deal with the realities of a power that might wish to resume hostilities at any point.

[Darth Hoth]

I know I'm probably beating a dead horse by starting a subject that's been talked to death about a dozen or so times, but I'm curious to see what everyone thinks about the Federation, its principles and its methods. So, let's get the conversation started.

From what I've read on Darth Wong's site (primarily his fic, Conquest) he views the Federation as a rigid communist dictatorship that controls its citizens with a tight leash and is either evil or at the very least highly arrogant. I don't think of them in that way... I tend to think of them as a brainwashed and misguided society, truly believing they've found a paradise which is in fact a delusion, and trying to bring it to all in the hopes that they'll like it too. It's a lot like mass hysteria. Also as Wong said, they believe in the superiority of technology and how it is our salvation to all of our society's problems. In many aspects, they're like the Borg, "assimilating" people into their holy paradise so that they can share in its joys as well, while not even realizing that they're doing it (Eddington even called Sisko on this, but of course Sisko didn't even consider the possibility, and naturally he was portrayed as evil or at least extremely misguided).

So, thoughts? I want to find a way to bring attention to the Federation's brainwashing in my fic without deviating from character or being too obvious about it.

If you have not yet read it, I highly recommend Publius's treatise on Federation society, "Brave New World". It might be a handful to read through in one go, but it is also the most thorough and authoritative work on the matter that I am aware of. He also includes a huge number of references to primary sources, in case you wish to do further study on your own.

[Lord MJ]

I'm of the belief that other than people that are in space a lot, colonists, people employed in planetary government, or residents of major hub worlds like Earth. The average citizen of the Federation has little to no contact with the Federation's "Federal" government apparatus.

They live their lives on their homeworld and deal with their homeworld's government but their interaction with the Federation government is about the same as an American's interaction with NATO and the UN. They only hear about it via the news and such.

Most of what we see in Star Trek is people that are in space and live a lot of their lives in space. There's a reason for that, the show is called "Star Trek."

[The Romulan Republic]

If you have not yet read it, I highly recommend Publius's treatise on Federation society, "Brave New World". It might be a handful to read through in one go, but it is also the most thorough and authoritative work on the matter that I am aware of. He also includes a huge number of references to primary sources, in case you wish to do further study on your own.

I read some of that article and some rather obvious flaws leaped out.

1. He cites the non-canon novelization of Star Trek The Motion Picture as a source.

2. He tries to argue that "the existing family structure has been largely eclipsed by temporary arrangements and free love" despite the fact that numerous characters throughout canon are married and appear to be in monogamous relationships.

[FTeik]

I seem to remember, that the TPM-novelisation is canon, because it was approved by Gene "It isn't StarTrek until I say its StarTrek" Roddenberry. Of course I could be wrong with that.

Considering your second point, the one doesn't exclude the other. Which (major) canon-characters do we know, who have been married for decades until death did part them?

[Batman]

I seem to remember, that the TPM-novelisation is canon, because it was approved by Gene "It isn't StarTrek until I say its StarTrek" Roddenberry. Of course I could be wrong with that.

By that definition, nothing past 1991 is canon, what with Gene being dead and thus in no position to say it's Star Trek
While that would handily rid us of VOY and ENT in their entirety, not only does Paramount disagree, but it would lose us the part of TNG that finally found its footing, all of DS9, definitely the TNG movies and I think TUC too.
Plus it would cement ludicrously low Warp speeds but then ENT already handily did that with the pilot.

[The Romulan Republic]

I seem to remember, that the TPM-novelisation is canon, because it was approved by Gene "It isn't StarTrek until I say its StarTrek" Roddenberry. Of course I could be wrong with that.

Last I heard, the policy was that only the films and series were treated as canon.

Considering your second point, the one doesn't exclude the other. Which (major) canon-characters do we know, who have been married for decades until death did part them?

Several examples have already been posted of married characters. Pretty sure Janeway was married too.

[FTeik]

I wasn't trying to suggest that everything that came out after GR's death isn't part of ST-canon, but that the TPM-novel is, because it was approved by him when the man was still alive.

As far as marriages are concerned:
We don't know in the case of Crusher and Sisko, if they would have stayed married (and Publius does refer to "temporal arrangements", so it is not as if they jump into bed with another partner every other night), because the spouses died before the kids were grown up, while Miles and Keiko O'Brien come from more traditional backgrounds (see the episode where their wedding is almost cancelled, because in Keiko's culture it is the woman, who is wearing the pants in a marriage or something like that). Aside from that, it is questionable how representative the known examples are for the entire society. Since the only people we know are almost always Starfleet-personal, we are already talking about an exceptional part of the population.

[Batman]

You can't have it both ways. It's either 'Gene says' canon, which excludes everything after his death, or 'Paramount says' canon, which excludes everything not in the series'/movies (and not even all of that, at least 'Threshold' has been decanonized). Unless they made a special exception for 'unless Gene said otherwise' which I'm reasonably certain would have popped up by now.

[FTeik]

Since Paramount owns StarTrek (even when GR was alive) it is safe to say, that they decide on canon. However that doesn't mean, that GR couldn't do the same, while he was still alive. ST-canon is so fucked up (sometimes including some novels and then throwing them out again), that I'm really not sure how the current state of affairs is.

I actually don't care much for it and I doubt most of Paramount does, when it comes to the TPM-novel since the parts, that are also in the movie definetly would be canon. What I mean is, why specially mention the TPM-novel to be canon, if the movie already is and who cares about the few bits mentioned in the novel, but never shown or alluded to in the film?

[Batman]

Actually, ST canon is pretty simple. It's what Paramount says it is. Even if Gene's delusions were canon in the past (and I don't know of any evidence showing anybody but Gene going along with that), they no longer are.
And even WITH 'everything past Gene's death is out' canon Trek is better off without that novel. 'Warp 7. 343 times the speed of light. At that speed, even the far distant Klingon Empire was only days away.' Making the distance to the far distant Klingon Empire, with the number for 'days' being 20-not quite 19 lightyears away.
One of the smartest things TNG did was hardly ever giving distances. They gave time x to get there going Warp Factor y.

[Darth Tedious]

Unless the statement from Paula Block quoted here has been superceded, there are two ways to view canon. One being that everything in the movies and series' is canon (including all contradictions), the other being that it's all canon unless GR (and possibly B & B after GR's death) decanonise it. The second method also decanonises any contradictory cases, with newer material taking priority.

The first method is bad, because it keeps all contradictions in place, and does not resolve them, leaving us with a rather large mess.

The second method is bad, because it makes VOY and ENT higher-level canon than TNG and TOS, though it has the redeeming feature of not being full of contradictions.

/shrugs
Take your pick. I actually like the second method, because it clears up the contradictions.

As for material that was alledgedly decanonised under the second method: TAS, ST:V, unnamed parts of ST:VI (possibly Worf's appearence, it is rather hard to reconcile), and VOY:'Threshold' (best thing B & B ever did, disowning that one). There may be more...

[Darth Tedious]

Do you guys really care what is and is not canon? We can talk about characters and events without a policy from the suits.

Though it's not terribly relevant in the context of this particular thread, it would be good (mostly in versus cases) if there was an agreed policy for the forum.

[Uraniun235]

Do you guys really care what is and is not canon? We can talk about characters and events without a policy from the suits.

Though it's not terribly relevant in the context of this particular thread, it would be good (mostly in versus cases) if there was an agreed policy for the forum.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't see how canon fails to be relevant outside a vs debate. It still helps to have an agreed upon standard of what evidence is legitimate, surely?

[Baffalo]

I don't see how canon fails to be relevant outside a vs debate. It still helps to have an agreed upon standard of what evidence is legitimate, surely?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_canon

Pretty much sums it up. I can't find the link to where it is on the Star Trek website, but I'm content enough with this.

[Stofsk]

I don't see how canon fails to be relevant outside a vs debate. It still helps to have an agreed upon standard of what evidence is legitimate, surely?

That's only important if you're forced to deal with raving lunatics who scream 'Canon!' every waking moment.

[Darth Tedious]

I don't see how canon fails to be relevant outside a vs debate. It still helps to have an agreed upon standard of what evidence is legitimate, surely?

That would be why I said 'mostly in versus cases'. It would indeed still be handy to have an agreed policy for PST discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_canon

Pretty much sums it up. I can't find the link to where it is on the Star Trek website, but I'm content enough with this.

But which method outlined there are you content with?