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(I know I did this 2 years to commemorate DS9's finale anniversary, so here we go again...)

So, 10 years ago tonight the sojourn of the U.S.S. Voyager came to an end -- as did the 24th Century's 14-year run on television.

Frankly, I still think the episode perfectly represents VGR's "have our cake and eat it" mentality and I am not sorry it's gone.

I liked the shiny future armor. I have no idea what it was good for, but it looked suprisingly badass. Also, after Janeway being arrogant and dismissive to her crew and most aliens, it was kind of funny to see her get that same treatment from herself.

I still have trouble with the idea of using future-Janeway to deliver a trojan. The vast, powerful and nearly invincible Borg, and Voyager uploaded a virus onto their mother- well, just mother I suppose. Classy.

Jesus, it's already been this long?!

Anyway I thought "Endgame" was a missed opportunity for the long isolated crew finally coming back and fitting in with AQ society, not even Jeri Ryan thought much of the left-field Seven/Chuckles relationship, by then I was getting more disinterested in ST in general anyway and what little I've seen of "Endgame" felt like a lazy patische of much better VOY stories like "Timeless" and "Scorpion" (episodes that helped made the troubled, hit 'n miss series last as long as TNG and DS9).

Big Orange wrote:Jesus, it's already been this long?!

Let me put it this way: another 18 months and it'll be Nemesis' 10th anniversary.

JME2 wrote:

Big Orange wrote:Jesus, it's already been this long?!

Let me put it this way: another 18 months and it'll be Nemesis' 10th anniversary.

Let me put it this way: in a little less than 3 years it will be TNG's 20th anniversary

The first half of Endgame felt like a boring rehash of All Good Things and Dark Frontier, then gave way to utter stupidity in the second half when Admiral Janeway showed up and gave Voyager a God Mode cheat.

There was a rumoured plot for the finale floating around in early 2001, which ended with Voyager being locked into a time loop and doomed to repeat its journey across the galaxy for all eternity. It was probably never a legit plot and certainly wasn't good by any means, but I think it would have worked better as a finale, simply because it would have been a brilliant allegory for the fact that Voyager was an incredibly repetitious show that never seemed to go anywhere.

Yeah and a couple years after that it'll be TOS' 50th

Man, it's depressing to think that ten years ago I actually liked "Endgame." In fairnes I was 9 at the time and it was "hey cool EXPLOSIONS!"

What a shit memory to drag up!

"Endgame" was a cluster fuck it would have been far better if they had stayed stuck and left the door open for later movies or even a second series with a crew made up of their children and the occasional passerby who decided to join.

But then i always thought it should have been set in another galaxy anyway so screw it.

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Let me put it this way: in a little less than 3 years it will be TNG's 20th anniversary

And the 30th anniversary of "Encounter at Far Point" in six years.

Scary, huh?!

Completely unfufilling.

They spend ages showing a future which will never happen and then go and alter it without any follow up. They made it home... the end.
How about, fuck no ?

Janeway - Complete and utter moron in this episode. She demonstrates her own selfishness AND stupidity by fucking the entire universe to satisfy her desire to save her 'favourites'. Even without that selfishness, the way they perform this is utterly stupid.

Fly into Borg space with super armor - Let Borg scan said armor technology to discover weaknesses before shooting them.
How about fucking destroying the Borg BEFORE they scan and thus DELAY their ability to adapt ?
Apparantly Janeway forgot S8472 kicked the living shit out of the Borg partly because the Borg could not assimilate them to understand how to beat them.

Admiral Janeway - Bring back technology aboard a shuttle that dosent work with Voyager. I.E The Stealth Tech.
Nice going dumbass, you went to all that trouble to bring back technology and didnt check to see if it was backwards compatible. How fitting it would have been if none of it had worked.

Both Janeways - Fly a shuttle from the future into the heart of the Borg collective with a future version onboad... to get assimilated.
This is a REALLY bad idea. The Borg could capture said shuttle thus ripping it apart for any advantage it might bring or the assimilation process grants the Borg access to Janeway's future information. INCLUDING said technology.

Well done, you potentially gave the Borg access to information that counters all the gizmos you brought back AND fucked everyone if any information turns out to be useable. I.E Borg being desperate to acquire and stablise the Omega Particle.
Oh look, Janeway found a planet that found them and potentially discovered a way to stablise them. Wonder what would happen if the Borg caught that little bit of information ?

Dealing a crippling blow to the Borg - The Borg have 6 Transwarp hubs and they destroyed 1. That leaves 5 left.
They hammer the Unicomplex and nail a Queen but logic and evidence indicates they have or can make more Queens. The Borg themselves can work independently without the Queen and I didnt see any mention the virus would TOTALLY exterminate the Borg.

Result: You potentially stirred up a massive hornets nest by provoking the Borg. Even the Q seemingly discourage doing so but here we have Voyager giving them a pounding the likes of which hasnt happened since S8472. Whos going to bear the brunt of Borg retaliation as they assimilate / conquer territories to reassemble their forces.

Oh yeah, everyone around them in the Delta Quadrant. Thanks Janeway.
Whats going to happen when the Borg finally reassemble their forces. Revenge strike at Earth and a whole new restructuring of the Borg potentially into something worse.

STO played out the Borg became far more aggressive and decided to adopt the "Join us or Die" mentality due to Janeway's actions. When the Borg were getting hammered by S8472 they were proposing the deployment of super-nukes. Is saving 100 - 200 people worth bringing down the wrath of genocidal and vengeful Borg ?
I dont think so somehow.

This happened in the TNG relaunch and the Star Trek: Destiny trilogy too. Janeway push the Borg too far and it came back to bite the entire Alpha Quadrant in the ass.

On the bright side, at least the Borg would be scary again if that happened. Too bad we'll most likely never see it played out in canon.

In one of the novels featuring one of these "what if?" massive Borg reprisal attacks on the UFP, didn't Janeway get hers and got assimilated?

The Borg would probably regroup after getting seriously crippled in the short to medium term in "Endgame", and also Species 8472 are major antagonists in a recent video game, with their civilization more fleshed out (and they've even got a formal name). And while not as inherently destructive, the Dominion are still out there and remember they chose to pull out of the AQ quietly...

DaveJB wrote:The first half of Endgame felt like a boring rehash of All Good Things and Dark Frontier

They should have dumped most of the first part of the episode and spent the second part exploring the celebrations and joy of finally reaching earth and what they planned to do next


i'm sure harry signed up for the first deep space mission he could find

The episode wasn't very good, typical Voyager really, but it was REALLY bad as a series finale.

Now if they had made this the MID-SEASON episode and left the last half of Season-7 to dealing with Voyager back home and all the plot threads to be tied up therein, then things could have been a lot more interesting.

And holy crap, its been THAT LONG?

Big Orange wrote:In one of the novels featuring one of these "what if?" massive Borg reprisal attacks on the UFP, didn't Janeway get hers and got assimilated?

Yes and was killed...but in typical VGR fashion, they had their cake and ate it as Lady Q ascended her to a higher plane of existence...

Thanks for bringing up memories of that idiocy. Quite frankly, the only good thing to come out of Season 7 of Voyager was Neelix getting left behind to rot (and hopefully die).

Thanas wrote:Thanks for bringing up memories of that idiocy. Quite frankly, the only good thing to come out of Season 7 of Voyager was Neelix getting left behind to rot (and hopefully die).

Heh.

JME2 wrote:

Thanas wrote:Thanks for bringing up memories of that idiocy. Quite frankly, the only good thing to come out of Season 7 of Voyager was Neelix getting left behind to rot (and hopefully die).

Heh.

S7 was pretty underwhelming, I heartily agree with Chris OFarrell that the homecoming should've happened much earlier in the final season, however I didn't mind "Body and Soul" and "Workforce" (the one with the factory which enslaved workers by implanted memories), those episodes were candyfloss, but entertaining candyfloss.

TNG's "All Good Things", Babylon 5's "Sleeping in the Light" and Life on Mars' final episode are the only show finales that I found very successful, while DS9's "What You Leave Behind" and Ashes to Ashes' final episode had their problems but did more right than wrong.

It seems that Lost, Enterprise, Battlestar Galactica, The X-Files, Stargate SG-1, Stargate Atlantis, Heroes and Star Trek: TOS had middling poor final episodes as well...

I positively fail to see what was wrong with The Undiscovered Country (wrt TOS' ending).

Batman wrote:I positively fail to see what was wrong with The Undiscovered Country (wrt TOS' ending).

That was a very successful movie spin-off, I was talking more about the sexist and mean "Turnabout Intruder" episode the actual TOS unfortunately trailed off with nearly two decades before.

Fair enough. To me TOS means the TOS era which definitely includes the first six movies, but you're definitely correct on the actual Original Series ending with Turnabout Intruder.

Big Orange wrote:
It seems that Lost, Enterprise, Battlestar Galactica, The X-Files, Stargate SG-1, Stargate Atlantis, Heroes and Star Trek: TOS had middling poor final episodes as well...

Hey! I SG-1 had a fine ending. They go fishing. I just stop there and am perfectly happy for it.

Of those listed, I really can't decide which was a worse ending...X-Files or Enterprise.

While we're on the topic, I'm always torn on how I feel about DS9's finale. I liked how they wrapped up the individual character arcs, and the Dominion War conclusion was alright (the female Changeling's determination before Odo cured her was chilling) but I HATED the whole Bajoran Pah-Wraith crap, and felt that really ruined aspects of the season (as well as destroying Gul Dukat as a character, who I thought was awesome before this nonsense started).