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Recently in a debate about Borg KE shields something occured in my mind: If the Tommy Gun worked, how come didn't Picard use the replicators to make some guns and ammos and shoot the Borg dead?

Some ideas:
(1) It didn't come to his mind
(2) Replicators can't produce gunpowder
(3) The Borg WILL adapt(?)
(4) ??

Picard was in a bit of a hurry getting to the bridge with bloodlust

Grand Moff Yenchin wrote: (4) ??

(4) Using guns would have meant that B&B would have needed to write a screenplay that didn't insult the intelligence of the viewers. We all know they either can't or won't do this.

Because SF officers are too stupid to realize that KE weapons like assault rifles and Tommy guns are more effective than 23rd century piece of shit energy weapons like phasers.

The weapons used by both sides (pirates and Templars) in the movie Ice Pirates would have been more effective against the Borg thann the phasers were. A few shots from energy pistols, followed by work with sword, mace and battle axe would have at least given the crew some kind of fighting chance.

Of course, replicating assault rifles, machine guns, submachine guns and pistols along with the necessary ammunition would have been even more effective and would have quickly reduced the Borg to spare parts. Unfortunately, it's something that is obvious to almost anyone who bothers to think about it, even those who don't really care for SF much, but the folks in charge of making the movies did not bother to think about it (or figured the stupid geeks who watch crazy Buck Rogers stuff would be too busy drooling over the kewl FX, twirling their helicopter beanies, and listening in awe to yet another impassioned and pointless speech).

ICE PIRATES!!!! I barely remember that movie! Fuck that's a blast from the past. It was a bit of a comedy, wasn't it?

Vympel wrote:ICE PIRATES!!!! I barely remember that movie! Fuck that's a blast from the past. It was a bit of a comedy, wasn't it?

Bit?? More like the whole movie, starting from the heroes escaping castration, to them fighting with their own sons on their side in some twisted time travel anomaly... Hum, I think somebody has been stealing some ideias.

Warspite wrote: Bit?? More like the whole movie, starting from the heroes escaping castration, to them fighting with their own sons on their side in some twisted time travel anomaly... Hum, I think somebody has been stealing some ideias.

It's kinda coming back to me ... the entire movie was like- UBER cheese IIRC.

Someone should do a Borg versus Ice Pirates scenario.

Vympel wrote:
It's kinda coming back to me ... the entire movie was like- UBER cheese IIRC.

Someone should do a Borg versus Ice Pirates scenario.

This gives me an idea of Borg vs. Batman & Robin (Adam West duo)

Because that would be the logical thing to do. The typical answer.

Don`t forget how the pirates entered that one ship through the bthroom and there own ship caught Space Herpes.

On some page I was reading (maybe it was Darkstar?) they tried to argue that it wasn't a REAL gun (despite the safeties being off) but just something that fired miniature forcefields (holographic bullets).

Still, you'd think that if that were true, SF could just install holo-emitters throughout the entire ship (the technology exists.. with the EMH) then you could instantly have a holographic borg-killer gun instantly with a voice authorization command.

Though it would still be smarter to just have a few slug throwers onboard anyway (and it wouldn't require that much more training, and wouldn't depend on holodeck power being stable).

The other thing would have been to replicate some swords or something (Worf's worked pretty well, after all).

There mighty replicator's cant even make a warp core hatch. Its likely none of them are large enough to make a complete gun, and the crew is far too stupid to make parts and then assemble them.

Kurgan wrote:On some page I was reading (maybe it was Darkstar?) they tried to argue that it wasn't a REAL gun (despite the safeties being off) but just something that fired miniature forcefields (holographic bullets).

This is obvious.

Howedar wrote:

Kurgan wrote:On some page I was reading (maybe it was Darkstar?) they tried to argue that it wasn't a REAL gun (despite the safeties being off) but just something that fired miniature forcefields (holographic bullets).

This is obvious.

You forgot to mention his moronic leap in logic that if it's a forcefield, then it does not approximate the behaviour of a bullet. A forcefield would exert force on the Borg drones. However, a bullet would only exert ... force. Classic dumb-ass argument; he looks for a distinction and then acts as though it proves the effect can't possibly be the same, even though the holodeck is specifically designed to make it a precise simulation.

Darth Wong wrote:

Howedar wrote:

Kurgan wrote:On some page I was reading (maybe it was Darkstar?) they tried to argue that it wasn't a REAL gun (despite the safeties being off) but just something that fired miniature forcefields (holographic bullets).

This is obvious.

You forgot to mention his moronic leap in logic that if it's a forcefield, then it does not approximate the behaviour of a bullet. A forcefield would exert force on the Borg drones. However, a bullet would only exert ... force. Classic dumb-ass argument; he looks for a distinction and then acts as though it proves the effect can't possibly be the same, even though the holodeck is specifically designed to make it a precise simulation.

I'm not saying that it matters worth a damn. Its just that, as far as I know, the holodeck does not create real objects to be interacted with. This is correct, is it not?

Howedar wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

Howedar wrote:This is obvious.

You forgot to mention his moronic leap in logic that if it's a forcefield, then it does not approximate the behaviour of a bullet. A forcefield would exert force on the Borg drones. However, a bullet would only exert ... force. Classic dumb-ass argument; he looks for a distinction and then acts as though it proves the effect can't possibly be the same, even though the holodeck is specifically designed to make it a precise simulation.

I'm not saying that it matters worth a damn. Its just that, as far as I know, the holodeck does not create real objects to be interacted with. This is correct, is it not?

Actually, I think the Holodeck uses replicators as well as forcefields and holograms, so you can create something on the holodeck and carry it out. Though "people" created by the holodeck can't leave unless someone is desperate for an episode plot.

Howedar wrote:I'm not saying that it matters worth a damn. Its just that, as far as I know, the holodeck does not create real objects to be interacted with. This is correct, is it not?

Yes and no. Some of the objects seem to be ephemeral (Redblock vanished once leaving the holodeck), but objects have been taken out before, as noted in the Moriarty episode when a book was taken out, thus indicating replication (there was also an incident when a snowball was thrown out into the hallway). There may be no way of knowing whether the bullets in this case were replicated or forcefield-projected.

Wesley also stepped out of the holodeck in "Encounter at Farpoint" after falling into a pool. He was sopping wet. The elaborate costumes that O'Brien and Bashir always wear outside of the holodeck also indicate that the holodeck can use replicators. In this case, I tend to believe that Picard's statement indicated that the bullets fired were smoke-and-mirror projections, as opposed to real things, but I still don't see why this indicates that the Borg can adapt to KE weapons.

Master of Ossus wrote:Wesley also stepped out of the holodeck in "Encounter at Farpoint" after falling into a pool. He was sopping wet. The elaborate costumes that O'Brien and Bashir always wear outside of the holodeck also indicate that the holodeck can use replicators. In this case, I tend to believe that Picard's statement indicated that the bullets fired were smoke-and-mirror projections, as opposed to real things, but I still don't see why this indicates that the Borg can adapt to KE weapons.

Actually sometimes they walk INTO the holodeck in costume. Maybe they just have favorite uniforms they like to keep.

neoolong wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:Wesley also stepped out of the holodeck in "Encounter at Farpoint" after falling into a pool. He was sopping wet. The elaborate costumes that O'Brien and Bashir always wear outside of the holodeck also indicate that the holodeck can use replicators. In this case, I tend to believe that Picard's statement indicated that the bullets fired were smoke-and-mirror projections, as opposed to real things, but I still don't see why this indicates that the Borg can adapt to KE weapons.

Actually sometimes they walk INTO the holodeck in costume. Maybe they just have favorite uniforms they like to keep.

1. As DS9 is some distance from Earth and most other planets with the interest of making such costumes, I would be surprised if they were ordered from off-planet.
2. Bashir and O'Brien MET on DS9. For the two of them, with their considerable diversity of holoprograms, to just HAPPEN to have the same tastes in every single one (to the point where they all have costumes for each of their favorites) would strike me as VERY unusual--especially because they sometimes talk about trying out "new" programs.
3. Bashir invited Ezri Dax to come with him to a particular holoprogram in the final episode of DS9. Ezri did NOT have a costume, and could not have gone to Garak's shop (or anywhere else, for that matter) to get the costume in the time he allowed her. This indicates that the costumes can be replicated, and the most logical place to replicate something like that is on the holodeck. They are probably programmed with the programs themselves.

Thus, the conclusion is that the costumes are made on the holodeck.

Master of Ossus wrote:

neoolong wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:Wesley also stepped out of the holodeck in "Encounter at Farpoint" after falling into a pool. He was sopping wet. The elaborate costumes that O'Brien and Bashir always wear outside of the holodeck also indicate that the holodeck can use replicators. In this case, I tend to believe that Picard's statement indicated that the bullets fired were smoke-and-mirror projections, as opposed to real things, but I still don't see why this indicates that the Borg can adapt to KE weapons.

Actually sometimes they walk INTO the holodeck in costume. Maybe they just have favorite uniforms they like to keep.

1. As DS9 is some distance from Earth and most other planets with the interest of making such costumes, I would be surprised if they were ordered from off-planet.
2. Bashir and O'Brien MET on DS9. For the two of them, with their considerable diversity of holoprograms, to just HAPPEN to have the same tastes in every single one (to the point where they all have costumes for each of their favorites) would strike me as VERY unusual--especially because they sometimes talk about trying out "new" programs.
3. Bashir invited Ezri Dax to come with him to a particular holoprogram in the final episode of DS9. Ezri did NOT have a costume, and could not have gone to Garak's shop (or anywhere else, for that matter) to get the costume in the time he allowed her. This indicates that the costumes can be replicated, and the most logical place to replicate something like that is on the holodeck. They are probably programmed with the programs themselves.

Thus, the conclusion is that the costumes are made on the holodeck.

Never said they weren't. I simply meant to point out that they are not always made every single time.

Darth Wong wrote:

Howedar wrote:I'm not saying that it matters worth a damn. Its just that, as far as I know, the holodeck does not create real objects to be interacted with. This is correct, is it not?

Yes and no. Some of the objects seem to be ephemeral (Redblock vanished once leaving the holodeck), but objects have been taken out before, as noted in the Moriarty episode when a book was taken out, thus indicating replication (there was also an incident when a snowball was thrown out into the hallway). There may be no way of knowing whether the bullets in this case were replicated or forcefield-projected.

Okay. Shouldn't matter at all of couese, KE is KE whether it is transferrewd by object or forcefield.

neoolong wrote:Never said they weren't. I simply meant to point out that they are not always made every single time.

True. I believe that they are props manufactured on the holodeck, but ones that may be removed later at the leisure of the occupant.

In order to "adapt" to an impact, you'd have to negate it or produce an equal and opposite counter force. The idea of "adapting" to a bullet hitting you in the chest is silly and absurd. The sheer ignorance of the rabid Trekkie populace on a concept like kinetic energy is just astounding. They think, "AHA! It has energy, so the Borg can adapt to it!"

Collisions are controlled by momentum. Yes, you can do some collision problems just by using kinetic energy values, but it'd be stupid to use that approach for elementary problems. Why? Because in a collision, momentum is always conserved, while kinetic energy doesn't have to be.

A more accurate question is, "Can the Borg adapt to momentum"? The answer is, quite obviously, no because momentum must be conserved. So, if a Borg gets hit by a heavy object traveling at high velocity, he'll get knocked down. The only way to prevent that would be to wear sufficient armor so that his mass is increased such that the impact's momentum becomes irrelevant or to stand behind a force field that generates a constant force going away from the drone large enough that it will repel an object flying at it. The latter solution is not specific to any weapon; it is universal, so the Borg, if they could, would have had that solution in place. Since Data and Worf have physically damaged and destroyed Borg drones on plenty of occasions, it's safe to conclude that they can only adapt to attacks which are based on heat energy transfer through radiation.