Source for antimatter? (was: Eject The Warp Core!)

[Rye]

Well, actually this has nothing to do with ejecting it. My question is, where do they get all the antimatter from in star trek?

[Enlightenment]

<mod hat on>

Thread title altered.

<mod hat off>

Well, actually this has nothing to do with ejecting it. My question is, where do they get all the antimatter from in star trek?

According to the TNGTM, the UFP produces antimatter at several solar-powered facilities in a close orbit around various stars.

As an interesting aside, note that the Federation's economic model (i.e. everyone does whatever they want) actually begins to make some sense given the kind of energy costs implied by being able to fuel starships with ~500 odd tons of antimatter on a regular basis.

[Bartman]

It is also important to note that while starships use antimatter, there is very little evidence of it elsewhere. For example DS9 uses fusion reactors. Antimatter seems to be reserved for ships.

[Burak Gazan]

It is also important to note that while starships use antimatter, there is very little evidence of it elsewhere. For example DS9 uses fusion reactors. Antimatter seems to be reserved for ships.

Perhaps the habit of M/AM powerplants detonating at the drop of a hat are a good reason why you wouldn't want these things around planetside

[apocolypse]

Wasn't there also something in the TM about starships supposedly being able to produce antimatter on board? IIRC they can do it, but the energy consumption involved makes it prohibitive unless it's an emergency circumstance. Alyeska would know for sure. (Maybe it was deuterium I'm thinking of?)

[Sir Sirius]

It is also important to note that while starships use antimatter, there is very little evidence of it elsewhere. For example DS9 uses fusion reactors. Antimatter seems to be reserved for ships.

DS9, Terok Nor, is an old Cardassian station, I wouldn't use it as an example of Feddie technology.

[Sea Skimmer]

Fusion makes sense for a space station. You don't need to worry about propelling the added fuel and reactor mass beyond occasional bursts to keep orbit. And if a world in the system or the one your in orbit of has water, obtaining fuel is easy.

Any one using antimatter would need a greater capacity for fusion or other power sources simply to allow them to make anti matter, which is net loss. Its possibul DS9 had added fusion power to make anti matter for passing starships.

That would also explain why they could fit so many added weapons and shields.

[Batman]

Maybe warpdrive is the only thing that actually needs the additional power per reactant mass provided by going M/AM instead of fusion?
Those things aren't called 'warpcores' for nothing.
As Sea Skimmer pointed out, the added mass of additional fusion reactors for the same power output doesn't matter on a stationary installation.
Installing more/larger fusion reactors on starships, instead, provokes a neverending cycle:
more reactor mass means a larger ship means larger impulse engines for the same accelleration means larger ship means more powerful reactors for the impulse drive means larger ship again means more powerful impulse engines for the same accelleration...
(And that's assuming mass makes no difference for Warp power requirements...)
Thus they need the additional efficiency of M/AM compared to fusion to keep their ships from becoming warp-capable orbital installations.
For already stationary objects, or STL ships, the mass savings are simply not worth the inherent risks of M/AM.

EDITED to improve formatting
EDITED again because the first one didn't work out

[Bartman]

DS9, Terok Nor, is an old Cardassian station, I wouldn't use it as an example of Feddie technology.

It's an example of Alpha quadrant technology. With a very few exceptions the technology is fairly uniform. For the purposes of this discussion it is close enough.

[Sir Sirius]

It's an example of Alpha quadrant technology. With a very few exceptions the technology is fairly uniform. For the purposes of this discussion it is close enough.

It is an aged example produced by a technologicaly inferior power and does not serve as evidence of Federation starbase power sources.

[Howedar]

Wasn't there also something in the TM about starships supposedly being able to produce antimatter on board? IIRC they can do it, but the energy consumption involved makes it prohibitive unless it's an emergency circumstance. Alyeska would know for sure. (Maybe it was deuterium I'm thinking of?)

Thats asinine. Where do they get the power to do that, the M/AM reactor?

[Enlightenment]

Thats asinine. Where do they get the power to do that, the M/AM reactor?

From the fusion reactors in the impulse drive units.

[apocolypse]

Thats asinine. Where do they get the power to do that, the M/AM reactor?

From the fusion reactors in the impulse drive units.

Right, apparently it's not done often because it consumes a lot of power to create a little antimatter? Can't remember the whole story, lost my TM a long time ago.

[Enlightenment]

Right, apparently it's not done often because it consumes a lot of power to create a little antimatter? Can't remember the whole story, lost my TM a long time ago.

It's supposed to be for emergency use only.

It makes a tiny bit of sense if one assumes that the warp drive requires more energy delivered over a shorter time period than the fusion reactors can provide. If the ship was stranded in deep space due to running out of antimatter, the fusion reactors could be run for a few weeks or months to create enough antimatter for a comparitively very short warp run back to civilization.

Of course, this begs the question of what kind of idiot would let a starship run out of fuel in the first place...

[Bartman]

It's an example of Alpha quadrant technology. With a very few exceptions the technology is fairly uniform. For the purposes of this discussion it is close enough.

It is an aged example produced by a technologicaly inferior power and does not serve as evidence of Federation starbase power sources.

It can't be too aged as we know it is less than a few decades old. The feds have thousands of ships older than that. And the Cardassians can't be too technologicaly inferior. Remember they were able to fight the Federation to a draw just a few years earlier. They also have all significant Federation techs including teleporters, phasers, photon torpedos, replicators and holodecks. Certainly any difference is far more comparable to France vs Italy then the USA vs Angola.

On top of that the Feds were able to use the station, as is. No additional training was needed by O'Brian to maintain the reactors. Even when they significantly upgraded the weapons systems they did not change the reactors. They just added new conduits to the new shield emiters and phaser strips. This all demonstrates and unreal level of compatability between Cardasian systems and Federation systems. The only way to explain this is that the Federation reactors were functionally identical.

But if you have a better example of Federation starbase power sources, please do provide it.

[Master of Ossus]

It can't be too aged as we know it is less than a few decades old. The feds have thousands of ships older than that. And the Cardassians can't be too technologicaly inferior. Remember they were able to fight the Federation to a draw just a few years earlier. They also have all significant Federation techs including teleporters, phasers, photon torpedos, replicators and holodecks. Certainly any difference is far more comparable to France vs Italy then the USA vs Angola.

That doesn't mean that they're technologically comparable. The Cardassian Galor class warship in "The Wounded" was destroyed in a single salvo by the USS Phoenix. In fact, that whole episode strongly indicated that the Cardassians were significantly inferior technologically to the UFP, but had won with numbers and ground troops. Additionally, all of your "significant Federation techs" are ALSO present in TOS and ENT (with the possible exception of replicators). Their presence shows NOTHING.

On top of that the Feds were able to use the station, as is. No additional training was needed by O'Brian to maintain the reactors.

Not really. They spent the entire first episode complaining about how crappy the station's systems were. The station was also constantly breaking down.

Even when they significantly upgraded the weapons systems they did not change the reactors. They just added new conduits to the new shield emiters and phaser strips. This all demonstrates and unreal level of compatability between Cardasian systems and Federation systems. The only way to explain this is that the Federation reactors were functionally identical.

True, which further indicates that it's not too surprising that O'Brien was able to get the reactors "up" so quickly, although he did take some time to do it.

[Howedar]

Thats asinine. Where do they get the power to do that, the M/AM reactor?

From the fusion reactors in the impulse drive units.

So you use the fusion reactors to create antimatter so you can annihilate it? Whats the damn point?

[Enlightenment]

So you use the fusion reactors to create antimatter so you can annihilate it? Whats the damn point?

As I said upthread this 'feature' is intended for emergency use should a ship become stranded in deep space due to a lack of antimatter.

The only way it makes even the slightest bit of sense is if one assumes that the warp drive specifically requires antimatter to operate but doesn't need any more energy than could be generated through fusion.

[Uraniun235]

So you use the fusion reactors to create antimatter so you can annihilate it? Whats the damn point?

Howedar, go build me a coal-fired aircraft and tell me how it goes.

It's all about energy density. The fusion reactors cannot provide enough energy in the timespan required for the warp drive to operate. However, over time they can produce enough antimatter (I think the TM says it takes 10 units of deuterium to get one unit of antimatter) for a limited run at low warp.

I think the Galaxy class is the only class of starship to have an antimatter generator onboard, as the TM states that it is the second most massive component on the ship, second only to the warp coils.

I don't think it's a practical idea; I think the space would be better put to use storing more antimatter.

[Darth Wong]

Antimatter is a net-loss system unless you have a natural source for it somewhere. You will consume more energy creating the antimatter than you would ever get from annihilating it with matter. Therefore, the use of antimatter is most likely a resource-intensive process which puts a considerable drain on the economic infrastructure of any spacefaring race. It is also obvious why they don't use M/AM for space stations and planetary installations, even if we disregard the safety concerns.

[SirNitram]

Antimatter is a net-loss system unless you have a natural source for it somewhere. You will consume more energy creating the antimatter than you would ever get from annihilating it with matter. Therefore, the use of antimatter is most likely a resource-intensive process which puts a considerable drain on the economic infrastructure of any spacefaring race. It is also obvious why they don't use M/AM for space stations and planetary installations, even if we disregard the safety concerns.

Then I have to ask.. Is there any form of power production which is a net gain, aside from limited resources like coal and fossil fuels?

The only one coming to mind is gaining hydrogen from water, then using a fusion core more efficient then the ones we have..

[Enlightenment]

Then I have to ask.. Is there any form of power production which is a net gain, aside from limited resources like coal and fossil fuels?

All power sources are ultimately limited simply because there is a limited amount of energy in the universe. Ultimately you're going to run out of fuel regardless of if you're using coal for combustion or hydrogen for fusion.

[Howedar]

Howedar, go build me a coal-fired aircraft and tell me how it goes.

It's all about energy density. The fusion reactors cannot provide enough energy in the timespan required for the warp drive to operate. However, over time they can produce enough antimatter (I think the TM says it takes 10 units of deuterium to get one unit of antimatter) for a limited run at low warp.

I think the Galaxy class is the only class of starship to have an antimatter generator onboard, as the TM states that it is the second most massive component on the ship, second only to the warp coils.

I don't think it's a practical idea; I think the space would be better put to use storing more antimatter.

Fair enough, I suppose. I agree with you about the practicality.


Oh by the way, Henry Maxim did in fact build a steam-powered aircraft that likely could have gotten off the ground. So nyeh

[SirNitram]

Then I have to ask.. Is there any form of power production which is a net gain, aside from limited resources like coal and fossil fuels?

All power sources are ultimately limited simply because there is a limited amount of energy in the universe. Ultimately you're going to run out of fuel regardless of if you're using coal for combustion or hydrogen for fusion.

I meant greatly limited ones, IE, those that occour only on worlds with carbon-based life for millions of years.

[Uraniun235]

Oh by the way, Henry Maxim did in fact build a steam-powered aircraft that likely could have gotten off the ground. So nyeh

Damn! You win this round, Howedar...