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Zor

You messed up the links. Your part 3 link links to part 2 and vice versa.

He didn't do Insurrection before.

Like Chuck said, the movie's biggest sin was to be entirely forgettable, it draws neither acclaim nor rage. True, some people get offended by the Luddism, but that's hardly new to sci-fi, and far from the most egregious example (I'm looking at you, nBSG.)

One thing that bugged me about the movie, when Picard asks about the Sona (or however it's spelled) and they look them up, they see the Sona were allies of the Dominion. They never actually fought in the war, but they did manufacture kectracel-white for the AQ Jem'hadar. Picard asks somewhat rhetorically how the Federation can work with these people and I don't think the movie ever gave us a satisfactory answer. Okay, the Sona have the technology to harvest the meta-whatever particles, but the Federation can probably figure it out eventually. I just don't see how Doherty could justify their involvement to the boys on earth.

Ahriman238 wrote:One thing that bugged me about the movie, when Picard asks about the Sona (or however it's spelled) and they look them up, they see the Sona were allies of the Dominion. They never actually fought in the war, but they did manufacture kectracel-white for the AQ Jem'hadar. Picard asks somewhat rhetorically how the Federation can work with these people and I don't think the movie ever gave us a satisfactory answer. Okay, the Sona have the technology to harvest the meta-whatever particles, but the Federation can probably figure it out eventually. I just don't see how Doherty could justify their involvement to the boys on earth.

Because they want it now, not in several years or more.

What's more, it's an opportunity to lure a significant Dominion ally into the fold. Memory Alpha puts the movie around the same time as the DS9 episode 'It's only a Paper Moon', meaning that the Dominion forces are cut off from the Wormhole. The logistical problems this caused, combined with occupying the resource-starved Cardassian territories, are one of the major reasons, if not the only reason, for the Dominion defeat. If the Dominion 'colony' in the Alpha Quadrant was willing to outsource production of a substance as crucial to their war effort as Ketracel White, then the So'na must be able to produce sufficient amounts of it, and/or at a low enough cost to be worthwhile. Ispo facto, the Federation has a very good reason to lure the So'na away from the Dominion, weaking the Dominion forces in the process.

What I was wondering about while watching Chuck's reviews is that a lot of the moral arguments are based on the idea that The Sona and Federation can deliver on all these miracle cures. Now the film gives us no reason to suspect anything else but it got me wondering.

So the Sona hoover up all the rings in their giant solar sail phallus thing. What happens to the planet then? Do the rings eventually reform? Or have you destroyed your fountain of truth? Do you have one big bucket full of cure and that's it? You're gambling on being able to figure how to synthesize the effect from that one single lot of cure. Wouldn't you be more like to figure it out from long term study of the rings?

They could have effective made the Sona more villianous if they were tricking the Feds into hoovering up the ring for them with promised miracle cures. Picard and co make the hard choice to attempt to relocate the baku to save billions or whatever and they find out the hoovered up cure will only help the Sona cure themselves and leave the federation holding an empty bag. Then Picard and co would have to stop them.

What's more, it's an opportunity to lure a significant Dominion ally into the fold. Memory Alpha puts the movie around the same time as the DS9 episode 'It's only a Paper Moon', meaning that the Dominion forces are cut off from the Wormhole. The logistical problems this caused, combined with occupying the resource-starved Cardassian territories, are one of the major reasons, if not the only reason, for the Dominion defeat. If the lure the So'na away from the Dominion, weaking the Dominion forces in the process.Dominion 'colony' in the Alpha Quadrant was willing to outsource production of a substance as crucial to their war effort as Ketracel White, then the So'na must be able to produce sufficient amounts of it, and/or at a low enough cost to be worthwhile. Ispo facto, the Federation has a very good reason to

Well, it never occured to me that the Dominion War might be ongoing during this movie. In hindsight it really should have. This does not make the Federation seem the wiser for inviting their enemies into their space for a little collaboration on an immoral (presumably secret) project.

They could have effective made the Sona more villianous if they were tricking the Feds into hoovering up the ring for them with promised miracle cures. Picard and co make the hard choice to attempt to relocate the baku to save billions or whatever and they find out the hoovered up cure will only help the Sona cure themselves and leave the federation holding an empty bag. Then Picard and co would have to stop them.

Well, at the very least they could probably assure short-term regeneration, as occured with Geordi. Of course, that wore off once he was no longer under the radiation so...

I like Chuck's idea for improving the movie better. Actually have the crew be divided on the morality of the thing, so instead of Rua'fo calling the shots on the hunt for Picard and the locals, it's Riker.

I liked chucks Idea as well, though at the same time I wonder how well it would work while still being able to have Riker and Worf on good terms with the others by the end. It would probably be better to have them stay at odds by the end of the film to set up better sequels. Slowly bringing the crew back together and making ammends (The franchise might have even survived Enterprise if they had done that, rather than us getting Nemesis instead and having to wait for the series reboot for more Trek.) It also could have changed the dynamic of the Enterprise Series finale. Instead of being set during TNG "Pegasus" it could have been set during post Insurrection, as Riker re-evaluates his choices and the schism between him and Picard. It also would have given the TNG films a cross film arc, which is something that IMO made the TOS films so successful.

I remember the Son'a being mentioned in DS9 after Insurrection as still part of the Dominion during a War planning session where Weyoun wanted to move Cardassian ships to reinforce a planet or something. Damar disagreed with the choice, stating that "The Son'a can handle it."

I just read Michael Piller's Fade In, and I think the first draft of this movie was the strongest, and that it got progressively worse as the production went on.

Basic summary:

Picard, his Academy friend Duffy, and Elanor, a chick they both pined for, all attended the academy at the same time, and the movie opens with an Academy formal, with Duffy and Picard playing pranks and then having a nice talk with Boothy while Nat King Cole's Stardust playing.(the original title was Star Trek: Stardust, btw). Years later, the UFP president, a Vulcan(who they wanted Ian Mckellan for), is trying to make a permanent peace treaty between the UFP and the Romulans. The problem is, Duffy has gone rogue and is fighting against Romulans ships in the Briar Patch. They send Picard and Elanor comes along, wanting to find out what's happened to her husband.

Crusher notes to Picard that there is a shortage of the mineral they use for most of their medicine, so they're on rationing.

They meet the Romulans, there's a villain named Joss, who gets into a swordfight with Worf, and they eventually chart the Briar Patch, finding the Baku. The Baku have taken up arms against the Romulans, with Duffy leading them. The Baku planet is composed of the mineral, and the Romulans are stripmining the planet. They find Duffy as the spitting image of how he was as an academy cadet. Picard realizes he's been used to chart the Briar Patch so that the Romulans could reach the planet. Realizing he's been used, Picard joins Duffy, Riker has to hunt for him with the Romulans, and eventually the family comes back together as Picard joins Duffy in being back in his 20s. Eventually, the Enterprise fights the Romulans.

The Enterprise rushes to Earth, and explains everything to the Federation Council. The President orders them all arrested, and with a slow clap from the general audience led by Boothby, the movie ends with the will of the people spoken.

Hey Fax, the link where the original story seems to have died. Can I have a copy of it?

Generations and Nemesis may have been mediocre Trek movies that didn't do the TNG series at its best much justice, however at least we had Picard's crew actively saving billions of lives from unambigiously evil madmen, instead of denying increased longevity to the entire UFP while keeping a straight face to please some sanctimonious luddites selfishly sitting on the fountain of youth. And Insurrection feeling a lot like a middling TNG two parter is a universal complaint and the action is so bland (worse than Generations' final battle, Picard facing off against Ru'afo is two late middle aged men in silly costumes fighting each other in a poorly choreographed, plodding duel).

As Crazedwraith said, it would've worked better if they played up the selfishness of Ahdar Ru'afo, with him intending to betray Starfleet from the start, running away with the entire harvested crop of immortality radiation/gas (it wasn't conveyed well in the movie and the Baku were shown as somewhat creepy pseudo Amish). I was faintly unimpressed with this movie when I was 13 and like Lost in Space movie (which also came out in the same year) has gotten worse in recent years.

And here's Mr. Plinkett's review of Insurrection (IMHO better than his more infamous, more flabby SW PT reviews).

A resounding meh and ugh from me.

Insurrection fails for the same reason nBSG's ending leaves a bad taste in many mouths. Fans of SF are people who embrace technology on the whole. Holding up primitives, luddites and so on as paragons of morality and society grates with that. Sure, you can have a theme about embracing technology no questions asked. That's part of what makes the cybermen and borg such wonderful villains. But rejecting technology?
Even Joe Sixpack can see the problems with that after he drives home, turns on the heater and gets a beer from the fridge.

Insurrection fails for the same reason nBSG's ending leaves a bad taste in many mouths. Fans of SF are people who embrace technology on the whole. Holding up primitives, luddites and so on as paragons of morality and society grates with that. Sure, you can have a theme about embracing technology no questions asked. That's part of what makes the cybermen and borg such wonderful villains. But rejecting technology?

Like I said there are worse examples of Luddism. The movie is fairly mediocre even in that.

Generations and Nemesis may have been mediocre Trek movies that didn't do the TNG series at its best much justice, however at least we had Picard's crew actively saving billions of lives from unambigiously evil madmen, instead of denying increased longevity to the entire UFP while keeping a straight face to please some sanctimonious luddites selfishly sitting on the fountain of youth.

I see it as resembling Avatar and the debate over that, actually. As in, yes there could be lots of benefit to a larger society but at the end of the day the planet and it's resources belong to the people who live there and taking it against their will is wrong.

Yes, they're extremely sanctimonious, but this does not give anyone the right to perform injustices against him. I have a neighbor who is a smug asshole, and I'm not going to take his fancy snow-blower and make it communal property, no matter the benefit to the neighborhood or how personally undeserving I consider him.

The Turnip of Mass Destruction!

Ahriman238 wrote: I have a neighbor who is a smug asshole, and I'm not going to take his fancy snow-blower and make it communal property, no matter the benefit to the neighborhood or how personally undeserving I consider him.

The difference is that a snow-blower saves me a few hours of time shoveling my driveway, while the magic radiation saves me from dying or being maimed for life. The difference in sheer benefit wrecks your comparison.

Ahriman238 wrote:

I have a neighbor who is a smug asshole, and I'm not going to take his fancy snow-blower and make it communal property, no matter the benefit to the neighborhood or how personally undeserving I consider him.

The difference is that a snow-blower saves me a few hours of time shoveling my driveway, while the magic radiation saves me from dying or being maimed for life. The difference in sheer benefit wrecks your comparison.

Does it?

I'm not being sarcastic or facietious or anything, I really want to know what you think.

The way I see it, theft is wrong. It is harmful to others, and that harm will tend to sour any benefit to you, on any scale. It was wrong for the Federation to try and relocate six hundred Baku, and it would have been just as wrong for six million, it would have been just as wrong for one.

I don't expect everyone here to subscribe to my particular brand of moral absolutism. I don't even really expect the Federation to. As a prominent member of said Federation once said "Logic suggests that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" a quote that would later be thrown at the heroes during the whole Marquis arc. What you had there was the Federation intentionally screwing over a number of their own citizens to purchase peace for the Federation as a whole.

But even the staunchest defender of moral relativsm or consequentialism would admit to the need for a line somewhere, to moral compromises you can never make. Even Machiavelli said that your schemes should never go so far as to damage public faith in you, because by that point they will cause more harm than good.

So where is the line here? Where is the value between a few hours less shoveling and increased longevity for billions, that makes it alright to destroy a small community? How many Baku would it take for even those dizzying medical benefits to simply not be worth it?

I wonder where the Baku draw the line on technology. Using iron tools instead of bronze tools represents a technological advance. Hell, using a shovel instead of digging with your hands is, when you get right down to it, using a machine to do the work of a man.

Ahriman238 wrote: Does it?

I'm not being sarcastic or facietious or anything, I really want to know what you think.

The way I see it, theft is wrong. It is harmful to others, and that harm will tend to sour any benefit to you, on any scale. It was wrong for the Federation to try and relocate six hundred Baku, and it would have been just as wrong for six million, it would have been just as wrong for one.

I don't expect everyone here to subscribe to my particular brand of moral absolutism. I don't even really expect the Federation to. As a prominent member of said Federation once said "Logic suggests that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" a quote that would later be thrown at the heroes during the whole Marquis arc. What you had there was the Federation intentionally screwing over a number of their own citizens to purchase peace for the Federation as a whole.

But even the staunchest defender of moral relativsm or consequentialism would admit to the need for a line somewhere, to moral compromises you can never make. Even Machiavelli said that your schemes should never go so far as to damage public faith in you, because by that point they will cause more harm than good.

So where is the line here? Where is the value between a few hours less shoveling and increased longevity for billions, that makes it alright to destroy a small community? How many Baku would it take for even those dizzying medical benefits to simply not be worth it?

I value people more than property, and I value society more than individuals. This isn't an absolute thing, just in general. I don't subscribe to your absolutism, so relocating one person is less wrong than 600 which is less wrong than 6 million. Try to maximize the good and minimize the harm, that's about as close as I get to a moral system.

So where is the line? Probably where more Baku are harmed by losing their longevity than people who would significantly benefit from the magic radiation treatments. That would likely be a very, very crowded planet. I don't think I can get more detailed simply due to how vaguely defined the magic radiation and it's treatments are.

My problem with the Baku relocation is that they're trying to do it without even telling them, or informing them that they're as of probably the moment the Feds figured out their planet was useful a Federation member, congratulations! Unfortunately, for the good of the Federation we have to move you offplanet. Relocations far more massive than that have been done in human history, and to citizens of what we tend to consider civilized countries. What made the whole operation look like a nefarious evil plot wasn't the relocation as such, which as others have pointed out would at worst cost those 600 or so Baku their longevity (and as Starfleet and the So'na apparently expect the New and Improved metaphasic particles to give longevity to everybody I don't see why the Baku couldn't profit from it too), but the fact that Starfleet treated it as one. Officially annex the planet (they already claim it's Federation property anyway so that's not much of a stretch), move the Baku elsewhere, problem solved. Instead, they went with the bullshit approach we saw in the movie.

You know, I still wish we'd gotten the darker, more Apocalypse...Now! approach that Piller was originally going for.

Overall, yeah that'd be a better film, but people would no doubt be complaining about the 'darkness' and saying that it tarnishes the franchise

And could you imagine how much "better" Nemesis would be as a result.




All the more B-4 to love!

...don't forget a longer wedding scene, with more light hearted "Mr. Troi" humor sprinkled throughout the film.