Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

[JasonB]

I am interest theory how the Klingon Empire basic was able two decades bloody battle with UFP were able bring UFP down to it knees. While Worf Bother in Kurn member Klingon high Council . Some one known great deal classified information Klingon Empire. Worf likley great deal himself open state Klingon Empire not stand chance against UFP. This after Klingon Empire nearly century of peace with UFP. I like hear some theory how Klingon Empire was winning.

Here few theory own first possible the UFP surrender Klingon because UFP also having deal Borg or something worst and UFP known they unlikely able win against both.
Theory two the Klingon Empire took over must major powers UFP last once standing. This theory back more by fact that big part Koval family kill during Klingon raid. Suggestion Romulan star Empire the Klingon were at war were having fire fight against each other .

[FaxModem1]

Woodchuck honey rambo seed.

You clear up your sentences, I'll clear up mine.

[The Romulan Republic]

For an attempt at a serious answer: both your scenarios are plausible, but there's no solid evidence to back them up so far as I know.

[FedRebel]

Remember the Point of departure for that timeline was Narendra III, and in the default timeline the Enterprise C coming to the aid of a Klingon outpost motivated the Klingons to see the Federation as an ally rather than an adversary

With A Romulan Empire entering a stage of isolation and the Federation as a friend whom can be counted on to intercede on the side of the Klingons, the Empire probably reduced its military capability so it can more quickly and comfortably recover from the long term consequences of the Praxis incident

In the Yesterday's timeline the E-C "ran away" and the Romulans were subsequently victorious. This alternate Empire had a greater desire to stand on its own regardless of the economic and resource penalties, and as a consequence of maintaining a larger military the Klingon Empire ran into economic/resource problems.

The only remedy is to acquire more resources, but when your territory is bordered by two other empires your options are limited. With that in mind, the Romulans are so isolated that invading them is a bad move (no Intel is always bad Intel), so why not an old enemy, and thusly the Klingons went to war with the Federation.

The comparatively larger force they maintained as a result of "Federation cowardliness" is large enough to overwhelm Starfleet through attrition

[Gandalf]

In answer to the OP, perhaps the Klingons managed to pull off a Pearl Harbour style attack (or attacks) that slowed down Starfleet's ability to do whatever it needed to do to not get conquered.

As for why they went to war, maybe the following occurred in the High Council:
Klingon 1: "The Federation are totally cowards, look at Narendra III!"
Klingon 2: "Yeah. we can take 'em!"

[Stofsk]

I always thought it was implied that the romulans engineered things between the two to get them to go to war with each other. It strikes me as odd that Narendra III happened and the klingons chose to go to war with the Federation. If they knew it was the romulans who attacked them it would be logical to assume they would go to war with the romulans instead, surely?

[mr friendly guy]

I think it was in the episode Birthright, we see that Gowron appeared to be losing to the Duras family during the Klingon civil war. This was because the Romulans kept on supplying the Duras side with resources. Presumably if the Romulans were intervening via cloaked ships, it could give the Klingons another edge. With the Federation resources and Klingon resources depleted, the Romulans can still supply the Empire so that the Klingons could keep on fighting.

Considering IIRC that at ST 6 (from the novelisation) the cool headed Klingons did not think the Empire even with the Romulans could defeat the Federation (so at a best case scenario, the war ends in stalemate), I think the Klingons either must have much larger territory or they simply had help.

[Skylon]

Considering IIRC that at ST 6 (from the novelisation) the cool headed Klingons did not think the Empire even with the Romulans could defeat the Federation (so at a best case scenario, the war ends in stalemate), I think the Klingons either must have much larger territory or they simply had help.

Well, the real issue is ST 6 hadn't been released yet, when "Yesterday's Enterprise" aired. However, one possibility is the UFP began to draw down its military after Khitomer (something mentioned in dialogue during ST 6, when one of the Admirals asks "are we mothballing the Starfleet?") That movie is set like 40 years before the Nerendra III incident. Plenty of time to put the UFP in a weaker position than it may have been during the cold war with the Klingons.

[JasonB]

Considering IIRC that at ST 6 (from the novelisation) the cool headed Klingons did not think the Empire even with the Romulans could defeat the Federation (so at a best case scenario, the war ends in stalemate), I think the Klingons either must have much larger territory or they simply had help.

Well, the real issue is ST 6 hadn't been released yet, when "Yesterday's Enterprise" aired. However, one possibility is the UFP began to draw down its military after Khitomer (something mentioned in dialogue during ST 6, when one of the Admirals asks "are we mothballing the Starfleet?") That movie is set like 40 years before the Nerendra III incident. Plenty of time to put the UFP in a weaker position than it may have been during the cold war with the Klingons.[/qu

DS9 UFP raped the Klingon Empire when war started to make simple. Both Worf and his bother know win war the UFP. So that say Klingon Empire at least for must TNG not had chance wining against UFP. Suggestion Klingon Empire as far I can tell must likely Empire taken over must major powers if not all them.

[FaxModem1]

Wait, when was it established that the Klingons were losing against the Federation in their conquest of the Cardassians?

[Darth Fanboy]

One word bat'leth

Klingon da'har masters easly beat upf goldshirts so they beam aboard and take over ships and in alt teimline more daa'har masters tained cos of war. Then federation has to rebuild the MACOs to win back lost terrtory. It is good example of how swords are still imporant.

But I think Data is good counter so why upf not build more datas to counter? Easy they cant peogram for sword

[lord Martiya]

They didn't knew how Data had been built. But on how the Klingon were winning... I think it's a combination of a few factors:
1)Starfleet being reduced in size, thus being weaker than needed, at least in the beginning;
2)the Klingon had Romulan help, possibly by saboteurs (remember, Romulans look a lot like Vulcans, enough to fool most scans, and can go anywhere placing bombs);
3)those pesky Cardassians, Tzenkethi and Talarians drawing ships away from the Klingon front. The absence of their mention in Yesterday's Enterprise could be explained with Starfleet utterly defeating them (from what we've seen, the Cardassians were still weaker than Federation and the Talarians would have been outclassed by the goddamned KAZON), but the losses in defeating them (particularly Cardassians and, maybe, the Tzenkethi) would have been heavy enough to give the Klingon a decisive advantage.

[Darth Fanboy]

They didn't knew how Data had been built. But on how the Klingon were winning... I think it's a combination of a few factors:

But Yesterday Enterprise UPF in wartime mode scientists more motivate to make a Data.

1)Starfleet being reduced in size, thus being weaker than needed, at least in the beginning;

UPF mothball fleet can easy be put back to service use cloning to make more offisers.

2)the Klingon had Romulan help, possibly by saboteurs (remember, Romulans look a lot like Vulcans, enough to fool most scans, and can go anywhere placing bombs);

Klingons Romulans haet each other because of Kitomer they killed Worf parents.

3)those pesky Cardassians, Tzenkethi and Talarians drawing ships away from the Klingon front. The absence of their mention in Yesterday's Enterprise could be explained with Starfleet utterly defeating them (from what we've seen, the Cardassians were still weaker than Federation and the Talarians would have been outclassed by the goddamned KAZON), but the losses in defeating them (particularly Cardassians and, maybe, the Tzenkethi) would have been heavy enough to give the Klingon a decisive advantage.

Starfleet would probly make a peace though to have more allies fight Klingon your idae no maek sense.

[lord Martiya]

But Yesterday Enterprise UPF in wartime mode scientists more motivate to make a Data.

Research take time and resources, and with a space war quantum torpedoes and pulse phasers would be a greater priority than Data. Plus, the very fact we didn't see more Data prove they still didn't know how.

UPF mothball fleet can easy be put back to service use cloning to make more offisers.

Not so easy. Do I need to remember you that during the first Borg invasion 39 ships were considered a grave loss? And they had more than a year to prepare. About the clones... No clones seen in the Dominion War, sorry.

Klingons Romulans haet each other because of Kitomer they killed Worf parents.

Apart the fact that Narendra III was attacked in 2344 and Khitomer in 2346, Romulans and Klingon already hated each other. And nobody need to know the Romulans were helping. Plus, it would be in Romulan interest if the Federation and the Klingon weakened each other.

Starfleet would probly make a peace though to have more allies fight Klingon your idae no maek sense.

Sure, the Federation would try, but who said they'd accept? It's not in their interest, after all, the Federation was a common enemy that could defeat each of them alone. Also, before making peace Starfleet would need to fight, and that means losses and less starships to fight the major enemy, the Klingon Empire.

[JME2]

The novels Serpent Among the Ruins and The Art of the Impossible shows what led to the geo-political situation circa the Battle of Narendra III -- and how it could have led to the alternate future.

It's been a while since I read the novels, so I apologize if I get any details wrong.

Following the events of the Tomed Incident, Klingon politics takes a backwards plunge as Azetbur is assassinated. Her successors, very conservative traditionalists, rollback most of the progressive, post-Khitomer policies. Federation aid and relations takes a hit and since the Klingons aren't as strong as pre-Praxis levels, the Klingon economy is stuck in third gear.

It's only once the Klingons get into a cold war with the Cardassians (following the Betreka Nebula Incident mentioned in DS9's "The Way of the Warrior") that the Klingon war machine gets back into full gear. This however, only worsens tensions with the UFP, who are obviously worried at the Klingons' massive rearmament. Starfleet's resources are already split on the Cardassians' expansion -- which leads to the eventual border wars.

Narendra III changes everything. The attack reminds the Klingons that the isolationist Romulans are still a threat -- they've also been fanning the Klingon-Cardassia Cold War --and that having the Romulans' other rival as an ally is a very good idea.

[Kuja]

I always thought it was implied that the romulans engineered things between the two to get them to go to war with each other. It strikes me as odd that Narendra III happened and the klingons chose to go to war with the Federation. If they knew it was the romulans who attacked them it would be logical to assume they would go to war with the romulans instead, surely?

If I recall correctly, Narendra III wasn't used as a reason for the war, but the absence of the Enterprise C removed a crucial turning point in Klingon/Federation relations.

Specifically, prior to Narendra III tensions had been mounting between the two, with war looking more and more likely. However, when the Enterprise C was destroyed answering the Klingon colony's distress call, it caused many members of the Empire to back off and view the Federation in a more respectful light, seeing the E-C's destruction as a heroic and selfless sacrifice.

Except in the alternate timeline, that never happened because the E-C fell into the time portal. As a result, relations just continued to deteriorate until war finally broke out.

[Darth Fanboy]

Research take time and resources, and with a space war quantum torpedoes and pulse phasers would be a greater priority than Data. Plus, the very fact we didn't see more Data prove they still didn't know how.

You easy forget UFP bild exocomps excomps can build datas and give hueg advatang

Not so easy. Do I need to remember you that during the first Borg invasion 39 ships were considered a grave loss? And they had more than a year to prepare. About the clones... No clones seen in the Dominion War, sorry.

UPF hav many clones u just dont see them they are also MACOs. Also 39 ships was much for first borg invasion but UPF not at war wartime UPF will have ten times many shipz

Apart the fact that Narendra III was attacked in 2344 and Khitomer in 2346, Romulans and Klingon already hated each other. And nobody need to know the Romulans were helping. Plus, it would be in Romulan interest if the Federation and the Klingon weakened each other.

Except Klingon proud warrior (but not teh duraz) so they will not say to Romulan a peace

Sure, the Federation would try, but who said they'd accept? It's not in their interest, after all, the Federation was a common enemy that could defeat each of them alone. Also, before making peace Starfleet would need to fight, and that means losses and less starships to fight the major enemy, the Klingon Empire.

Not a problem exocomps

[lord Martiya]

You easy forget UFP bild exocomps excomps can build datas and give hueg advatang

And you forget that the Exocomp have NOT been mass-produced, nor their technology was used to reproduce Data's brain. Also, the Exocomp proved themselves to be only good repairbots and somehow sentient, nothing else. And, as a final nail in your argument, the years in which they were developed are the years where we have this Klingon-UFP war and the Federation would be more interested in superior firepower.

UPF hav many clones u just dont see them they are also MACOs.

Well, tell me the episode they USED clone troopers. For as far I know, the only ones who used clones in war were the Dominion, who in fact had a clone army, and the Romulans, who limited themselves at using a Picard clone as general. Oh, and since when Starfleet had MACO in TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY?

Also 39 ships was much for first borg invasion but UPF not at war wartime UPF will have ten times many shipz

And need time, and items, to reactivate them.

Except Klingon proud warrior (but not teh duraz) so they will not say to Romulan a peace

Repeat, the Klingon DON'T NEED TO KNOW. They just need to know the shields of the Starbase they were attacking collapsed exactly when they opened fire and that the torpedo magazine on the enemy flagship blew up with no apparent cause, and they'll rationalize it's because the enemy is incompetent.

Not a problem exocomps

Explain how those repairbot would be useful in battling even the Talarians.

[JasonB]

Only real hard cannon evidence we have of MACO in TOS is Colonel West form Star Trek undiscovered country. http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/West

Beyond only real evidence something like MACO existed is fact some piece military equipment seem most likely used special forces like the TR-116 rifle seem design for special force us. Main advance of rifle over phaser or blasters is stealth surprising both Star War Empire and UFP seem choose weapons easily get location and shot back you. Fact we hard personal force fields , photon granades weapons part starfleet arsenal never see used. It possible only used special forces like MACO I am not say true or not.

[lord Martiya]

Then why weren't they used at AR-558?

[Darth Fanboy]

And you forget that the Exocomp have NOT been mass-produced, nor their technology was used to reproduce Data's brain. Also, the Exocomp proved themselves to be only good repairbots and somehow sentient, nothing else. And, as a final nail in your argument, the years in which they were developed are the years where we have this Klingon-UFP war and the Federation would be more interested in superior firepower.

Ah but u forgot that UPF at war will need all advaetage thay can get so maek exocomps more attractive to mass produc they will do it. they can repair and fix and maek new datas android army can be ground forces and man fleet of defiants

Well, tell me the episode they USED clone troopers. For as far I know, the only ones who used clones in war were the Dominion, who in fact had a clone army, and the Romulans, who limited themselves at using a Picard clone as general. Oh, and since when Starfleet had MACO in TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY?

Reiker maed clone from transporter so transporter can maek clones of MACOS

And need time, and items, to reactivate them.

Exocomps = less teim

Repeat, the Klingon DON'T NEED TO KNOW. They just need to know the shields of the Starbase they were attacking collapsed exactly when they opened fire and that the torpedo magazine on the enemy flagship blew up with no apparent cause, and they'll rationalize it's because the enemy is incompetent.

But u forget that Worf will work for UPF and giv them intel because he and Picard are frends

Explain how those repairbot would be useful in battling even the Talarians.

Exocomp evolv many generations in hours so they add phasers probably mini photon torpodo too I also think that darmok and gilad at tanagra can help picard.

[Darth Fanboy]

Then why weren't they used at AR-558?

Section 31 exocomps

[lord Martiya]

Ah but u forgot that UPF at war will need all advaetage thay can get so maek exocomps more attractive to mass produc they will do it. they can repair and fix and maek new datas android army can be ground forces and man fleet of defiants

It seems you forgot a few things:
1)exocomps have been developed as repairbots of a new mining technology, a technology the Federation won't see the need when compared to the need of destroying the Klingon hordes. So, no particle fountain nor exocomps for its mainteinance;
2)the Federation has no idea on how to make a Data. Maybe the Romulans do (we don't know what they were doing with B4, but they could have dismantled and reverse-engineered it), but the Federation doesn't;
3)we don't know if the Federation would spare the resources to work out the design flaws that had initially made the Defiant-class a failure.

Reiker maed clone from transporter so transporter can maek clones of MACOS

Missing the point. When the Federation EVER used clone troopers? Or even mass-produced clones? Or even used MACO? Little hint: the answer to all questions is five letters, starts with 'n' and ends in 'ever'.

Exocomps = less teim

Did they develope them? Nope. And reactivate those ships would still need months, at least the ships that CAN be reactivated (a few of them will find themselves without some needed equipment and be cannibalized).

But u forget that Worf will work for UPF and giv them intel because he and Picard are frends

In this timeline, Klingon and UFP went at war before Worf was adopted by humans, so nope. For what we know, he could have been in command of one of the ships that attacked the Enterprise-D in the episode.

Exocomp evolv many generations in hours so they add phasers probably mini photon torpodo too

Prove that they would be developed and mass-produced, then prove they can evolve so fast, and then prove how a photon torpedo small enough to be fit in one of those could harm a starship.

I also think that darmok and gilad at tanagra can help picard.

Why would the Children of Tamara be interested into helping somebody they can't even SPEAK with?

Section 31 exocomps

Explain how this thing you just made up explain the fact MACOs were not used in the ground battle at AR-558.

[Darth Fanboy]

It seems you forgot a few things:
1)exocomps have been developed as repairbots of a new mining technology, a technology the Federation won't see the need when compared to the need of destroying the Klingon hordes. So, no particle fountain nor exocomps for its mainteinance;
2)the Federation has no idea on how to make a Data. Maybe the Romulans do (we don't know what they were doing with B4, but they could have dismantled and reverse-engineered it), but the Federation doesn't;
3)we don't know if the Federation would spare the resources to work out the design flaws that had initially made the Defiant-class a failure.

Ah but you ignor fact that UPF needs mining too maek defiants and datas to win war so exocomps. But also in war Dr soong will join UPF an be a PARTIOT to help federation and build Android MACOs. Defiant not failer because it beet dominon

Missing the point. When the Federation EVER used clone troopers? Or even mass-produced clones? Or even used MACO? Little hint: the answer to all questions is five letters, starts with 'n' and ends in 'ever'.

Ah but UPF in battel culd do these they would try instead of peaseful exploring b e best starship battelers

In this timeline, Klingon and UFP went at war before Worf was adopted by humans, so nope. For what we know, he could have been in command of one of the ships that attacked the Enterprise-D in the episode.

Teh respeckt they had in origiial timline does not go away Worf help Picard leik his ansestor lawyer for Kirk.

Prove that they would be developed and mass-produced, then prove they can evolve so fast, and then prove how a photon torpedo small enough to be fit in one of those could harm a starship.

Eazy did u see epusode? They evolv fasterer than people in weeks they would elvolvs moar in order to maek Exocomp IIs Section 31 helps this.

Why would the Children of Tamara be interested into helping somebody they can't even SPEAK with?

Becauz Picard gets them on there team.

Explain how this thing you just made up explain the fact MACOs were not used in the ground battle at AR-558.

Section 31 sekret MACOs and Exocomps won other battels in other spaeces just leik in my fanfic

[JasonB]

Then why weren't they used at AR-558?

I can think few reason

1. possible at least Enterprise came take area or stike enemy territory MACO seem advance of normal UFP security. Came hold ground UFP able job just fine. IF UFP limit number MACO might us kind commandos take areas leave either Gold shirts or normal foot soldiers hold. Smart commanders do not wast commandos jobs that normal foot soldiers can do the same job even if did little less effective.
2. UFP might need else were some more important ground mission and maybe fighting beside Klingon behind enemy lines.

3. It possible were used on AR-558 all died action duty before hero arrive or just show screen.

Also I want remind you that we known in TOS the UFP had MACO commandos thank fact we saw Colonel West Star Terk undiscovered country. How time Kirk used these kinds guys and did not have them. In Star Terk 5 rescue hostage these type guy want have around.

As for fact UFP fleet arrived the Klingon fleet retreats also form what known Klingon Empire no match UFP. Worf open stated bother node Klingon Empire stand chance against UFP. As Romulan star Empire form what them resource issues own just back Klingon give supplies cival war hardly show much stronger anything weaker. By fact Romulan Star Empire must Dominion war fighting and heavy weaken last year war. Oda state Romulan no shape rage war anyone and after link talk Female shapshifter into surrendering. Showing UFP stronger Romulan star Empire and Klingon Empire put together since able basic walk right war still be full strength less few years UFP shape to prevent both Romulan Star Empire and Klingon Empire start war Dominion. Romulan depend on mining place call Remus.