Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
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Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
I recently watched Best of Both Worlds that happened to be on TV (BBC-America rapidly becoming a channel I watch most often) and it struck me as I'm watching that they never really explain why the Borg had such a hard on for abducting and assimilating Picard.
In the first part of the episode the cube spends an inordinate amount of time fighting the Enterprise - a counter point to the Battle of Wolf 359 where it is implied they take out 39 ships in a very short amount of time, and in the DS9 Pilot we see the cube one shot killing some starships like the Melbourne, an Excelsior class vessel. - and playing cat and mouse with it in the end just to abduct Picard. As soon as they have him do they blow up the Enterprise? No.
They run away. So, why would they expend so much effort and time to assimilate him?
Is it because his strategic genius was needed to defeat the Federation defenses?
Well, Picard never struck me as the strategic genius type. But all that aside why would they need his strategic genius if they outclass anything the Federation can muster? The Battle of Wolf 359 proved that a single Borg cube was not even threatened by the fleet assets assembled against it. A point repeated again in First Contact when a single Borg cube makes it to Earth after a running battle through several sectors under constant attack from a Federation fleet that is at least prepared and probably optimized to fight the Borg. (the Defiant for example, a ship specifically designed to fight the Borg, was amongst their number) Granted it was heavily damaged but really only defeated by the timely arrival of the Ent-E and Picard.
Is it because of Picard's intimate knowledge of Earth defenses?
Well, again, looking at the results of Wolf 359 and also buttressed by the events of First Contact I don't think the Borg should be worried about Earth's defenses. And even if they were - why not assimilate the Admiral leading the attack on 359 who likely has higher levels and more up to date knowledge of those defenses and plans? Hell, Commander Shelby has a better idea of Borg countermeasures than Picard does.
Is it because Picard has an intimate knowlege of Federation technology and starships?
Maybe, but wouldn't Geordie then have been a better choice? And we still go back to why the Borg need any additional advatages when its very obvious they outclass anything the Federation can field. Especially when assimilating Picard took such time and effort with very little apparent payoff. And they did not destroy the greatest tactical threat to them in the Federation fleet when they had the chance.
Is it because Picard can be a psuedo-leader a la the Queen Borg?
Well...aside from the fact there was no Queen at the time of BOBW but still working within the canon framework, why DO the Borg need a Queen figurehead for this attack. Again, the point returns that a retarded monkey could have led the Borg cube to victory against the Federation at that time, and what is the point of a Collective if the Queen can't lead and control them from a far?
Why?
The question is laid out to you. Just why did the Borg expend such resources and time to assimilate Picard when they had every advantage and there were more likely and better suited candidates to assimilate?
In the first part of the episode the cube spends an inordinate amount of time fighting the Enterprise - a counter point to the Battle of Wolf 359 where it is implied they take out 39 ships in a very short amount of time, and in the DS9 Pilot we see the cube one shot killing some starships like the Melbourne, an Excelsior class vessel. - and playing cat and mouse with it in the end just to abduct Picard. As soon as they have him do they blow up the Enterprise? No.
They run away. So, why would they expend so much effort and time to assimilate him?
Is it because his strategic genius was needed to defeat the Federation defenses?
Well, Picard never struck me as the strategic genius type. But all that aside why would they need his strategic genius if they outclass anything the Federation can muster? The Battle of Wolf 359 proved that a single Borg cube was not even threatened by the fleet assets assembled against it. A point repeated again in First Contact when a single Borg cube makes it to Earth after a running battle through several sectors under constant attack from a Federation fleet that is at least prepared and probably optimized to fight the Borg. (the Defiant for example, a ship specifically designed to fight the Borg, was amongst their number) Granted it was heavily damaged but really only defeated by the timely arrival of the Ent-E and Picard.
Is it because of Picard's intimate knowledge of Earth defenses?
Well, again, looking at the results of Wolf 359 and also buttressed by the events of First Contact I don't think the Borg should be worried about Earth's defenses. And even if they were - why not assimilate the Admiral leading the attack on 359 who likely has higher levels and more up to date knowledge of those defenses and plans? Hell, Commander Shelby has a better idea of Borg countermeasures than Picard does.
Is it because Picard has an intimate knowlege of Federation technology and starships?
Maybe, but wouldn't Geordie then have been a better choice? And we still go back to why the Borg need any additional advatages when its very obvious they outclass anything the Federation can field. Especially when assimilating Picard took such time and effort with very little apparent payoff. And they did not destroy the greatest tactical threat to them in the Federation fleet when they had the chance.
Is it because Picard can be a psuedo-leader a la the Queen Borg?
Well...aside from the fact there was no Queen at the time of BOBW but still working within the canon framework, why DO the Borg need a Queen figurehead for this attack. Again, the point returns that a retarded monkey could have led the Borg cube to victory against the Federation at that time, and what is the point of a Collective if the Queen can't lead and control them from a far?
Why?
The question is laid out to you. Just why did the Borg expend such resources and time to assimilate Picard when they had every advantage and there were more likely and better suited candidates to assimilate?
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
It strongly implied that the Picard's knowledge was a vital component in the Borg's victory at Wolf 359. Mostly due to having knowledge of Federation Battle tactics. First contact does show that a Federation fleet can wear down a single Borg cube over a prolonged battle. Also there was the fact that Borg did not know the size and composition of the Federation defenses until they assimilated Picard.
The one benefit of Picard being assimilated is that the cube would've been reduced to a cloud of vapor by the Enterprise's deflector weapon had Picard not given the Borg his knowledge of the plan.
The one benefit of Picard being assimilated is that the cube would've been reduced to a cloud of vapor by the Enterprise's deflector weapon had Picard not given the Borg his knowledge of the plan.
Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
Perhaps they felt Picard was an outlier, due to encountering him so far away in "Q, Who?"? Not only did they want the technology that the Enterprise represented, but the information in it's commander's mind that allowed it to (in the Borg's mind) avoid detection in the Delta Quadrant for so long?
EDIT - it would also explain why they just fled after taking him. They always ignored what wasn't a direct threat to them, so once they battered down the Enterprise's defenses and took their prize, there was no reason to waste their time on finishing off the ship (granted this was before they devolved into lousy space vampires with a spiteful leader).
EDIT - it would also explain why they just fled after taking him. They always ignored what wasn't a direct threat to them, so once they battered down the Enterprise's defenses and took their prize, there was no reason to waste their time on finishing off the ship (granted this was before they devolved into lousy space vampires with a spiteful leader).
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
The focus on the humanity part is actually in direct contradiction of their introductory episode where Q points out that the only thing that the Borg care about is technology. With that in mind assimilating the Enterprise made way more sense than assimilating Picard. Apparently they made a radical change in their methods and culture between seasons.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
There was all the wank about the Picard Maneuver (and it being required reading in Starfleet Academy). We were supposed to think he was a strateic genius type!Stravo wrote:Well, Picard never struck me as the strategic genius type.
UFP regulations demand that you watch The Battle repeatedly until your reeducation takes effect!
Personally, I lean strongly towards the theory that Picard was required for cultural reasons more than military ones. The very name Locutus implied to me that he was intended as a mouthpiece for the Borg to address humanity with. They might as well have called him Speaker-to-Humans.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
Picard is the Captain of the flagship of the Federation. A highly prestigious position onboard a ship that has a distinguished history.
Wrecking the E-D, taking their captain and turning him against the Federation would be a prime way of driving the "Resistance is Futile" point home. Picard's SPECIFIC military knowledge might be subpar compared to an engineer but his overall knowledge would still be vaulable. The Academy training, the kind of 'secret' orders Starfleet dish out I.E Omega Directive and the general summary of potential fleet deployments, make up and ship identification would all be worth having.
Picard might not be able to tell them how many torpedoes a Nebula class has but ripping out the knowledge that Starfleet was still unprepared against the Borg would be more than worth the effort. Picard and Co. gave the Cube a big spiel about the Federation being ready for the Borg, Borg take Picard, rape his mind and find out he was bullshitting.
Assimilating Picard makes for a good tactical and moral blow against the Feds. Based on what they were doing, the Borg thought taking Earth would break the spine of the Feds and make them fall into line with their own 'best of humanity flying the Federation Flagship" telling them they are fucked. I wouldnt be surprised if it had something to do with Q either.
Q obviously has an interest in Picard and thus the Borg assimilate him to figure out why either as a means of assimilating the Q or figuring out what actually happend in Q'Who.
Wrecking the E-D, taking their captain and turning him against the Federation would be a prime way of driving the "Resistance is Futile" point home. Picard's SPECIFIC military knowledge might be subpar compared to an engineer but his overall knowledge would still be vaulable. The Academy training, the kind of 'secret' orders Starfleet dish out I.E Omega Directive and the general summary of potential fleet deployments, make up and ship identification would all be worth having.
Picard might not be able to tell them how many torpedoes a Nebula class has but ripping out the knowledge that Starfleet was still unprepared against the Borg would be more than worth the effort. Picard and Co. gave the Cube a big spiel about the Federation being ready for the Borg, Borg take Picard, rape his mind and find out he was bullshitting.
Assimilating Picard makes for a good tactical and moral blow against the Feds. Based on what they were doing, the Borg thought taking Earth would break the spine of the Feds and make them fall into line with their own 'best of humanity flying the Federation Flagship" telling them they are fucked. I wouldnt be surprised if it had something to do with Q either.
Q obviously has an interest in Picard and thus the Borg assimilate him to figure out why either as a means of assimilating the Q or figuring out what actually happend in Q'Who.
Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
But the Borg don't give a shit about morale. They just want Starfleet's technology, and they know Starfleet can't stop them. They shouldn't care about a surrender, because they can take whatever they want at their leisure. One Cube knocked Starfleet on its ass. This could be why Starfleet was apparently so low priority to the Collective that they only sent one ship. The technology they scanned in "Q, Who?" was nifty and branched differently than their own, but the important stuff, power generation and projection, defense, etc., wasn't up to par.
But regarding Picard, the Collective KNEW who he was, and KNEW that his flying technological snack had no business being in the Delta Quadrant, and the answers to some secret technology could have been locked in his puny brain, hence they beelined for him. Think of John Crichton and his Wormhole tech from Farscape. Scoripus didn't give a fuck about him, just the technology locked in his mind, and pursued him until it was pried from his mind.
Perhaps keeping him as Locutus was an afterthought. Maybe the Borg thought his diplomatic training coupled with the AQ and BQ's history could have simply been factored into making Locutus was a trial to facilitate speedy assimilation? No other major powers in Star Trek coexist with the diplomatic channels that the AQ and BQ powers do (The Dominion is the only other real semi-galactic scale government, and they exist as a totalitarian state). Perhaps the Borg were going to try a one-shot attempt using Picard to see if they'd stand down. They used him at Wolf 359, it failed, so they proceeded with their stand-by tactic of "Blow up/tractor beam/scoop up what we want." I also can't remember if the Borg even gave a shit when the Enterprise crew took him back. I seem to remember the Borg just going "lol oh well" and proceeded towards Earth.
But regarding Picard, the Collective KNEW who he was, and KNEW that his flying technological snack had no business being in the Delta Quadrant, and the answers to some secret technology could have been locked in his puny brain, hence they beelined for him. Think of John Crichton and his Wormhole tech from Farscape. Scoripus didn't give a fuck about him, just the technology locked in his mind, and pursued him until it was pried from his mind.
Perhaps keeping him as Locutus was an afterthought. Maybe the Borg thought his diplomatic training coupled with the AQ and BQ's history could have simply been factored into making Locutus was a trial to facilitate speedy assimilation? No other major powers in Star Trek coexist with the diplomatic channels that the AQ and BQ powers do (The Dominion is the only other real semi-galactic scale government, and they exist as a totalitarian state). Perhaps the Borg were going to try a one-shot attempt using Picard to see if they'd stand down. They used him at Wolf 359, it failed, so they proceeded with their stand-by tactic of "Blow up/tractor beam/scoop up what we want." I also can't remember if the Borg even gave a shit when the Enterprise crew took him back. I seem to remember the Borg just going "lol oh well" and proceeded towards Earth.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
Pretty much. They didn't exactly let them take him. They even blew up the shuttle he was aboard, but then they decided "fuck it", and kept heading to Earth.NeoGoomba wrote: I also can't remember if the Borg even gave a shit when the Enterprise crew took him back. I seem to remember the Borg just going "lol oh well" and proceeded towards Earth.
Actually, that's a pretty big plot hole there - they'd disabled the Ent-D's saucer and if they were willing to destroy a shuttle to keep them from getting their hands on Locutus, why didn't they take the five minutes to just destroy the Ent-D there? They clearly had some worry about what Riker and company could gleam from Locutus, and given their hive mind the Borg certainly couldn't think: "Okay, we got him when we blew the shuttle up...let's go."
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
They could undoubtably have destroyed the saucer if it was disabled, but Riker could have withdrawn in the engineering section. The Borg could have run him down eventually, but it would have delayed the assimalation of Earth.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
To me, it was always implied that Picard's knowledge of Starfleet was in large part to blame for the one-sided battle at Wolf 359. Sisko's strong reaction to Picard in Emissary bears this out:
Sisko lost his wife on the Saratoga and it's fairly clear he blames Picard, and Picard's stunned face and coldness throughout the scene seems to be his admission that Picard blames himself too. The transcription of the scene doesn't do it justice, I really recommend tracking it down and watching these two marvelous actors say so much through tone, expression, and body language.[i]Emissary[/i] wrote:Sisko: "It's been a long time, Captain."
Picard: "Have we met before?"
Sisko: "Yes, sir. We met in battle. I was on the Saratoga at Wolf 359."
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
It's pretty clear Picard blames himself for it, but I fail to see how his knowledge would have made much in the way of difference at Wolf 359. He nixed the deflector dish of doom attack thanks to knowing a) they'd try it and b) how it worked (presumably), but the Feds at Wolf 359 did nothing but individually fire at random parts of the Cube as seen in 'Emissary', and the Borg could have happily ignored that without Picard's assistance.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
If you admit that Picard's knowledge nixed the deflector dish attack then how can it not be equally sensible his knowledge and experience gained would affect how the Borg proceeded. Simple information about the various ship captains and which ones to target to fracture the fleet chain of command would go a long way towards creating a situation where the Fed fleet becomes the shambles that was observed.
Even if Picard is being used for the most basic of threat assessments based on limited knowledge of ship classes, roles, captains and rank structure that can easily help the Borg stack the deck further in their favour.
The Borg go out of their way to target the flagship of the Federation and corrupt her captain
The Borg destroy the Admiral's ship at Wolf 359
Locutus states the Borg are focused on taking out Earth as a means of forcing a surrender
First Contact the Borg take out the Admiral's ship again.
Without leaders to tell the Feds to concentrate their firepower and organise resistance the Borg have a much easier time walking through them. Picard's knowledge of the Command structure alone and which captains are likely to assume command if another falls can give the Borg the ability to keep resistance fractured while they efficiently grind through them.
Even if Picard is being used for the most basic of threat assessments based on limited knowledge of ship classes, roles, captains and rank structure that can easily help the Borg stack the deck further in their favour.
The Borg go out of their way to target the flagship of the Federation and corrupt her captain
The Borg destroy the Admiral's ship at Wolf 359
Locutus states the Borg are focused on taking out Earth as a means of forcing a surrender
First Contact the Borg take out the Admiral's ship again.
Without leaders to tell the Feds to concentrate their firepower and organise resistance the Borg have a much easier time walking through them. Picard's knowledge of the Command structure alone and which captains are likely to assume command if another falls can give the Borg the ability to keep resistance fractured while they efficiently grind through them.
Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
Yes they did.Stravo wrote:I recently watched Best of Both Worlds that happened to be on TV (BBC-America rapidly becoming a channel I watch most often) and it struck me as I'm watching that they never really explain why the Borg had such a hard on for abducting and assimilating Picard.
For that matter, his name is Locutus. Latin for 'having spoken'. So they wanted him for that purpose. It follows that just anybody wouldn't do in this role, they would need someone who has high visibility - which is what they said earlier in the above scene, when they said that he commanded the strongest ship in the Federation fleet, and that he spoke for his people.Best of Both Worlds part 1 wrote:BORG
Your archaic cultures are
authority driven. To facilitate
our introduction into your
societies, it has been decided
that a human voice will speak for
us in all communications. You
have been chosen to be that voice.
I would argue that this was psychological warfare, taking a Starfleet Captain, and arguably one of the highest profile ones you could pick - veteran explorer and captain of the Starship Enterprise - and assimilating him would hurt the morale of Starfleet's personnel. Resistance is futile, etc. Also Picard as a Starfleet Captain had intelligence on Starfleet defences that the Borg would find useful - which is immediately confirmed in part 2, indeed Locutus outright says this.
Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
Yeah, it's in there. Picard gets a scene where he stands before the collective and hears the multitude of voices talk to him.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
We've never quite had sufficient info presented on what Starfleet and the Borg knew about each other, or about Q, prior to Q Who. Q claimed the Borg were only interested in technology but he could have been lying. Guinan suggested that they usually come in numbers larger than a single cube. This could have been based on relatively limited experience on her part. It is possible that the Borg have used the tactic of assimilating a major cultural figure in the past but we haven't seen it on screen. Finally, given that the interaction between Starfleet and the Borg includes time travel by both sides, it is possible that the Borg and Starfleet knew more about each other prior to Wolf 359 than was indicated on screen. The time travel aspect might have motivated the Borg to assimilate Picard and use him as a spokesperson.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
One idea that I've always thought might be a good explanation is that, while the Borg were primarily interested in technology, they might also be interested in useful minds to add to the collective. They might desire to assimilate great scientists, engineers, and who knows what else that might help them understand the universe better and add to their knowledge base. The average redshirts are probably nothing more than a source of spare drones, of interest only if they happen to need some, but Picard represents one of the best people in the Federation. Add in the fact that Q or some other superpowerful entity is clearly interested in him and his ship, and it would explain why the Borg decided to send a cube after having already scooped up several Federation (and Romulan) outposts and deciding they're not a terribly high priority. After seeing there was something odd with these people, they sent a single cube - not a huge resource investment, but one adequate for snatching any interesting humans and possibly assimilating much of Earth. It's entirely possible they weren't even planning on sticking around long enough for the Feds to mass a large enough fleet to kill the cube. "Your culture will adapt to service us" seems to imply that a culture will continue to exist independent of the Borg, but probably in a similar position as dogs and livestock are to humans - useful as a source of intellectual resources whenever they decide to swing by to harvest some, but ultimately not all that important.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
Well now, I didn't know you were here Sly.
I tend to agree that the whole 'Q' thing probably interested the Borg, and definitely accelerated their contact with the Federation.
Not sure if the idea of the borg really being interested in individuals is that consistant with anything past BOBW, but then, after BOBW they became a somewhat different animal anyway.
I tend to agree that the whole 'Q' thing probably interested the Borg, and definitely accelerated their contact with the Federation.
Not sure if the idea of the borg really being interested in individuals is that consistant with anything past BOBW, but then, after BOBW they became a somewhat different animal anyway.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
I think answer to get past Earth surface defense that Borg saw as a threat to their invasion plan. High ranking officer like Caption have the code so need assimilate some Caption or Admiral.
Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
Captain not Caption. A captain does not provide subtitles to conversations.JasonB wrote:I think answer to get past Earth surface defense that Borg saw as a threat to their invasion plan. High ranking officer like Caption have the code so need assimilate some Caption or Admiral.
*Captioning for today's away team mission is provided by Caption Picard. Derp Derp Derp.*
Plus, The Borg hardly needed to worry about any defenses Earth had because that one Cube had effortlessly gone through almost 40 ships and the Mars Defense ships before reaching Earth. Not once that a Cube managed to reach Earth but twice.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
I went digging through the entire canon database on the main site to answer a different question. In the process, I ran across this note, which says the vaunted Mars Defense Perimeter consisted of a grand total of three unmanned defense pods. Even if we accept the most generous range estimates for photon torpedoes and Type 8 phasers, that's not even enough coverage to reliably take out rogue asteroids. Nor does it stop a ship from approaching Earth at a weird angle, like from straight "up" relative to the ecliptic.Enigma wrote:Plus, The Borg hardly needed to worry about any defenses Earth had because that one Cube had effortlessly gone through almost 40 ships and the Mars Defense ships before reaching Earth. Not once that a Cube managed to reach Earth but twice.
No wonder the Federation scrambled so many warships to stop the Borg at Wolf 359: the Mars Defense Perimeter isn't worth jack.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
Oh jesus christ. That scene lasts for like ten seconds. There could have been a thousand of the fucking things before that scene, with another thousand after it, for all we know.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
And why would they reduce the number of defense units before the scene, then put them back to normal after? Does not make any sense whatsoever.Stofsk wrote:Oh jesus christ. That scene lasts for like ten seconds. There could have been a thousand of the fucking things before that scene, with another thousand after it, for all we know.
As far as the thinness of Sol's defenses, the only explanation that doesn't make Starfleet Command look like total incompetents is that every ship that would've been part of the Mars Defense Perimeter had been rushed to Wolf 359 and then destroyed.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
"We only saw three on screen" does not mean "there are only three," it means "there are at least three."StarSword wrote:And why would they reduce the number of defense units before the scene, then put them back to normal after? Does not make any sense whatsoever.Stofsk wrote:Oh jesus christ. That scene lasts for like ten seconds. There could have been a thousand of the fucking things before that scene, with another thousand after it, for all we know.
As far as the thinness of Sol's defenses, the only explanation that doesn't make Starfleet Command look like total incompetents is that every ship that would've been part of the Mars Defense Perimeter had been rushed to Wolf 359 and then destroyed.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
Hey, I only ever saw that episode once and don't remember all the details, so I'm just going by what Mike wrote.
Star Carrier by Ian Douglas: Analysis and Talkback
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The Vortex Empire: I think the real question is obviously how a supervolcano eruption wiping out vast swathes of the country would affect the 2016 election.
Borgholio: The GOP would blame Obama and use the subsequent nuclear winter to debunk global warming.
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Re: Why did the Borg need Picard (BoBW)?
However, it also means 'we have no clue how many, if any at all, and what kind, additional forces the Mars perimeter defenses incorporated' and I have to agree with StarSword on the defenses we saw being pretty pathetic from an in-universe perspective.Terralthra wrote:StarSword wrote: "We only saw three on screen" does not mean "there are only three," it means "there are at least three."
Given that the Borg went through the fleet at 359 pretty much like it wasn't there I doubt any credible defense force (as in believable to have been deployed at this point in Fed history) would have much in the way of difference (years later, when Starfleet intentionally upgunned to prepare for the Borg, a single Cube still pretty much bitchslapped Starfleet) but StarSword is right that we never see a credible defense force. Wee see those three-whatever they weres.
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'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'