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In Wrath of Khan, Saavik advises Kirk that under General order something or other, that when a ship isn't responding to comms, you should raise your shields.

The main reason the Reliant did so well against the Enterprise in the opening battle was because they were caught with their pants down, so what if they weren't? How would the battle go? How would things from that point on go, seeing as how Wrath of Khan influenced the events of III and IV, and had some impact on V and VI.

Khan would have gotten his ass kicked, the end.

His whole stratagem was to get in close, pretend to be just like any other ship, and cripple the Enterprise. If Kirk had listened to Saavick and raised shields before Khan could fire, this stratagem wouldn't have worked. We don't know what contingency plan Khan had available so we don't know how the events of the film would have unfolded from that point onward. In a fight between a non-crippled Enterprise vs the Reliant, I'm inclined to give it to the former.

Me too: Kirk's crew were recruits, but they were trained, and the Enterprise, as far I know, had simply more firepower.

I don't know of any way to compare the firepower of the two ships, but the Enterprise was an old design. Weighed against that, of course, is the above-mentioned training advantage, though Kahn did have some brainwashed Starfleet officers and seemed to have some idea how the tech. worked himself, so its probably not a huge gap. Plus, Kahn had at least some element of surprise. Kirk obviously has a better grasp of starship tactics, though.

I'd honestly say it could go either way.

How old is Reliant by comparison? The Constitution is a pretty old design by the time of TWOK. The E-Nil is not thanks to having been heavily refitted as per TMP.
Also, the 'Constitution' has a lot more volume meaning that given equal technology, it can mount more power generators/shield generators etc.

We don't quite know what the volume disparity means. Enterprise might well have more power generation, which might mean tougher shields and/or more powerful phasers. But we'd be speculating.

One thing that just occurred to me though is that Khan didn't even know about the override for remote control via entering the prefix code. If Kirk raises shields because he thinks Reliant's been hijacked he may employ the prefix trick anyway.

Batman wrote:How old is Reliant by comparison? The Constitution is a pretty old design by the time of TWOK. The E-Nil is not thanks to having been heavily refitted as per TMP.
Also, the 'Constitution' has a lot more volume meaning that given equal technology, it can mount more power generators/shield generators etc.

In the very next film, Starfleet decides to decommission rather than repair Enterprise because its a 20 year old ship.

It was a bit older than 20 years. Besides, it was heavily damaged by Khan's attack. I doubt age was the sole or primary reason for decommissioning her.

Actually Khan absolutely did, he just didn't know where it was.
Kirk using the prefix trick at this point relies on Khan for whatever reason opening two-way communications. That worked in the original movie because Khan wanted the Genesis data and thought he had Kirk beat. Not quite as likely if he actually has to duke it out the hard way.

That means she's behind the times, not that she's any more behind the times than Reliant.

Khan is shown to be horrible at starship combat, and without getting into Ent/Reliant comparisons I think it's pretty clear he'd lose a stand-up fight just as badly as he lost the battle in the nebula, unless his alpha dps is enough to get some critical damage in the first volley (or if his manouvring can get him an advantage - if he passes Enterprise and fires while alongside, as he did, he'd still have an advantage after passing because Reliant has more aft weapons).

Does a Constitution really have more volume, or is that just an eyeball guess? The saucer is the same, and the powerplant is physcially very small. Reliant gives more volume to shuttlebays (or whatever those things are) but if anything she's better armed, suggesting a better powerplant.

If Khan knew about the prefix code trick, he wouldn't have been suckerpunched by it.

edit:

Stark wrote:Does a Constitution really have more volume, or is that just an eyeball guess? The saucer is the same, and the powerplant is physcially very small. Reliant gives more volume to shuttlebays (or whatever those things are) but if anything she's better armed, suggesting a better powerplant.

It's a speculative estimate. The Connie is bigger thanks to the big secondary hull it has, but we don't know what that means exactly. It might have more space to carry cargo for long endurance missions, for example, which would fit its profile as a long term exploration vessel. It might have a bigger powerplant as well, but this may not mean the Connie is demonstrably superior. Reliant has two shuttlebays, but the Connie's secondary hull has more volume, so again it may not mean anything at all.

How much of the Constitution's secondary hull is powerplant? 25%, tops? The shuttlebay is nearly half of it. With the superstructure 'shoulders' of the Reliant, I think the only real question is if it's practial to fit a decent-sized warp powerplant so close to the impulse system (which I understand is under that circular feature at the rear of the saucer?) since they'll probably both have to squeeze in between the shuttlebays.

Stark wrote: Does a Constitution really have more volume, or is that just an eyeball guess?

This is a trick question, right? As you yourself say, the saucer is the same, and Reliant is curiously without the Engineering section the Constitution undeniably sports. I'd say that yes, that makes for a rather noticeable difference in volume.

The saucer is the same,

Um-that's the point. For Reliant, volume-wise, it's the saucer, the rollbar, the warp nacelles, and-um, wait, that's it, there isn't any more ship.
For the Constitution, there's all that Engineering hull to work with.

Are you stupid? Reliant has a large structure extending the saucer and building it up to more than double it's thickness at the back. When was the last time you saw this ship?

PROTIP: Reliant is not a Nebula class. Without factoring in the voidspace of shuttlebays in each class, I'd say the Reliant is actually larger.

Um-that's the point. For Reliant, volume-wise, it's the saucer, the rollbar, the warp nacelles, and-um, wait, that's it, there isn't any more ship.

You are so wrong that I'm glad you made this post.



NOTHING BUT SAUCER EXCLAMATION MARK

Kirk would have listened, might have raised the shields himself without needing a reminder of the regulations, had he not been flying a desk for however many years he'd been on the general staff. His command skills had clearly atrophied for him to get caught so flatfooted.

Otherwise, all other things being equal, Kirk would have won. Though the two starships are roughly on a par with one another in terms of firepower, the plain fact is that Khan and his motley crew were out of their depth. Even if they had had any of the ship's officers under eel control "advising" them, it would never have been enough to make up for the experiential gap. Also, at the time of the attack, he did not have any of the ship's senior officers with him. He'd already stuffed Terrell and Chekov in a locker on the Regula I station and the rest of the crew had been left behind on Ceti Alpha V, barring whomever he kept to run ship's vital systems, with eels riding in their skulls of course.

You can't even say that Khan was likely to do anything cagey like break low to maximise his better weapon arcs, because he's shown later being unprepared for space combat.

That said, it's possible full-size torps, carefully targeted, could have done some specific damage even through shields, but its so uncertain Khan's lack of skill is certainly more important.

Reliant approaches
Enterprise shields go up
Khan realises the element of surprise is gone

Option A) Khan tries to play coy for the E to lower her shields again.
"We have wounded aboard, can you transport some medical staff over"

Reliant guts the E while the shields are down and the movie continues as before

Option B) Khan attempts to brute force the E and opens fire
Given the timeframe the Reliant will either be directly ahead or coming along side the E thus the Reliant gets a full foreward salvo / broadside while the E has to go to full combat status to return fire.

I would assume the E will return fire as soon as that happens resulting in an inevitable shooting match. If Khan is smart the Reliant will accelerate and do a drive by broadside then launch rear torpedoes while the E has to either break off or swivel to bring her weapons to bear. By this time the Reliant should have already gotten her licks in and be coming around for another round.

Overall, the Reliant could get a first strike of 2 - 4 Torpedoes and a hail of phaser fire before the E is able to respond. I doubt that would be enough to overwhelm the E but I could see it causing enough damage to make the outcome based on superior tactics and manuvering. Something which Kirk should have the better ability to use due to his training vs Khan.
I suppose if the E gets hammered enough Kirk will flee and with no damage to the engines it becomes a question of wether or not the E is faster. Kirk could just high tail it to the Nebula and play out the same scene.

Khan's attempt at a sneaky con (the xyz coil is breaking our fluma fluma) was terrible and easily falsified, so I doubt he'd get Enterprises' shields down.

Stark wrote:Are you stupid? Reliant has a large structure extending the saucer and building it up to more than double it's thickness at the back. When was the last time you saw this ship?

It's admittedly been a good while ago but I seriously doubt that was enough to compensate for the added volume of the Constitution engineering hull.

PROTIP: Reliant is not a Nebula class.

Indeed she was not, she was a Miranda.

Without factoring in the voidspace of shuttlebays in each class, I'd say the Reliant is actually larger.

I'd brush up on my geometry if I were you then.

Um-that's the point. For Reliant, volume-wise, it's the saucer, the rollbar, the warp nacelles, and-um, wait, that's it, there isn't any more ship.

You are so wrong that I'm glad you made this post.

Compare the volume on the glue-ons to the Constitution saucer on Reliant to the volume of the Constitution engineering hull and get back to me.

Batman wrote:It's admittedly been a good while ago but I seriously doubt that was enough to compensate for the added volume of the Constitution engineering hull.

So when I said 'was this an eyeball estimate' the answer was 'yes' and not 'NERDRAGE'. Thanks.

I'd brush up on my geometry if I were you then.

So when you completely forgot the existence of the rear outrigger/shoulder pack, I should listen to your claims of mathematical superiority? PS, the rear section (outside the circle of the 'original' saucer) clearly has features suggesting this is where the powerplant lies. Not that you'd know, since you make authoritative statements based on hazy memories!

Compare the volume on the glue-ons to the Constitution saucer on Reliant to the volume of the Constitution engineering hull and get back to me.

Again, you probably should have said 'yeah my estimate says x is bigger than y' instead of being wrong on issues of fact. Nice try with responding to 'is it an eyeball estimate' with 'PROVE IT CONECESSION ACCEPTED LOL' though.

Unlike you, I'm apparently capable of judging the volume of the additions to the Constitution saucer as per TWOK's Reliant vs the volume of the Constitution's engineering section. One of us made an eyeball guesstimate and was way off but it sure as hell wasn't me.

For what it's worth, Ex-Astris-Scientia lists the refit Constitution class as being longer than the Miranda class.

Refit Constitution Class:
http://ex-astris-scientia.org/schematic ... ships1.htm

Miranda Class:
http://ex-astris-scientia.org/schematic ... ships2.htm

Man, you gotta learn to know when to shut the fuck up.

Does a Constitution really have more volume, or is that just an eyeball guess?

Um-that's the point. For Reliant, volume-wise, it's the saucer, the rollbar, the warp nacelles, and-um, wait, that's it, there isn't any more ship.

What's this, Captian No-Evidence-Doesn't-Really-Remember-The-Ship?



That's right; it has a 4-deck area more than half as large as the saucer, as well as a 3-deck area maybe half that size below it, outside the sweep of the 'original' saucer.

But nah, there's nothing but saucer and rollbar says a guy who can barely remember! Good thing he's both stupid and tryhard enough to answer a simple, open-handed question with OMG U NOOB IT SMALLR, right kids? The shoulder pack even results in recovering some useless volume at the rear of the saucer's upper nipple, and the engineering hull is maybe 25% as wide as the saucer, tops, and maybe twice as high as the 7-deck section here. Looks pretty close to me, particularly once accounting for the weapons pod and the more efficient shape, but then I'm actually looking at the ship and not some misty-eyed bullshit knee-jerk tryhard bullshit, so best ignore me.

EDIT- updated image with Batman-assistance scale indicator

1. I am not Batman

2. The links I posted above give the length of the refit Constitution class as 305 meters and the length of the Miranda class as 243 meters. Granted the numbers are from a fan site that, while seemingly well researched, is not itself cannon. Also, the source I mentioned did not give numbers for width. Nonetheless, without a better source that also includes numbers, I must side with Batman on the issue of whose estimate was more accurate.

Who the fuck cares about length you twat? They're talking about volume.