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I was just thinking, in "Q Who?" Q flings the Enterprise 7000 light years into System J-25 where they meet the Borg Cube. Data said that at maximum warp it would take more than 2 years to get to the nearest starbase. Is there any important stuff that could reshape the Alpha and Beta Quadrants in the time that it would take if they start to go back as soon as they arrived?

Crateria wrote:I was just thinking, in "Q Who?" Q flings the Enterprise 7000 light years into System J-25 where they meet the Borg Cube. Data said that at maximum warp it would take more than 2 years to get to the nearest starbase. Is there any important stuff that could reshape the Alpha and Beta Quadrants in the time that it would take if they start to go back as soon as they arrived?

Apart from the Federation having no warning that the Borg were coming? No, of course not.

Then what about a major disaster? Wasn't the Klingon Empire going into civil war two or so years later? or a planetary crisis (negative space wedgie of the week destroys a colony?)

There are lots of different things that could go wrong that are impossible to predict. Duras would probably succeed K'mpec as Chancellor, which would mean a pretty quick end to the Federation/klingon alliance and the start of a klingon/romulan partnership. The Enterprise would return home in a pretty tense enviroment politically.

...assuming that there still is a "Federation".

The Borg would succeed in their bid to assimilate/scavenge/[whatever their MO is at this point] Earth (without either Locutus or Data to make the cube sleep, Earth is a write off)

Even if we ignore Enterprise, The Borg were interested in the area of space as seen in The Neutral Zone, the Borg incursion was likely a foregone conclusion. In Q Who? Q was giving Picard (and lesser extent the Federation as a whole) a heads up.

"Hey, Just so you pacifist sissies know, that oversized 'petrified crouton' over there is coming to kill you and take an ice cream scoop to your planets."

If we go as far as to include the original concept for The Neutral Zone (where Romulus would've been "destroyed") that assumption makes sense.

If Picard chooses not to nose around (there by avoiding the cube, and the set up for Picard to ask Q for help.) When the E-D returns to Federation space, they'll likely find that the major planets have been scooped clean (assuming early TNG Borg) and the remnants of the Federation disintegrating to self serving nomadic bands preyed on by the Cardassians, Romulans, and the Duras lead Klingons. Oh and Cubes are flying around scooping up planets and seizing ships at leisure.

The only way it'd be grimmer is if we assume FC/Voyager Borg.

From what I remember about TNG: Redemption and reading the summary from Memory Alpha, the House of Duras was getting aid from the Romulans directly. Without Picard there, ADmiral Shanthi wanted to simply write the matter off as an internal Klingon affair, which would've ensured a Duras victory. Remember, it was La Forge who created the tachyon detection grid. Without that grid, it would've been impossible for Tasha Yar's Romulan love child to get through.

Interestingly enough, the year given for TNG: Q Who was 2365, and then apparently two years later, in TNG: The Best of Both Worlds, we have the Battle of Wolf 359, which is set in 2367. If Picard had refused to yield to Q, been assimilated by the Borg and Starfleet had no warning, I doubt it would matter what happened to the Klingon or Romulan empire. What you CAN be assured of is that in 2367, that would've been it. Without the Enterprise to shut down the Borg, the Borg would've made it to Earth, assimilated everyone, and that's it. The star that is humanity sets. Even if the Enterprise had escaped and returned to Federation space, I doubt the Federation would be able to do anything more than hope to rally behind Picard in the desperate attempt to hold off the Borg from further ripping them a new one, leading eventually to Riker McAdams and his scruffy beard of doom like we saw in TNG: Parallels.

Without the E-D the Borg overwhelm the major powers? Hmm, that's a grim future in store right there.

Then it gets worse if you consider that the Borg will interfere with the fluidic dimension, and then unleash Speicies 8472, which in turns means much of the galaxy is destroyed.

Alternatively...

One of the reasons I heard the Borg would do stupid stuff like send in one cube at a time was because they were coming up with more convoluted plans in order to get Q's attention. Then they would force his hand (I guess by overwhelming the Feds) and he'd intervene to protect them, then they'd capture him and assimilitate Q.

Then the Q-Borg would help turn everybody into Q-Borg and overrun the multiverse.

Crateria wrote: Alternatively...

One of the reasons I heard the Borg would do stupid stuff like send in one cube at a time was because they were coming up with more convoluted plans in order to get Q's attention. Then they would force his hand (I guess by overwhelming the Feds) and he'd intervene to protect them, then they'd capture him and assimilitate Q.

Then the Q-Borg would help turn everybody into Q-Borg and overrun the multiverse.

Holy fuck apparently this guy has met Robert Walper.

I'm sure he's just joking. If not, well.....

Anyways, Starfleet would not allow Picard to go back. Why would they want their flagship gone for almost half a decade? The E-D is too important to be sent of on a potential wild goose chase. I mean, would the cube stay in one place for two years? No. By the time the E-D arrives, the cube would be gone and the trail would be cold.

Darth Fanboy wrote:

Crateria wrote: Alternatively...

One of the reasons I heard the Borg would do stupid stuff like send in one cube at a time was because they were coming up with more convoluted plans in order to get Q's attention. Then they would force his hand (I guess by overwhelming the Feds) and he'd intervene to protect them, then they'd capture him and assimilitate Q.

Then the Q-Borg would help turn everybody into Q-Borg and overrun the multiverse.

Holy fuck apparently this guy has met Robert Walper.

You mean Borg-Wanker? Pfh, I've never met him directly. This is actually a theory I heard on TVTropes, and I don't believe the Borg could assimilate Q for that matter. I was just throwing the theory out there to see what I get, since its a rather scary future for the Trekverse.

And Enigma, is there any confirmation of Starfleet's communications reaching the big E? It seemed like Enterprise was all alone, and nobody knew about this. Starfleet wouldn't even have known E-D had left, let alone tell Picard what to do. Picard might not allow Q to transport them back simply because they don't trust him. Guinan was the one who had been there and she knew some of the stuff in the area ("If I were you, I'd start back right now"). Other than curiosity about J-25 (which now has been removed) he would have followed her advice.

Wild goose hunt? You mean the E-D would chase after the Borg Cube? Why would they chase after something they don't know even exists? BTW, are we taking earlier Borg encounters of the Federation as canon (in VOY and ENT)? Then I can understand the E-D needing to rush home to alert the Feds about the Borg, but otherwise why would the Borg even go after the Alpha Quadrant powers? The only other example besides the Cube encounter (which won't likely happen if they head back immediately) is the destruction of the outposts in the Neutral Zone. I don't know whether or not that is enough to provoke the Borg.
Wasn't there a theory around here that the phasers were made more powerful by Q? Combine the powerful phasers with Q helping the ED escape and then you have the Borg wanting this non-existent technology.

Crateria wrote:BTW, are we taking earlier Borg encounters of the Federation as canon (in VOY and ENT)?

Much as many among us would prefer to forget that VOY and ENT ever aired, they are unfortunately canon according to Paramount's official policy:

Memory Alpha on ST canon wrote:The Star Trek canon is generally defined as all live-action television series and feature films released by Paramount Pictures. With the release of Star Trek: The Animated Series on DVD, the studio appears to have changed its stance, and is now listing the cartoon series (aired 1973–1974), as a part of established canon. The various "official" references (such as the Star Trek Encyclopedia or the Star Trek Chronology) may be used as a guide to canon information, but are not canon in and of themselves.

Crateria wrote:<snip>

And Enigma, is there any confirmation of Starfleet's communications reaching the big E? It seemed like Enterprise was all alone, and nobody knew about this. Starfleet wouldn't even have known E-D had left, let alone tell Picard what to do. Picard might not allow Q to transport them back simply because they don't trust him. Guinan was the one who had been there and she knew some of the stuff in the area ("If I were you, I'd start back right now"). Other than curiosity about J-25 (which now has been removed) he would have followed her advice.

Wild goose hunt? You mean the E-D would chase after the Borg Cube? Why would they chase after something they don't know even exists? BTW, are we taking earlier Borg encounters of the Federation as canon (in VOY and ENT)? Then I can understand the E-D needing to rush home to alert the Feds about the Borg, but otherwise why would the Borg even go after the Alpha Quadrant powers? The only other example besides the Cube encounter (which won't likely happen if they head back immediately) is the destruction of the outposts in the Neutral Zone. I don't know whether or not that is enough to provoke the Borg.
Wasn't there a theory around here that the phasers were made more powerful by Q? Combine the powerful phasers with Q helping the ED escape and then you have the Borg wanting this non-existent technology.

I had the assumption you meant that after Q returned the E-D back to it's original location that you meant that the E-D would warp back to the Cube. I guess I was wrong. Ignore my previous post then.

Enigma wrote:
I had the assumption you meant that after Q returned the E-D back to it's original location that you meant that the E-D would warp back to the Cube. I guess I was wrong. Ignore my previous post then.

Why would they rush back to go fight the Cube? It just kicked their asses, for cripes sake. If they wanted to die so badly they'd just ask Q to return them to the battle, and he'd be all like "wtflol. y would u want to die after i just saved your asses? thats stupid. but ok." and send them back. Then TNG would be no more.

Crateria wrote:

Enigma wrote:
I had the assumption you meant that after Q returned the E-D back to it's original location that you meant that the E-D would warp back to the Cube. I guess I was wrong. Ignore my previous post then.

Why would they rush back to go fight the Cube? It just kicked their asses, for cripes sake. If they wanted to die so badly they'd just ask Q to return them to the battle, and he'd be all like "wtflol. y would u want to die after i just saved your asses? thats stupid. but ok." and send them back. Then TNG would be no more.

If that also eliminates VOY and ENT then for the greater good the TNG must die!

EDIT: I also have reading comprehension issues.

Q's main idea was to warn Picard about the Borg. If they tried to just bounce he might very well turn Enterprise's warp nacelles into giant Twinkies so they're around for the rendezvous with the Cube. He wasn't just playing a practical joke on Picard.

CaptHawkeye wrote:Q's main idea was to warn Picard about the Borg. If they tried to just bounce he might very well turn Enterprise's warp nacelles into giant Twinkies so they're around for the rendezvous with the Cube. He wasn't just playing a practical joke on Picard.

What if the Cube doesn't come looking for the big E? I thought the Cube detected it when they arrived over the sixth planet. Of course this is dependent on both Picard still not trusting Q and the Cube approaching the ED.

Alternatively, what if the Borg never show up, but the Dominion still do? Does the Federation lose the war?

You're dealing with too many variables. Sisko was on the Saratoga at Wolf 359. His ship was destroyed. Ergo, he worked on the Defiant project at Mars Utopia Planetia. Ergo, he was offered the assignment to go to Bajor. Once there he decides to check out that spot where the orbs supposedly came from and discovered the wormhole. If not for him, the wormhole aliens wouldn't let people cross the wormhole.

If the Saratoga hadn't been destroyed, where's the impetus for Sisko to transfer to Bajor years later when the job came up? He could be Captain of it after that Vulcan Martok guy or maybe get a command of his own, or do a Riker and just stay as XO forever. When the Bajor job comes up, who's to say Sisko's name would come up as a recommendation for it over someone else? If Sisko doesn't go to Bajor, does the wormhole even get discovered? If it does, can anyone negotiate with the wormhole aliens to allow it to be traversed? And so on.

I mean the entire scenario is flawed anyway - Picard practically double dared Q to do what he did, and Q did it purposefully as Hawx said. Picard said 'we're ready to face the unknown' and Q smirked and showed them they weren't. The scenario simply can't work, but it is really one of the most important events to ever occur in TNG because almost literally EVERY major event that happens subsequently will be affected by it.

I simply have to agree. So much hinges on Wolf 359 that taking it out of the equation rewrites every single episode of Trek after that point. The Federation used Wolf 359 as a wake-up call, that their continued expansion without some form of military protection was insane. With the Borg threat looming they were facing the situation that the military was suddenly very important, not to expand militarily or engage in cold-war activities, but simply to keep an enemy at bay. This increased militarism led to probably an expansion of the ship-building facilities around Mars, which meant the Fleet could grow not simply in terms of ships built per year, but in how many ships could be refitted. Remember, the Excelsior Class had been in use since Kirk's day, and was still the workhorse of the fleet. Many would undoubtedly be old, and probably in need of an overhaul. More berths lets them do more ships at the same time.

Also, like Stofsk pointed out, without Sisko being on the Saratoga, he has no real reason to bounce around from place to place. Without the threat of the Borg, there would be no Defiant, no expansion into the Gamma Quadrant, no war with the Dominion. Which, if you'll recall, was the main reason the Klingons and Federation got back together, because the Cardassians allied with them. The Klingons broke off the alliance with the Federation because the Cardassians were basically on the verge of a shooting war. While a larger fleet presence would help the Federation threaten to intervene between the two, without the build-up after Wolf 359, the Federation is basically at a diminished capacity to intervene directly. That means the Klingons would've ground another major player in the Alpha Quadrant to dust, leading to a much larger Empire and a threat to the Federation now against two seperate fronts. It would be difficult for the Federation, but given that the Duras sisters wanted to ally with the Romulans again, that would've put the two largest military powers against the single Federation.

And that's not even counting what would happen with ships like Voyager. The Maquis wouldn't be a problem because they'd most likely be running to Starfleet trying to sign up fast so that the Klingons don't come after them. The Cardassians were a threat, yes, but the Klingons have cloak, meaning they can send Birds of Prey to follow the Maquis, who would think they're safe and retreat to their base only to give themselves away. And if the Federation did go to war with the Klingons and Romulans, we'd probably see cloaking devices on Federation ships for the first time. It's hard to justify a huge tactical advantage just because you signed a treaty with a foreign power you're now at war with. This is mostly speculation but it's speculation I have a good feeling about, given how we've seen the three powers. The mention to Voyager earlier refers to Voyager's original mission, to hunt the Maquis. More likely, Voyager would've been built as just another ship to bolster the fleet or go on patrol, exploration taking a back seat to the problems the Federation has on its plate.

I'll finish up by pointing out that when you're trying to predict something, you have to know a good deal of the past (which we have gaps in between Kirk's age and Picard's) and then you have to take any predictions with a grain of salt. Close to the point you're at, you can get a fairly accurate prediction, but the further you go, the higher the chance you're just plain wrong. I know someone's going to say I'm probably going at this all wrong and that's fine. The issue isn't what will happen several years after the episode in question. This is just an example of how bad things could go.

Why would the Klingons attack the Cardassians if the wormhole was never discovered? The whole Dominion discovery and the subsequent overthrow of the Cardassian government was what prompted the invasion in the first place.

Even if somehow the Klingons decided to attack the Cardassians, Cardassia would still be under the control of the Central Command and the Obsidian Order would still be around. The war could turn into a longer drawn out conflict which would actually play into the Federation's favor as two of it's major adversaries are now weakening each other.

But if we assume that Duras successfully takes control of the Klingon Empire, Cardassia will not be on the radar screen as far as the Klingon military targets go. It will be the Federation which will be prime target if the Romulans are on the side of the Klingons. The Cardassians would probably get involved on the Federation's side at some point for no other reason that the current 4 power balance of power is in their best interests. The Cardassians don't want any part of an Alpha Quadrant that is dominated by the Romulans and Klingons.

Uh-oh, this topic was already made like some ways back. I request one of the mods to lock this.

Can we also lock up Jason B?

Baffalo wrote:Can we also lock up Jason B?

Hasn't he been banned already? If so, why not? His words make the alphabet throw up.